Women's ultimate responsibility for world's sin

bèlla

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why do you make those kind of remarks? I'm not brandishing anything.
You defended the feminist point of view and I merely noted that.

I didn’t defend it. I articulated it. There’s a difference. Just because you convey a perspective doesn’t mean you agree or are defending it. Anyone with an understanding of feminist arguments could communicate the same.
 
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GenemZ

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Adam was the reason the ground was cursed. Adam himself was not cursed. The toil to make a living was his punishment.


Did the ground stop being cursed after Adam died? If it had? That would be punishment.
 
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joshua 1 9

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I have heard that interpretation. As I just pointed out, it took over a thousand years after Genesis for that to happen.
Some people believe Satan began his dirty deeds back at Pangaea when the dinosaurs began to devour one another.
 
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GenemZ

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Some people believe Satan began his dirty deeds back at Pangaea when the dinosaurs began to devour one another.

Some people see in the Scriptures valid reasons for why that is so.

Satan did begin his dirty deeds long before man was created. And, was (in part) the reason for the creation of man and allowing for his fall. It was to get the angels who were in denial to face up to who and what they are through fallen man's actions illustrating their own.

And, for the faithful angels to see that they were not naive dupes for refusing the recruitment of Lucifer against the Lord. From what life teaches us, it appears that Lucifer and the fallen angels mocked the faithful ones for being fools.

Man and his fall became God's great teaching tool to teach the angels about those angels who were judged, and about those who remained faithful.
 
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2PhiloVoid

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Good question -- I was wondering when someone was going to ask that!
I'm glad I could be of service there. ^_^

The LCMS, to my knowledge, doesn't really broach this. My thinking has been more informed by my readings of the conservative Reformed, who tend to get far more into gender roles and responsibilities types of discussions; the patriarchal branch of them explores challenging angles like this at times, although I'm not sure if any of them have done this one, specifically. 1 Timothy 2 and Titus 2 get thrown around a lot to put women 'in their place,' so to speak, in other contexts, however, so I was attempting to take that kind of reasoning to other Biblical threads, and see if it worked.
I suppose the conservative Lutherans are similar to other conservative groups in this regard. While I won't knock those who feel a 'firmer' role placement between men and women is needed, I would recommend researching the historical context that surround 1 Timothy 2 and Titus 2, especially with the writing of the late Catherine Clark Kroeger). Her book, I Suffer Not a Woman: Rethinking I Timothy 2:11-15 in Light of Ancient Evidence, could be an eye-opener for you.

It might also be helpful if you research the various 'types' of Feminism, because there are several and they're not all the same. In fact, at the least, I'd say that the 1st Wave Feminism from over a hundred years ago is cogent and useful. The 2nd Wave feminism, not so much. ;)

With all of the moderate but still substantive study I've done on this issue, I have to say that women's place in the Church (and marriage) needs to be modified in some ways, especially since the fact that with the Advent of Christ, any overtly strong Patriarchal structures should be reevaluated.
 
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kdm1984

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I'm glad I could be of service there. ^_^

I suppose the conservative Lutherans are similar to other conservative groups in this regard. While I won't knock those who feel a 'firmer' role placement between men and women is needed, I would recommend researching the historical context that surround 1 Timothy 2 and Titus 2, especially with the writing of the late Catherine Clark Kroeger). Her book, I Suffer Not a Woman: Rethinking I Timothy 2:11-15 in Light of Ancient Evidence, could be an eye-opener for you.

It might also be helpful if you research the various 'types' of Feminism, because there are several and they're not all the same. In fact, at the least, I'd say that the 1st Wave Feminism from over a hundred years ago is cogent and useful. The 2nd Wave feminism, not so much. ;)

With all of the moderate but still substantive study I've done on this issue, I have to say that women's place in the Church (and marriage) needs to be modified in some ways, especially since the fact that with the Advent of Christ, any overtly strong Patriarchal structures should be reevaluated.

Thanks. Yes, there are nuances in both Christian conservatism and feminism; they are hardly monolithic groups, and have many sub-groups. It can be difficult for all of us to keep this in perspective sometimes when discussing these ideas.

At any rate, in all my reading, the firmest role placements on women are done by certain circles of the Reformed, the Anabaptist groups (no surprise there as they are the most resistant to change in all spheres of life of any Christians), and the IFB. Some of these groups even overtly define themselves as 'patriarchal' (I was once online friends with one former Vision Forum adherent who, when Doug Phillips came to disgrace, said that patriarchy in and of itself must still nonetheless be defended among the Biblically faithful!).

Confessional Lutherans don't follow that ideology (I believe patriarchy has come up twice in the adult Bible classes I've attended, and both the senior and associate pastors at the LCMS church I attend don't subscribe to it), nor do they endlessly debate and try to categorize spheres of what women should or shouldn't do, as I find in Reformed discussions of "Biblical womanhood" all the time. Confessional Lutherans only believe in role restrictions for the pastoral position (LCMS) and some church office positions (WELS). Anything beyond that would seem magisterial use of reason.

There's also a thing in Lutheranism called the doctrine of vocation where both men and women can live out Christian lives in the day-to-day, whether at job, school, home, etc. This thinking isn't found in the other groups I mentioned, and some of those other groups think women working outside the home at all is a violation of certain Pauline NT passages. Such thinking is foreign to WELS or LCMS Lutherans.

Lastly, regarding feminism, you are correct in there have definitely been different waves. I've read a bit about these. The latest wave is patently absurd with unrealistic expectations of so-called 'equality' that don't take equality of opportunity into context, and which constantly denigrates men. But that's a far cry from earlier waves where women just wanted to vote, have property, and such. There are some who will argue that allowing the earlier waves inevitably led to more demands from later waves, but that's a cavernous discussion beyond what can be exegeted from Scripture, so I'll leave that one alone for now. :)
 
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Maria Billingsley

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EDIT: I have adjusted my thesis on this a bit after further discussion and analysis of Scripture with some here. Woman was deceived, but Scripture says sin came through one man (Adam), so I no longer view sin as fully woman's responsibility. See pages 6, 7, 8 of this thread for further explanation and context.
Nice come back!
 
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2PhiloVoid

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Thanks. Yes, there are nuances in both Christian conservatism and feminism; they are hardly monolithic groups, and have many sub-groups. It can be difficult for all of us to keep this in perspective sometimes when discussing these ideas.

At any rate, in all my reading, the firmest role placements on women are done by certain circles of the Reformed, the Anabaptist groups (no surprise there as they are the most resistant to change in all spheres of life of any Christians), and the IFB. Some of these groups even overtly define themselves as 'patriarchal' (I was once online friends with one former Vision Forum adherent who, when Doug Phillips came to disgrace, said that patriarchy in and of itself must still nonetheless be defended among the Biblically faithful!).

Confessional Lutherans don't follow that ideology (I believe patriarchy has come up twice in the adult Bible classes I've attended, and both the senior and associate pastors at the LCMS church I attend don't subscribe to it), nor do they endlessly debate and try to categorize spheres of what women should or shouldn't do, as I find in Reformed discussions of "Biblical womanhood" all the time. Confessional Lutherans only believe in role restrictions for the pastoral position (LCMS) and some church office positions (WELS). Anything beyond that would seem magisterial use of reason.

There's also a thing in Lutheranism called the doctrine of vocation where both men and women can live out Christian lives in the day-to-day, whether at job, school, home, etc. This thinking isn't found in the other groups I mentioned, and some of those other groups think women working outside the home at all is a violation of certain Pauline NT passages. Such thinking is foreign to WELS or LCMS Lutherans.

Lastly, regarding feminism, you are correct in there have definitely been different waves. I've read a bit about these. The latest wave is patently absurd with unrealistic expectations of so-called 'equality' that don't take equality of opportunity into context, and which constantly denigrates men. But that's a far cry from earlier waves where women just wanted to vote, have property, and such. There are some who will argue that allowing the earlier waves inevitably led to more demands from later waves, but that's a cavernous discussion beyond what can be exegeted from Scripture, so I'll leave that one alone for now. :)

From what you're telling me here, it seems that neither your church nor your own personal knowledge about Feminism is influencing you much toward a more hard-line view as far as women's roles in both family and church go. And if this is the case, what is it in the Bible that's making you feel like women should "stay their place"?
 
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2PhiloVoid

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EDIT: I have adjusted my thesis on this a bit after further discussion and analysis of Scripture with some here. Woman was deceived, but Scripture says sin came through one man (Adam), so I no longer view sin as fully woman's responsibility. See pages 6, 7, 8 of this thread for further explanation and context.

...Ok. I apparently came in late on this development, kdm. That's good. :clap:
 
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kdm1984

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...Ok. I apparently came in late on this development, kdm. That's good. :clap:

No problem. The thread has been mostly good discussion, and I was able to see the viewpoint of some others in light of further Scripture.

I still have questions about how firm the line needs to be drawn on gender in a more macro sense, but that's probably best served in a separate topic. This one may have run its course.
 
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2PhiloVoid

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No problem. The thread has been mostly good discussion, and I was able to see the viewpoint of some others in light of further Scripture.

I still have questions about how firm the line needs to be drawn on gender in a more macro sense, but that's probably best served in a separate topic. This one may have run its course.

No problem. I don't think I was able to help much, but I'm glad to see you've been doing some deep thinking on it. Questions about the role of women in the Church, family and society are always important and we all know they make up a still very timely field to explore. ;)
 
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charsan

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EDIT: I have adjusted my thesis on this a bit after further discussion and analysis of Scripture with some here. Woman was deceived, but Scripture says sin came through one man (Adam), so I no longer view sin as fully woman's responsibility. See pages 6, 7, 8 of this thread for further explanation and context.

Sin entered in through one man, but we are responsible for our own sin.
 
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Charles Kanyuga

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The debate between who is better standing in God between Adam and Eve is misinterpreted in many circles. Adam and Eve are one. And so Paul wrote to our understanding that all have sinned and fallen short the glory of God. From this we know that the responsibility of sin in the world cannot be placed on one gender whether male or female but on both including the serpent.
Though it was Eve who was deceived and ate the fruit, she also gave Adam who was with her. The metaphor here is explained this way, even though it is the world that fell to deception Christ took the responsibility of sin upon himself so that he might save the world from the consequence of sin which is death. Isaiah ably shows us what it meant that Adam ate the fruit from Eve in that "Surely He (Christ) took on our infirmities and carried our sorrows" John illustrate this by saying that the Word became flesh. From the writings of Paul we know that flesh represent living in sin. Isaiah says that He was numbered among sinners.
So the case of Adam and Eve represents Christ and the world in that Jesus Christ (who is referred to as the last Adam by Paul) took upon himself the transgression of the world. So it is neither male or female who is responsible for the sin in the world but all according to Paul. But the penalty was borne by Jesus Christ. (Jesus Christ came and dwelt in the world; that is symbolized by Adam who was with Eve. So Adam who was with she who was deceived took the blame, thus he ate it).
So Paul says it is through one man that death entered the world and it is through one man that life was given (First Adam and last Adam). The First Adam in Christ in the Flesh, Last Adam is Christ who died and rose into eternity with God.
Its a whole doctrine of salvation by Grace in Genesis 3 metaphorically represented by Adam's act of Eating the fruit from Eve.
 
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~Zao~

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Dispensation of innocence resulting in the dispensation of grace has much to say on the subject of the moves thru God’s dealings with His people to come to the final stage of dispensing Himself into His people. Usually what can be seen in the physical has it’s counterpart in the spiritual and vice versa.

But lately I’ve been thinking about a-miileniumsism. Has the serpent, the satan, been removed already from the earth?

It sure doesn’t seem like it from all the evil that’s still prevalent. But is it that evil is just prevalent because of flesh still having it’s way in people that have been equipped to not act in evil any longer but still do anyway, despite God’s provision for them. No, satan didn’t make them do it. They did it by an act of their own will.

hmm, food for thought.
 
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