the lake of fire, the second death as spiritual death?

DrBubbaLove · Nov 21, 2015

he-man said:
Is that an intended pun? There is no eternal torment in the proper sense but the torment is everlasting because they know they will never see the face of God in the future. 2Th 1:9 who shall pay the penalty of destruction everlasting from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his might, 2Pe 2:1 But there were false prophets also among the people, as there shall be also among you false teachers, who shall bring in by the bye destructive heresies, and deny the master that bought them, bringing upon themselves swift destruction;
There is no raising from the dead for those who receive immediate destruction but only those who have known the truth and rejected it will be resurrected for judgment.
2Pe 2:21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them. Only those who are righteous shall never see eternal death! Pro 12:28 In the way of righteousness is life; and in the pathway thereof there is no death.
What happens to the bad? Mat 13:47 Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto a net, that was cast into the sea, and gathered of every kind:
Mat 13:48 Which, when it was full, they drew to shore, and sat down, and gathered the good into vessels, but cast the bad away.
Mat 13:49 So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,

While I do typically find your posts hilarious I have never imagined those being puns. I agree the suffering of the damned is in part because they have been eternally left to what their heart desired in this life - themselves. How that expression is funny or a pun as a summary of the orthodox view am not sure.

There is no possible way to talk about God is Just and claim wicked people simply cease to exist when they die. We have history books recording in graphic detail the deeds of men, some of whom perhaps did suffer some and hopefully for what they did. But there is no way to look at what we can do as people and declare that Justice is served by making some of us cease to exist. The only way to restore Justice is those people must pay for what they have done and it is not possible to talk about ceasing to exist as making them pay for it. And that there is great evil in this world and great injustice that can totally unrewarded is a main driving point behind defending against the thought of making people go poof as there Just reward.

he-man · Nov 22, 2015

DrBubbaLove said:
There is no possible way to talk about God is Just and claim wicked people simply cease to exist when they die. .

Oh Really? Revelation 21:8 But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.'

DrBubbaLove · Nov 22, 2015

he-man said:
Oh Really? Revelation 21:8 But the cowardly, unbelieving, abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.'

Am unclear how you intend anyone to think that verse means more to you than what you claim it does - that people cease to exist in Hell. My statement which you quoted had nothing to do with whether it is true the damned can cease to exist or whether you can find Scripture to claim support for such a notion or even whether they deserve that end (of course they do but). The quote you focused on says there is no way to view the damned ceasing to exist and imagine that somehow magically restores the imbalance from the injustices of those lives we ALL can clearly see in this life. Hitler going "poof" if that will happen is not going to be particularly satisfying to a lot of folks and that doesn't even address the imbalance of Justice that a "poof" of Hitler could possibly account for. And for similar reasons if we say let Hitler roast until "done" then ask him to recite the sinners prayer to be "saved" (as if that would occur after roasting or would be a "love" desired by God) we still would not be considering the injustice of stretching his roasting out. So the restoration of Justice does not work in either view, though certainly far less so with "poof". At least with slow roasting some concept of making it right is imaginable. And no as an RCC I cannot claim to know what fate Hitler has inherited Adam's or Jesus. I can strongly suspect it does not look good for him, but I cannot know (unless God revealed he is right now to me of course- which God could do).

So your reply does not even address the quote of my post you gave us. Not that I think everyone here has a habit of staying on topic or even posting something remotely relevant to what others I have said. I try to and would ask others to do the same when replying directly to me. Thanks.

he-man · Nov 23, 2015

DrBubbaLove said:
Am unclear how you intend anyone to think that verse means more to you than what you claim it does - that people cease to exist in Hell.

here is a major part of the problem, and it IS NOT THE LANGUAGE itself. The problem is “the scholar.”
The student must face the fact that the majority of what he is taught is mostly the preference and opinion of the particular teacher/grammarian he studies under. The student must deal with the fact that virtually no “scholar” of NT Greek will tell him the truth about this chaos, confusion, and HOAX.
A proper teaching of the NT Greek, or any other language for that matter, is done at first without ANY GRAMMAR. A student should not be confused and burdened with nonsense “grammar” until the student can learn that grammar IN the language itself. [Copyright 2013 Koiné Bible] the future punishment of sin is clearly defined as,death and destruction.) {non occ.)
2Th 1:9 οιτινες δίκην τίσουσιν ὄλεθρον αιώνιον απὸ προσώπου του Κυρίου καὶ απὸ της δόξης της ισχύος αυτου,
δικη, right, esp. a judicial process, justice, vengeance.
, to hold worth, honour, to pay for a wrong done. Here, " a penalty shall pay "— 2 Thes. i. 9.
*ολεθριος [for ολεθρος , 2Thes. i.9, see ' Destruction."] destruction,
Koine is now a dead language, but it is the unchanged language spoken by Jesus and the apostles, so to alter it to fit modern day perceptions is a sinful attempt to alter the INSPIRED word of God.
ασβεστος ,uuquenched ; used of fire, that which cannot be put out, not necessarily that which will never go out. ["In Homer the word is applied to undying fame, prolonged laughter, the incessant roar of the ocean, and indefatigable strength. So in the Prophets, it is used of a fire that has gone out, but which could not be put out until it had consumed all that on which it fed, thus denoting the inevitable destruction and the eternal result of such an awful punishment.
See 2 Kings xxii. 17 ; Is. xxxiv, 8-10; Jer. vii. 20; xvii. 27 ; Ezek. XX. 47, 48; and Jude 7. With this agrees the solemn declaration of the Lord Jesus here (Matt. iii.12 ; Luke iii.17) that " He will BURN UP the chaff with unquenchable fire."] (occ. Mark ix. 43, 45.) Matt. iii. 12. I Luke iii. 17.

Jer 13:14 And I will dash them one against another, even the fathers and the sons together, saith the LORD: I will not pity, nor spare, nor have mercy, but destroy them.
κόλασις PUNISH (-ED.) to curtail, dock, prune, but visually like Lat., castigare, to keep within bounds, check, chastise; pass., to be punished, generally.(In N.T. enemy of God.)
Deu 29:20 The LORD will not spare him, but then the anger of the LORD and his jealousy shall smoke against that man, and all the curses that are written in this book shall lie upon him, and the LORD shall blot out his name from under heaven.
Ps 31:18 Let the lying lips be put to silence; which speak grievous things proudly and contemptuously against the righteous
Ps 31:17 Let me not be ashamed, O LORD; for I have called upon thee: let the wicked be ashamed, and let them be silent in the grave.
1Sa 2:9 He will keep the feet of his saints, and the wicked shall be silent in darkness; for by strength shall no man prevail.
Php 3:19 Whose end is destruction, whose God is their belly, and whose glory is in their shame, who mind earthly things.)
Luk 12:46 The lord of that servant will come in a day when he looketh not for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in sunder, and will appoint him his portion with the unbelievers.
Job 20:29 This is the portion of a wicked man from God, and the heritage appointed unto him by God.[/QUOTE]

rjs330 · Dec 9, 2015

The punishment of the non believer is absolutely an eternity in hell. Jesus says the fire is not quenched. It doesn't go out. He said in Matt18:8 that it's better to cut off body parts than to suffer the ETERNAL fire.

Matt 25:26 Jesus says the believers have eternal life and the unbelievers have eternal punishment.

Jude 7 refers to eternal fire and 12-13 talks of black darkness forever and ever

The words forever and ever are words used for God having glory and being in the Throne. They are the same words used for punishment in hell. Rev 19:13 states the smoke rises for ever and ever. Rev 20:10 states the torment lasts forever and ever.

This is exactly why it is so important to turn to Christ. This is why it's so important for us to share the gospel. Jesus spoke more about hell than heaven. We don't understand the torment of hell anymore than we understand the glory of heaven.

Ezra Dillon · Dec 10, 2015

playbluebabble said:
Anybody else see it that way, and what to you is spiritual death? Do you think you will have a spiritual death? Is the lake of fire also the baptism of fire spoken of when it is said "all will go through the fire, some as though those who lose everything as escaping from a burning house, some who will keep everything"?

To me, this seems like the death of what people call "the ego", the false "self" (or soul) which is built up on sin replacing what the soul should be -- free and unencumbered.

It says "some only their spirits will survive", and to me that means that in becoming one with Christ, spiritually, they lose their past experiences, their ego, and everything that was tied to that. Their status, their spiritual investments which were tied up in material things.

The idea, for them, becoming from one thing to another is horrible, because ultimately they see Christ as someone else, and they do not wish to become a part of the Body of Christ.

I would guess while many who have a vast ego really try and avoid even thinking about such a thing - and may even already consider themselves part of the body of Christ - that this must be something they really badly do not wish to have happen.

No, yes, thoughts, comments?

I like the way that you have said these things. I have read multiple posts about peoples beliefs merging the body and the earth with the soul and the heaven. What is real? What will be? I like the ideology that there is no real difference, but perspective and God make us bring up new ideas or movements like Revelation. Judge others as you would be Judged.

Ezra Dillon · Dec 10, 2015

dollarsbill said:
Death does not mean 'cease to exist'. There's not a shred of proof of this in the Bible. The dead still live in EVERY case.

I would like to know what the difference between a person being declared dead on Earth and dying is? A person who is meant not exist may perish in a scientific sense? And our pursuit of life and multiplicity is but a factor of God's punishment? I thought this but I do not agree. Death is a product of Sin, so with the burning of Death and Hell and the harlot, and Satan, and the False Prophets, and demons, etc. then these parts of life which are prevalent but not true will perish leaving man in a state of renewed perfection...If Jesus comes to us in Body, then supposedly Satan will be of body, and supposedly the sea of fire may be of physical domain....God has powers of heaven to create and to destroy and perhaps may be able to destroy without a physical death?

Ezra Dillon · Dec 10, 2015

Christian's have physically removed demons before and in fact do to this day...The times of Revelation are powerful with the Coming of God and Christ

Ezra Dillon · Dec 10, 2015

he-man · Dec 13, 2015

rjs330 said:
The punishment of the non believer is absolutely an eternity in hell. Jesus says the fire is not quenched. It doesn't go out. He said in Matt18:8 that it's better to cut off body parts than to suffer the ETERNAL fire. Matt 25:26 Jesus says the believers have eternal life and the unbelievers have eternal punishment. Jude 7 refers to eternal fire and 12-13 talks of black darkness forever and ever The words forever and ever are words used for God having glory and being in the Throne. They are the same words used for punishment in hell. Rev 19:13 states the smoke rises for ever and ever. Rev 20:10 states the torment lasts forever and ever.
This is exactly why it is so important to turn to Christ. This is why it's so important for us to share the gospel. Jesus spoke more about hell than heaven. We don't understand the torment of hell anymore than we understand the glory of heaven.

De 29:20 The LORD will not spare him, but then the anger of the LORD and his jealousy shall smoke against that man, and all the curses that are written in this book shall lie upon him, and the LORD shall blot out his name from under heaven.
Ps 18:8 There went up a smoke out of his nostrils, and[ ]fire out of his mouth devoured: coals were kindled by it.
Ps 37:20 But the wicked shall perish, and the enemies of the LORD shall be as the fat of lambs: they shall consume; into smoke shall they consume away.
Re 11:5 And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed.
as the fat of lambs: Hebrew preciousness, That is, as the fat was wholly consumed sacrifices, by the fire on the altar, so the wicked shall consume away in the fire of God's anger. De 33:14-16 [TSK]

rjs330 · Dec 15, 2015

he-man said:
De 29:20 The LORD will not spare him, but then the anger of the LORD and his jealousy shall smoke against that man, and all the curses that are written in this book shall lie upon him, and the LORD shall blot out his name from under heaven.
Ps 18:8 There went up a smoke out of his nostrils, and[ ]fire out of his mouth devoured: coals were kindled by it.
Ps 37:20 But the wicked shall perish, and the enemies of the LORD shall be as the fat of lambs: they shall consume; into smoke shall they consume away.
Re 11:5 And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed.
as the fat of lambs: Hebrew preciousness, That is, as the fat was wholly consumed sacrifices, by the fire on the altar, so the wicked shall consume away in the fire of God's anger. De 33:14-16 [TSK]

None of those scriptures disprove eternal punishment. In fact they enhance the argument how awful the punishment in hell will be. God HATES sin and those that rebel against God will face his righteous wrath. He will have NO mercy towards them.

It is a dreadful thing to to fall into the hands of a living God. Heb 10:31

he-man · Dec 16, 2015

rjs330 said:
None of those scriptures disprove eternal punishment. In fact they enhance the argument how awful the punishment in hell will be. God HATES sin and those that rebel against God will face his righteous wrath. He will have NO mercy towards them. It is a dreadful thing to to fall into the hands of a living God. Heb 10:31

It proves that the punishment to be handed out is to perish and be consumed eternally just like the smoke that disappears they will exist no more but will be vaporized into nothingless.
Ps 37:20 But the wicked shall perish, and the enemies of the LORD shall be as the fat of lambs: they shall consume; into smoke shall they consume away.

LittleLambofJesus · Aug 13, 2019

playbluebabble said:
Anybody else see it that way, and what to you is spiritual death? Do you think you will have a spiritual death? Is the lake of fire also the baptism of fire spoken of when it is said "all will go through the fire, some as though those who lose everything as escaping from a burning house, some who will keep everything"?

To me, this seems like the death of what people call "the ego", the false "self" (or soul) which is built up on sin replacing what the soul should be -- free and unencumbered.

It says "some only their spirits will survive", and to me that means that in becoming one with Christ, spiritually, they lose their past experiences, their ego, and everything that was tied to that. Their status, their spiritual investments which were tied up in material things.

The idea, for them, becoming from one thing to another is horrible, because ultimately they see Christ as someone else, and they do not wish to become a part of the Body of Christ.

I would guess while many who have a vast ego really try and avoid even thinking about such a thing - and may even already consider themselves part of the body of Christ - that this must be something they really badly do not wish to have happen.

No, yes, thoughts, comments?

rjs330 said:
The punishment of the non believer is absolutely an eternity in hell. Jesus says the fire is not quenched. It doesn't go out. He said in Matt18:8 that it's better to cut off body parts than to suffer the ETERNAL fire.
Matt 25:26 Jesus says the believers have eternal life and the unbelievers have eternal punishment.

ude 7 refers to eternal fire and 12-13 talks of black darkness forever and ever
The words forever and ever are words used for God having glory and being in the Throne. They are the same words used for punishment in hell. Rev 19:13 states the smoke rises for ever and ever. Rev 20:10 states the torment lasts forever and ever.

This is exactly why it is so important to turn to Christ. This is why it's so important for us to share the gospel. Jesus spoke more about hell than heaven. We don't understand the torment of hell anymore than we understand the glory of heaven.

Great topic.
One Christian's view:

Is the "GEHENNA" of Matt 23:33 the "LAKE OF FIRE" in Revelation? Poll thread

Rev 2:11
“He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. He who overcomes shall not be hurt by the second death.” '

Rev 20:
6
Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. Over such the second death has no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years.
14
Then Death and Hades were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.[fn]

Rev 21:8
“But the cowardly, unbelieving,[fn] abominable, murderers, sexually immoral, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.”
====================
Revelation 2:11 He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. The one who is victorious will not be harmed by the second death.

Pulpit Commentary
Verse 11. - He that hath an ear (see on ver. 7). Shall not be hurt of the second death; more literally, shall in no wise be injured at the hands of the second death. The negative is the strongest form; the injury seems to be of the nature of a wrong, and the second death is regarded as the source of the wrong (οὐ μὴ ἀδικηθῇ ἐκ). In Revelation 20:6 "the second death" is almost personified, as here: "Over these the second death has no authority." The phrase is peculiar to this book (see Revelation 20:14 and Revelation 21:8, where it is defined to be "the lake of fire"). The corresponding phrase, "the first death," does not occur. The one is the death of the body, to which the faithful Smyrnaeans must submit; the other is the death of the soul, from which the crown of life secures them: though they die, yet shall they live, and shall in no wise die, forever (John 11:25, 26). This second death, or death of the soul, is absolute exclusion from God, who is the Source of eternal life. The expression, "the second death," seems to be borrowed from Jewish theological phraseology. (On the repetition of the article, "the death, the second (death)," see note on ver. 13.)
==============================
Ellicott's Commentary for English Readers
(11) He that overcometh (or conquereth) shall not be hurt.—The words used are precise, and give certainty to the promise.
The second death.—This phrase is a new one in Bible language. It is said that Jews were familiar with it through its use in the Chaldee Paraphrase. It clearly points to a death which is other than that of the body; it stands in contrast with the crown of life. The expressions of Revelation 20:14; Revelation 21:8, exclude the idea that a cessation of conscious existence is intended. The life of the spirit is the knowledge of God (John 17:3); the death of the spirit, or the second death, is the decay or paralysis of the powers by which such a knowledge was possible, and the experience of the awfulness of a life which is “without God.”
===================
Expositor's Greek Testament
Revelation 2:11. οὐ μὴ (emphatic): no true Christian, much less one who dies a martyr’s death, need fear anything beyond the pang of the first death. The second death of condemnation in the lake of fire leaves the faithful scatheless, no matter how others may suffer from the terrors (cf. on Revelation 3:12) which haunted the ancient outlook (especially the Egyptian) upon the dark interval between death and heaven. Cf. the sketch of Ani, seated on his throne and robed in white, holding sceptre and staff, and crying: “I am not held to be a person of no account, and violence shall not be done me. I am thy son, O Great One, and I have seen the hidden things that belong to thee. I am crowned king of the gods, and shall not die a second time in the underworld” (E. B. D. 99). If a Christian keep himself loyal till death, the prophet here guarantees that Christ will keep him safe after death. After the promise of Revelation 2:10 however, this sounds like an anticlimax. The general tenor of the message indicates that John was rather more cordial and sympathetic to the Smyrniote church than to the Ephesian.

BukiRob · Aug 13, 2019

he-man said:
It proves that the punishment to be handed out is to perish and be consumed eternally just like the smoke that disappears they will exist no more but will be vaporized into nothingless.
Ps 37:20 But the wicked shall perish, and the enemies of the LORD shall be as the fat of lambs: they shall consume; into smoke shall they consume away.

This is a real pet peeve for me... MAN IS MORTAL. Paul tells us that we " PUT ON IMMORTALITY" You do not PUT ON something if you already possess it... indeed Paul teaches that it is YESHUA who GIVES us this immortality. Hence, if you are an unbeliever you are MORTAL and we are CLEARLY told that the LOF is the SECOND DEATH... that which is DEAD DOES NOT HAVE ANY LIFE. Such a position does two things that are an error... #1 there is no logical consistency, #2 it is coopting pagan concepts and #3 it is completely IGNORING what is clear in the text...

Der Alte · Aug 13, 2019

BukiRob said:
This is a real pet peeve for me... MAN IS MORTAL. Paul tells us that we " PUT ON IMMORTALITY" You do not PUT ON something if you already possess it... indeed Paul teaches that it is YESHUA who GIVES us this immortality. Hence, if you are an unbeliever you are MORTAL and we are CLEARLY told that the LOF is the SECOND DEATH... that which is DEAD DOES NOT HAVE ANY LIFE. Such a position does two things that are an error... #1 there is no logical consistency, #2 it is coopting pagan concepts and #3 it is completely IGNORING what is clear in the text...

If what you say is correct then we should not be able to find any occurrences in the Bible of unrighteous people somehow alive speaking, moving etc. But there are 3 passages, 2 OT 1 NT, which show unrighteous show unrighteous people with some kind of conscious awareness speaking, moving etc.
…..In Isa 14 there is a long passage about the king of Babylon dying, according to many the dead know nothing. They are supposedly annihilated, destroyed, pfft, gone! But God, Himself, speaking, these dead people in שאול/sheol, know something, they move, meet the dead coming to sheol, stir up, raise up, speak and say, etc.

Isa 14:9-11 (KJV)
9) Hell [שאול ] from beneath is moved for thee to meet thee at thy coming: it stirreth up the dead for thee, even all the chief ones of the earth; it hath raised up from their thrones all the kings of the nations.
10) All they shall speak and say unto thee, Art thou also become weak as we? art thou become like unto us?
11) Thy pomp is brought down to the grave, [שאול] and the noise of thy viols: the worm is spread under thee, and the worms cover thee.
[ . . . ]
22) For I will rise up against them, saith the LORD of hosts, and cut off from Babylon the name, and remnant, and son, and nephew, saith the LORD.

In this passage God, himself is speaking, and I see a whole lot of shaking going on, moving, rising up, and speaking in . These dead people seem to know something, about something. We know that verses 11 through 14 describe actual historical events, the death of Nebuchadnezzar, king of Babylon.
…..Some will argue that this passage is figurative because fir trees don’t literally rejoice, vs. 8. They will argue that the passage must be figurative since God told Israel “take up this proverb against the king of Babylon.” vs. 4. The occurrence of one figurative expression in a passage does not prove that anything else in the passage is figurative.
…..The Hebrew word םשל/mashal translated “proverb” does not necessarily mean something is fictional. For example, Israel did not become fictional when God made them a mashal/proverb in 2 Chronicles 7:20, Psalms 44:14, and Jeremiah 24:9.
…..The jews considered this passage to be factual.

Jewish Encyclopedia-Gehenna
“When Nebuchadnezzar descended into hell, all its inhabitants were afraid that he was coming to rule over them (Shab. 149a; comp. Isa. xiv. 9-10).”
GEHENNA - JewishEncyclopedia.com

Here is another passage where God, Himself, is speaking and people who are dead in sheol, speaking, being ashamed, comforted, etc.

Ezek 32:18-22, 30-31 (KJV)
18) Son of man, [Ezekiel] wail for the multitude of Egypt, and cast them down, even her, and the daughters of the famous nations, unto the nether parts of the earth, with them that go down into the pit.
19) Whom dost thou pass in beauty? go down, and be thou laid with the uncircumcised.
20) They shall fall in the midst of them that are slain by the sword: she is delivered to the sword: draw her and all her multitudes.
21) The strong among the mighty shall speak to him out of the midst of hell [שאול] with them that help him: they are gone down, they lie uncircumcised, slain by the sword.
22) Asshur is there and all her company: his graves are about him: all of them slain, fallen by the sword::[ . . . ]
Eze 32:30-31
(30) There be the princes of the north, all of them, and all the Zidonians, which are gone down with the slain; with their terror they are ashamed of their might; and they lie uncircumcised with them that be slain by the sword, and bear their shame with them that go down to the pit.
(31) Pharaoh shall see them, and shall be comforted over all his multitude, even Pharaoh and all his army slain by the sword, saith the Lord GOD.

Jesus speaking, in the NT a dead man in Hades had eyes, was in torment, saw Abraham, “cried and said,” asked for water, begged Abraham, etc.

Luk 16:22-28
(22) And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;
(23) And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
(24) And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
(25) But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.
(26) And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.
(27) Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house:
(28) For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.

All of the ECF who quote or refer to the story of Lazarus and the rich man considered it factual.

• Irenaeus Against Heresies Book II Chapter XXXIV.-Souls Can Be Recognised in the Separate State, and are Immortal Although They Once Had a Beginning.
Ireneaeus, [120-202 AD], was a student of Polycarp, who was a student of John.
1. The Lord has taught with very great fulness, that souls not only continue to exist, not by passing from body to body, but that they preserve the same form [in their separate state] as the body had to which they were adapted, and that they remember the deeds which they did in this state of existence, and from which they have now ceased,-in that narrative which is recorded respecting the rich man and that Lazarus who found repose in the bosom of Abraham. In this account He states that Dives [=Latin for rich] knew Lazarus after death, and Abraham in like manner, and that each one of these persons continued in his own proper position , and that [Dives] requested Lazarus to be sent to relieve him-[Lazarus], on whom he did not [formerly] bestow even the crumbs [which fell] from his table.
ANF01. The Apostolic Fathers with Justin Martyr and Irenaeus | Christian Classics Ethereal Library
• Clement of Alexandria [A.D. 153-193-217] The Instructor [Paedagogus] Book 1
On the Resurrection.
This was the day. “And a certain poor man named Lazarus was laid at the rich man’s gate, full of sores, desiring to be filled with the crumbs which fell from the rich man’s table.” This is the grass. Well, the rich man was punished in Hades, being made partaker of the fire; while the other flourished again in the Father’s bosom.
• Tertullian A Treatise On The Soul [A.D. 145-220.]
In hell the soul of a certain man is in torment, punished in flames, suffering excruciating thirst, and imploring from the finger of a happier soul, for his tongue, the solace of a drop of water. Do you suppose that this end of the blessed poor man and the miserable rich man is only imaginary? Then why the name of Lazarus in this narrative, if the circumstance is not in (the category of) a real occurrence? But even if it is to be regarded as imaginary, it will still be a testimony to truth and reality . For unless the soul possessed corporeality, the image of a soul could not possibly contain a finger of a bodily substance; nor would the Scripture feign a statement about the limbs of a body, if these had no existence.
• Tertullian Part First A Treatise On The Soul Chapter 57
9. Moreover, the fact that Hades is not in any case opened for (the escape of) any soul , has been firmly established by the Lord in the person of Abraham, in His representation of the poor man at rest and the rich man in torment.
• The Epistles Of Cyprian [A.D. 200-258] Epistle 54 To Cornelius, Concerning Fortunatus And Felicissimus, Or Against The Heretics
Whence also that rich sinner who implores help from Lazarus, then laid in Abraham’s bosom, and established in a place of comfort, while he, writhing in torments, is consumed by the heats of burning flame, suffers most punishment of all parts of his body in his mouth and his tongue, because doubtless in his mouth and his tongue he had most sinned.
• Methodius Fragments On The History Of Jonah [A.D. 260-312]
But souls, being rational bodies, are arranged by the Maker and Father of all things into members which are visible to reason, having received this impression. Whence, also, in Hades, as in the case of Lazarus and the rich man, they are spoken of as having a tongue, and a finger, and the other members; not as though they had with them another invisible body, but that the souls themselves, naturally, when entirely stripped of their covering, are such according to their essence.

BukiRob · Aug 13, 2019

Der Alter said:
If what you say is correct then we should not be able to find any occurrences in the Bible of unrighteous people somehow alive speaking, moving etc. But there are 3 passages, 2 OT 1 NT, which show unrighteous show unrighteous people with some kind of conscious awareness speaking, moving etc.
…..In Isa 14 there is a long passage about the king of Babylon dying, according to many the dead know nothing. They are supposedly annihilated, destroyed, pfft, gone! But God, Himself, speaking, these dead people in שאול/sheol, know something, they move, meet the dead coming to sheol, stir up, raise up, speak and say, etc.

Isa 14:9-11 (KJV)
9) Hell [שאול ] from beneath is moved for thee to meet thee at thy coming: it stirreth up the dead for thee, even all the chief ones of the earth; it hath raised up from their thrones all the kings of the nations.
10) All they shall speak and say unto thee, Art thou also become weak as we? art thou become like unto us?
11) Thy pomp is brought down to the grave, [שאול] and the noise of thy viols: the worm is spread under thee, and the worms cover thee.
[ . . . ]
22) For I will rise up against them, saith the LORD of hosts, and cut off from Babylon the name, and remnant, and son, and nephew, saith the LORD.
In this passage God, himself is speaking, and I see a whole lot of shaking going on, moving, rising up, and speaking in . These dead people seem to know something, about something. We know that verses 11 through 14 describe actual historical events, the death of Nebuchadnezzar, king of Babylon.
…..Some will argue that this passage is figurative because fir trees don’t literally rejoice, vs. 8. They will argue that the passage must be figurative since God told Israel “take up this proverb against the king of Babylon.” vs. 4. The occurrence of one figurative expression in a passage does not prove that anything else in the passage is figurative.
…..The Hebrew word םשל/mashal translated “proverb” does not necessarily mean something is fictional. For example, Israel did not become fictional when God made them a mashal/proverb in 2 Chronicles 7:20, Psalms 44:14, and Jeremiah 24:9.
…..The jews considered this passage to be factual.

Jewish Encyclopedia-Gehenna
“When Nebuchadnezzar descended into hell, all its inhabitants were afraid that he was coming to rule over them (Shab. 149a; comp. Isa. xiv. 9-10).”
GEHENNA - JewishEncyclopedia.com
Here is another passage where God, Himself, is speaking and people who are dead in sheol, speaking, being ashamed, comforted, etc.

Ezek 32:18-22, 30-31 (KJV)
18) Son of man, [Ezekiel] wail for the multitude of Egypt, and cast them down, even her, and the daughters of the famous nations, unto the nether parts of the earth, with them that go down into the pit.
19) Whom dost thou pass in beauty? go down, and be thou laid with the uncircumcised.
20) They shall fall in the midst of them that are slain by the sword: she is delivered to the sword: draw her and all her multitudes.
21) The strong among the mighty shall speak to him out of the midst of hell [שאול] with them that help him: they are gone down, they lie uncircumcised, slain by the sword.
22) Asshur is there and all her company: his graves are about him: all of them slain, fallen by the sword::[ . . . ]
Eze 32:30-31
(30) There be the princes of the north, all of them, and all the Zidonians, which are gone down with the slain; with their terror they are ashamed of their might; and they lie uncircumcised with them that be slain by the sword, and bear their shame with them that go down to the pit.
(31) Pharaoh shall see them, and shall be comforted over all his multitude, even Pharaoh and all his army slain by the sword, saith the Lord GOD.
Jesus speaking, in the NT a dead man in Hades had eyes, was in torment, saw Abraham, “cried and said,” asked for water, begged Abraham, etc.

Luk 16:22-28
(22) And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;
(23) And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
(24) And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
(25) But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.
(26) And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence.
(27) Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house:
(28) For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment.
All of the ECF who quote or refer to the story of Lazarus and the rich man considered it factual.

• Irenaeus Against Heresies Book II Chapter XXXIV.-Souls Can Be Recognised in the Separate State, and are Immortal Although They Once Had a Beginning.
Ireneaeus, [120-202 AD], was a student of Polycarp, who was a student of John.
1. The Lord has taught with very great fulness, that souls not only continue to exist, not by passing from body to body, but that they preserve the same form [in their separate state] as the body had to which they were adapted, and that they remember the deeds which they did in this state of existence, and from which they have now ceased,-in that narrative which is recorded respecting the rich man and that Lazarus who found repose in the bosom of Abraham. In this account He states that Dives [=Latin for rich] knew Lazarus after death, and Abraham in like manner, and that each one of these persons continued in his own proper position , and that [Dives] requested Lazarus to be sent to relieve him-[Lazarus], on whom he did not [formerly] bestow even the crumbs [which fell] from his table.
ANF01. The Apostolic Fathers with Justin Martyr and Irenaeus | Christian Classics Ethereal Library
• Clement of Alexandria [A.D. 153-193-217] The Instructor [Paedagogus] Book 1
On the Resurrection.
This was the day. “And a certain poor man named Lazarus was laid at the rich man’s gate, full of sores, desiring to be filled with the crumbs which fell from the rich man’s table.” This is the grass. Well, the rich man was punished in Hades, being made partaker of the fire; while the other flourished again in the Father’s bosom.
• Tertullian A Treatise On The Soul [A.D. 145-220.]
In hell the soul of a certain man is in torment, punished in flames, suffering excruciating thirst, and imploring from the finger of a happier soul, for his tongue, the solace of a drop of water. Do you suppose that this end of the blessed poor man and the miserable rich man is only imaginary? Then why the name of Lazarus in this narrative, if the circumstance is not in (the category of) a real occurrence? But even if it is to be regarded as imaginary, it will still be a testimony to truth and reality . For unless the soul possessed corporeality, the image of a soul could not possibly contain a finger of a bodily substance; nor would the Scripture feign a statement about the limbs of a body, if these had no existence.
• Tertullian Part First A Treatise On The Soul Chapter 57
9. Moreover, the fact that Hades is not in any case opened for (the escape of) any soul , has been firmly established by the Lord in the person of Abraham, in His representation of the poor man at rest and the rich man in torment.
• The Epistles Of Cyprian [A.D. 200-258] Epistle 54 To Cornelius, Concerning Fortunatus And Felicissimus, Or Against The Heretics
Whence also that rich sinner who implores help from Lazarus, then laid in Abraham’s bosom, and established in a place of comfort, while he, writhing in torments, is consumed by the heats of burning flame, suffers most punishment of all parts of his body in his mouth and his tongue, because doubtless in his mouth and his tongue he had most sinned.
• Methodius Fragments On The History Of Jonah [A.D. 260-312]
But souls, being rational bodies, are arranged by the Maker and Father of all things into members which are visible to reason, having received this impression. Whence, also, in Hades, as in the case of Lazarus and the rich man, they are spoken of as having a tongue, and a finger, and the other members; not as though they had with them another invisible body, but that the souls themselves, naturally, when entirely stripped of their covering, are such according to their essence.

So why is it that NO ONE takes the parables Yeshua spoke as literal EXCEPT for this one? It is a GROSS error to take a parable that is a teaching tool as a LITERAL rendering. NO one and I mean NO ONE who is taken as a serious scholar or student of the bible takes ANY of the other parables as literal and it is intellectually dishonest to try and purpose this particular parable as a literal event. Sorry, you don't get a pass here.

I don't take ANYTHING a gentile believers from the AD period as authoritative on this subject as much of the pagan believe structure had already been laid into the "church's" doctrinal views.

The view on being gathered with your forefathers awaiting the resurrection was the overwhelming view as bore out by the ACTUAL resurrection of Lazarus when Yeshua explained to Martha in John11: 23 Jesus *said to her, “Your brother will rise again.” 24 Martha *said to Him, “I know that he will rise again in the resurrection on the last day.” 25 Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life; he who believes in Me will live even if he dies, 26 and everyone who lives and believes in me will never die. Do you believe this?” 27 She *said to Him, “Yes, Lord; I have believed that You are [f]the Christ, the Son of God, even [g]He who comes into the world.”

Nowhere is there any indication ANYWHERE that Lazarus is anywhere but the grave.

Sheol is the grave...

Why is it you conveniently ignore passages that tell us things like...."For Sheol cannot thank You, Death cannot praise You; Those who go down to the pit cannot hope for Your faithfulness."

For the living know they will die; but the dead do not know anything, nor have they any longer a reward, for their memory is forgotten.

And of course, if the believer is NOT in the grave awaiting the resurrection, you know like Paul MAKES VERY, VERY CLEAR.... then they can only be in heaven which is a serious problem for you since Messiah openly states NO ONE HAS ASCENDED INTO HEAVEN EXCEPT HE WHO HATH DESCENDED, THE SON OF MAN.

But then, you are not going to be convinced by what is in my opinion scripture makes clear... You also believe in ECT doctrine when G-d makes clear that MAN IS MORTAL.

Der Alte · Aug 13, 2019

BukiRob said:
So why is it that NO ONE takes the parables Yeshua spoke as literal EXCEPT for this one? It is a GROSS error to take a parable that is a teaching tool as a LITERAL rendering. NO one and I mean NO ONE who is taken as a serious scholar or student of the bible takes ANY of the other parables as literal and it is intellectually dishonest to try and purpose this particular parable as a literal event. Sorry, you don't get a pass here.

I like how you totally ignored both of my posts and thank you for your biased opinion which you have not supported with any scripture. You do not know what "most" scholars teach about anything.
Unlike the unquestioned parables the story of Lazarus and the rich man was not introduced as a parable, it was not explained later to Jesus' disciples and it features two people by name, Lazarus and Abraham. Abraham was an actual historical person. If Abraham was not in the place Jesus stated and did not speak the words Jesus quoted then Jesus was lying.

I don't take ANYTHING a gentile believers from the AD period as authoritative on this subject as much of the pagan believe structure had already been laid into the "church's" doctrinal views.

Some of those ECF that you blew off without even reading were Jews, Ignatius and Polycarp were students of John and Irenaeus was a student of Polycarp. Polycarp was martyred for his faith. Most people are not willing to die for a lie.

The view on being gathered with your forefathers awaiting the resurrection was the overwhelming view as bore out by the ACTUAL resurrection of Lazarus when Yeshua explained to Martha in John11: 23 Jesus *said to her, “Your brother will rise again.” 24 Martha *said to Him, “I know that he will rise again in the resurrection on the last day.” 25 Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life; he who believes in Me will live even if he dies, 26 and everyone who lives and believes in me will never die. Do you believe this?” 27 She *said to Him, “Yes, Lord; I have believed that You are [f]the Christ, the Son of God, even [g]He who comes into the world.”

Good you quoted one verse of scripture but you do not explain how this supposedly refutes anything I posted.

Nowhere is there any indication ANYWHERE that Lazarus is anywhere but the grave.

The story of Lazarus and the rich man places Lazarus, not in the grave dead but, somehow alive with Abraham. And OBTW the "bosum of Abraham" is not a place it is a position. The bosum of Abraham is the position of honor to the right of the host actually in front of the host as they reclined on the floor on their left elbows with their feet extended away for the table.

Sheol is the grave...

You believing that, you're not going to like my next post showing from Jewish sources that for Jews sheol was what we call hell.

Why is it you conveniently ignore passages that tell us things like...."For Sheol cannot thank You, Death cannot praise You; Those who go down to the pit cannot hope for Your faithfulness."
For the living know they will die; but the dead do not know anything, nor have they any longer a reward, for their memory is forgotten.
And of course, if the believer is NOT in the grave awaiting the resurrection, you know like Paul MAKES VERY, VERY CLEAR.... then they can only be in heaven which is a serious problem for you since Messiah openly states NO ONE HAS ASCENDED INTO HEAVEN EXCEPT HE WHO HATH DESCENDED, THE SON OF MAN.
But then, you are not going to be convinced by what is in my opinion scripture makes clear... You also believe in ECT doctrine when G-d makes clear that MAN IS MORTAL.

You accuse me of ignoring scripture when you totally ignored two posts of mine where I quoted about 30 verses of scripture.

BukiRob · Aug 13, 2019

Der Alter said:
I like how you totally ignored both of my posts and thank you for your biased opinion which you have not supported with any scripture. You do not know what "most" scholars teach about anything.
Unlike the unquestioned parables the story of Lazarus and the rich man was not introduced as a parable, it was not explained later to Jesus' disciples and it features two people by name, Lazarus and Abraham. Abraham was an actual historical person. If Abraham was not in the place Jesus stated and did not speak the words Jesus quoted then Jesus was lying.

Some of those ECF that you blew off without even reading were Jews, Ignatius and Polycarp were students of John and Irenaeus was a student of Polycarp. Polycarp was martyred for his faith. Most people are not willing to die for a lie.

Good you quoted one verse of scripture but you do not explain how this supposedly refutes anything I posted.

The story of Lazarus and the rich man places Lazarus, not in the grave dead but, somehow alive with Abraham. And OBTW the "bosum of Abraham" is not a place it is a position. The bosum of Abraham is the position of honor to the right of the host actually in front of the host as they reclined on the floor on their left elbows with their feet extended away for the table.

You believing that, you're not going to like my next post showing from Jewish sources that for Jews sheol was what we call hell.

You accuse me of ignoring scripture when you totally ignored two posts of mine where I quoted about 30 verses of scripture.

Go ahead and type in Rich man and Lazarus and what you see is a WIDE range of commentaries ALL calling it a PARABLE. You lose ALL credibility when your view is in the EXTREME minority. It may well be a minority of 1

No the mainstream view of Sheol is NOT hell... The Jewish people believed you gathered to your fathers (GRAVE) where you waited for the resurrection.

---SE---

Der Alte · Aug 13, 2019

BukiRob said:
For the living know they will die; but the dead do not know anything, nor have they any longer a reward, for their memory is forgotten.

This is a favorite proof text for the "hell no" crowd. Always quoted out-of-context.
The phrase "under the sun" occurs 29 times in the OT all in Ecclesiastes and 5 of those in chap. 9 where your proof text comes from.

Ecc 9:3
(3) This is an evil among all things that are done under the sun, that there is one event unto all: yea, also the heart of the sons of men is full of evil, and madness is in their heart while they live, and after that they go to the dead.
Ecc 9:5-6
(5) For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.
(6) Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun.
Ecc 9:9, Ecc 9:11,Ecc 9:13

This says the dead have no more reward. Does that mean even the righteous receive no reward after death? Or when read in-context does your proof text say,

"the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, [under the sun] neither have they any more a reward;[under the sun] for the memory of them is forgotten.[under the sun]?"

In chap. 3 the same author did not know what happens to the spirit after death.

Ecc 3:21 Who knows if the human spirit rises upward and if the spirit of the animal goes down into the earth?"

Der Alte · Aug 13, 2019

The Jews, in Israel before and during the time of Jesus believed in a place of eternal, unending, fiery torment and they called it both Gehinnom/Gehenna and Sheol.
.....When Jesus taught about,

• "Eternal punishment, Mt 25:46"
• "the fire of hell where the fire is not quenched and the worm does not die, Mk 9:43-48" and
• "cast into a fiery furnace where there will be wailing and gnashing of teeth,” Mt 13:42, 50
• “better for him [a person who offends a little one] that a millstone were hanged about his neck, and that he were drowned in the depth of the sea. Mt 18:6
• “it had been good for him [the one who betrays Jesus] if he had not been born.” Mat 26:24

These teachings reaffirmed and sanctioned a then existing significant Jewish view of eternal hell. In Matt. 18:6, 26:24, see above, Jesus teaches that there is a fate worse than death or nonexistence. A fate worse than death is also mentioned in Heb 10:28-31.

Heb 10:28
He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses:
29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
30 For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.
31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

.....If Jesus had wanted to say eternal death in Matt 25:46, He knew the word for death and that is what He would have said but He said “eternal punishment.” The Sadducees did not believe in the resurrection, they knew that everybody died, young, old, good, bad, and knew that it was permanent. When Jesus taught “eternal punishment” they would not have understood it as death, it would have meant something worse to them.
.....Jesus was born, and grew to maturity, in 1st century Israel. He knew what the Jews, believed about hell. If the Jews were wrong when Jesus taught about man’s eternal fate, such as eternal punishment, He would have corrected them. Jesus did not correct them, thus their teaching on hell was correct. Here is historical evidence to support this.

Jewish Encyclopedia, Gehenna
The place where children were sacrificed to the god Moloch was originally in the "valley of the son of Hinnom," to the south of Jerusalem (Josh. xv. 8, passim; II Kings xxiii. 10; Jer. ii. 23; vii. 31-32; xix. 6, 13-14). For this reason the valley was deemed to be accursed, and "Gehenna" therefore soon became a figurative equivalent for "hell." Hell, like paradise, was created by God (Sotah 22a); [Note, this is according to the ancient Jews, long before the Christian era, NOT the bias of Christian translators.]
It is assumed in general that sinners go to hell immediately after their death. The famous teacher Johanan b. Zakkai wept before his death because he did not know whether he would go to paradise or to hell (Ber. 28b). The pious go to paradise, and sinners to hell (B.M. 83b).
But as regards the heretics, etc., and Jeroboam, Nebat's son, hell shall pass away, but they shall not pass away" (R. H. 17a; comp. Shab. 33b). All that descend into Gehenna shall come up again, with the exception of three classes of men: those who have committed adultery, or shamed their neighbors, or vilified them (B. M. 58b).[/i]
As mentioned above, heretics and the Roman oppressors go to Gehenna, and the same fate awaits the Persians, the oppressors of the Babylonian Jews (Ber. 8b). When Nebuchadnezzar descended into hell, [Sheol] all its inhabitants were afraid that he was coming to rule over them (Shab. 149a; comp. Isa. xiv. 9-10). The Book of Enoch also says that it is chiefly the heathen who are to be cast into the fiery pool on the Day of Judgment (x. 6, xci. 9, et al). "The Lord, the Almighty, will punish them on the Day of Judgment by putting fire and worms into their flesh, so that they cry out with pain unto all eternity" (Judith xvi. 17). The sinners in Gehenna will be filled with pain when God puts back the souls into the dead bodies on the Day of Judgment, according to Isa. xxxiii. 11 (Sanh. 108b).
Jewish Encyclopedia Online
=================
Encyclopedia Judaica:
Gehinnom (Heb. גֵּי בֶן־הִנֹּם, גֵּי בְנֵי הִנֹּם, גֵּיא בֶן־הִנֹּם, גֵּיא הִנֹּם; Gr. Γέεννα; "Valley of Ben-Hinnom, Valley of [the Son (s) of] Hinnom," Gehenna), a valley south of Jerusalem on one of the borders between the territories of Judah and Benjamin, between the Valley of *Rephaim and *En-Rogel (Josh. 15:8; 18:16). It is identified with Wadi er-Rababi.
…..During the time of the Monarchy, Gehinnom, at a place called Topheth, was the site of a cult which involved the burning of children (II Kings 23:10; Jer. 7:31; 32:35 et al.

. Jeremiah repeatedly condemned this cult and predicted that on its account Topheth and the Valley of the Son of Hinnom would be called the Valley of the "Slaughter" (Jer. 19:5–6).
In Judaism the name Gehinnom is generally used as an appellation of the place of torment reserved for the wicked after death. The New Testament used the Greek form Gehenna in the same sense.
Gehinnom
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Talmud -Tractate Rosh Hashanah Chapter 1.
The school of Hillel says: . . . but as for Minim, [follower of Jesus] informers and disbelievers, who deny the Torah, or Resurrection, or separate themselves from the congregation, or who inspire their fellowmen with dread of them, or who sin and cause others to sin, as did Jeroboam the son of Nebat and his followers, they all descend to Gehenna, and are judged there from generation to generation, as it is said [Isa. lxvi. 24]: "And they shall go forth and look upon the carcases of the men who have transgressed against Me; for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched." Even when Gehenna will be destroyed, they will not be consumed, as it is written [Psalms, xlix. 15]: "And their forms wasteth away in the nether world," which the sages comment upon to mean that their forms shall endure even when the grave is no more. Concerning them Hannah says [I Sam. ii. 10]: "The adversaries of the Lord shall be broken to pieces."
Tract Rosh Hashana: Chapter I.

the lake of fire, the second death as spiritual death?

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