God loves everyone?

Hammster said:

You said that a gift needed to be received and opened before it’s possessed.

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Forgive me if I'm dense, but I cannot see how that is not the case.
A person does not know what's in a sealed envelope until they open it - to do that, they have to pick it up. If it's addressed to them, whatever is inside it is meant for them. If that turned out to be money, it would do them no good until, or unless, they took it and put it in their wallet/the bank.
The best wrapped, and most expensive, Christmas present in the world is no good to you if you don't look at what's inside.

Hammster said:

So if God gives a new heart, it happens,

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God doesn't force anything on anyone.
If he had wanted to do that, he would have made it so that Adam and Eve had no choice but to obey him. And he would not have then given Adam a command not to touch certain fruit if he knew full well that Adam HAD to obey him. That would be like God saying to me "I command you not drive your car next week." I don't have a car and cannot drive, so it is pointless commanding me not to.

Hammster said:

and it does not need to be received and opened first.

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So are you saying that a non Christian could be going happily along, and they suddenly find they have a new heart - that they didn't ask for - inside them?
Or even that a Christian can happily carry on with their bad habits and God will suddenly force change upon them?

sdowney717 said:

You can't lose what you never had.
In a church are all sorts of people, there are going to be sheep, and also goats. Goats do look sort of sheep like, but they aren't sheep. An apostle or anyone in a church will call them all brothers, but some are false brethren. Jude makes this clear.
If your saying a person loses salvation, then they turn from being sheep into goats and naturally it just does not happen so neither then supernaturally. There are reasons why scripture talks like this, it explains things that are supposed to be simpler to understand, like a sheep and a goat are different creatures.

But even so some people do not understand.

John 10 New King James Version (NKJV)
Jesus the True Shepherd

1 “Most assuredly, I say to you, he who does not enter the sheepfold by the door, but climbs up some other way, the same is a thief and a robber. 2 But he who enters by the door is the shepherd of the sheep.

3 To him the doorkeeper opens, and the sheep hear his voice; and he calls his own sheep by name and leads them out.

4 And when he brings out his own sheep, he goes before them; and the sheep follow him, for they know his voice.

5 Yet they will by no means follow a stranger, but will flee from him, for they do not know the voice of strangers.”

6 Jesus used this illustration, but they did not understand the things which He spoke to them.

If you dont understand earthly things, then how can you understand heavenly things? Well, you CAN'T.

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I'm not sure what church has to do with it?
Hebrews 3:4-6
"For every house is built by someone, but the builder of all things is God. Now Moses was faithful in all His house as a servant, for a testimony of those things which were to be spoken later; but Christ was faithful as a Son over His house — whose house we are, if we hold fast our confidence and the boast of our hope firm until the end."
Clearly he is talking about believers. This makes zero sense in a Calvinist world, where you are either predestined to Glory or not.

Strong in Him said:

No, I think it's the other way around.
Jesus said, "whoever believes in me .... whoever comes to me". All a person has to do when presented with the Gospel of mercy, love and forgiveness is say that they believe it - or maybe that they want to believe it but it may take a bit of time. When they say "yes", confess and pray to accept Jesus, THEN they are born again.



He certainly wants to - that's why he told the disciples to go to the ends of the earth to witness to him. But he doesn't force anyone to accept him - if people want to do their own thing and insist they can get to heaven on their own, or if they're simply not bothered about heaven; that's what they'll do.



Yes, that is true.
But he didn't say "and this is only available to a select few, and God will choose the lucky people."



Your interpretation is certainly against everything I was taught.
I don't believe God sits in heaven saying "I will choose this one to be saved, but not that one; I created both of them, but I made this one only to destroy him."



I've no intention of breaking the Scriptures. I just don't read them in the same way that you do.

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Jesus talks about this very thing in John 6, read this, Jesus tells us why people do not believe and why they do believe, it begins and ends with God. He is the beginning and the ending you know of your faith.
God first gives you to Christ, then you come to Him, its not the other way round.
I know this goes against everything you believe about grace and salvation, but you must order your thoughts according to what Jesus teaches, otherwise your believin in a lie. Those who look to Christ to save them, only do so because God gave them to the Son to be His.

35 And Jesus said to them, “I am the bread of life. He who comes to Me shall never hunger, and he who believes in Me shall never thirst. 36 But I said to you that you have seen Me and yet do not believe.

37 All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out.

38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me.

39 This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day.

40 And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day.”

renniks said:

Do you think the ones God "hates" are beyond his love and therefore nonredeemable?
Romans 5:8
But God shows his love for us in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us.

God loves us even while we are still rejecting him, but he hates our sin.

Matthew 5:43-48
“You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ But I say to you, Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, so that you may be sons of your Father who is in heaven. For he makes his sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust. For if you love those who love you, what reward do you have? Do not even the tax collectors do the same? And if you greet only your brothers, what more are you doing than others? Do not even the Gentiles do the same? ..
Do you believe God expects us to be more loving than he is?

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Roman's 5:8 is only speaking of the elect sheep.

Jonaitis said:

The term "love" in Scripture isn't a warm, fuzzy, emotional feeling God has for people. It is an action. If God loves all people the same, then all people would enjoy the same acts of his benevolence - including salvation. God's love for Israel were all the peculiar blessings and promises he made only to them that no other nation could have enjoyed.

The problem with Christ dying for every person is that you still have people going to hell. That's double jeopardy. When Scripture says "all" it means it in a general way.

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John 15:17 says

“For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him.”
‭‭John‬ ‭3:17‬ ‭NASB‬‬

Some translations use the word may be saved indicating He gave the world the possibility or way of being saved.

Strong in Him said:

In the OT, yes - but Jesus died for sinners.

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This did not change who Jesus hates throughout Scripture or history.

yeshuaslavejeff said:

This did not change who Jesus hates throughout Scripture or history.

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Who did Jesus 'hate'

sdowney717 said:

Not everyone is God's child. Everyone of God's children get saved. they can rightly call God their Father. Fathers create offspring, the offspring of God are those who are born again in Christ. If your not born again, then your not belonging to Him as His child, you are none of His.

Romans 8:15 For you did not receive the spirit of bondage again to fear, but you received the Spirit of adoption by whom we cry out, “Abba, Father.”

9 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His.

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You say: “we are not all God’s children”, so who created those who are not God created by God? Does God make bad people from birth? God can hate people the same as we are to hate our own families, but that does not mean He does not also Love them like we are to Love our families. Are there people not made in God’s image?

renniks said:

I'm not sure what church has to do with it?
Hebrews 3:4-6
"For every house is built by someone, but the builder of all things is God. Now Moses was faithful in all His house as a servant, for a testimony of those things which were to be spoken later; but Christ was faithful as a Son over His house — whose house we are, if we hold fast our confidence and the boast of our hope firm until the end."
Clearly he is talking about believers. This makes zero sense in a Calvinist world, where you are either predestined to Glory or not.

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Except I am not God and neither is the man who wrote these words to know if your going to be faithful at the end of your life on earth. If your in a church fellowship, I am going to assume you are going to remain faithful , but I can also assume maybe your not, hence the warning to all. God knows those who are His. The ones who are not His, I john 2 says they depart from the faith, they were in the church fellowship for a period of time but they left because they were not 'ONE OF US', that is the ones chosen to know God and be saved are the ones who have an anointing from Him to know the truth and be saved. John at the end assures them they will be saved because He is teaching them all things and that He causes them to abide in Him till the end.
1 John 2
18 Little children, it is the last hour; and as you have heard that the Antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come, by which we know that it is the last hour.
19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out that they might be made manifest, that none of them were of us.

20 But you have an anointing from the Holy One, and you know all things.
21 I have not written to you because you do not know the truth, but because you know it, and that no lie is of the truth.

22 Who is a liar but he who denies that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist who denies the Father and the Son. 23 Whoever denies the Son does not have the Father either; he who acknowledges the Son has the Father also.

Let Truth Abide in You
24 Therefore let that abide in you which you heard from the beginning. If what you heard from the beginning abides in you, you also will abide in the Son and in the Father. 25 And this is the promise that He has promised us—eternal life.

26 These things I have written to you concerning those who try to deceive you.
27 But the anointing which you have received from Him abides in you, and you do not need that anyone teach you; but as the same anointing teaches you concerning all things, and is true, and is not a lie, and just as it has taught you, you will abide in Him.

Hammster said:

But it’s your contention that OT people were saved in a different manner that we are today, correct?

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All people are saved by God's forgiveness, but not all are disciplined for their rebellious disobedience.
Paul explains that in Ro. 3:25 since prior to the cross "those forgiven" were not "punished/disciplined".

ICONO'CLAST said:

Roman's 5:8 is only speaking of the elect sheep.

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If God’s election is true then...


1. According to John 3:18 why are we judged according to whether or not we believe if we are incapable of believing unless God has chosen us?


2. Wouldn’t that ultimately make God responsible for someone’s unbelief if He has not enabled them to believe?


3. Wouldn’t it be unjust for God to judge someone according to whether or not they believe if He has created them as being incapable of believing and has not enabled them to do so?


4. Why did Jesus and the apostles tell people to believe if they are incapable of believing if they are not chosen by God and are incapable of failing to believe if they are chosen by God?


5. According to 1 Timothy 2:3-4 and 2 Peter 3:9 God wants everyone to repent and be saved and none to perish. So why would He only elect certain people to be saved and condemn all others giving them no chance for salvation?


6. According to John 3:16-17 God loved the world so much that He sent His Son so the world might be saved through Him, so why would Our loving God only elect certain people for salvation condemning all others?


7. If God’s election is true then eternal security must also be true because according to the doctrine of God’s elect they cannot be chosen and lose their salvation. So according to John 15:2 how can branches who are in Christ be cut off from the vine which is Christ?


8. Why did Jesus say to His 11 faithful apostles “abide in Me” even explaining to them the consequences of failing to abide which results in the loss of salvation if they are incapable of failing to abide?


9. In Ephesians 2 Paul is addressing children of God as so stated throughout the chapter, so why does he warn these same children of God in Ephesians 5:1-5 of living a sinful way of life that will result in them receiving the wrath of God on the sons of disobedience which results in them having no inheritance in the kingdom of God?


10. Romans 11 Paul warns the Gentiles who have been grafted in of being cut off for unbelief even saying they can be grafted back in if they repent. Why would anyone be grafted in if they are not chosen by God and will fall from grace?


11. Romans 6:15-16 How can those who are under grace (God’s elect) sin to the point of becoming slaves to satan resulting in death?


12. If they are incapable of sinning to the point of becoming slaves to satan resulting in death what is the purpose of Paul’s statement? Why would he say this if those who are under grace are incapable of becoming slaves to satan and why would he say this to anyone who is not elected by God if they are condemned because they are incapable of being slaves to God?


13. Why did Jesus say “when the Son of Man is lifted up He will draw all men to Himself”?


14. Why does Paul say in Colossians 1:23 that they must “continue in the faith firmly established and steadfast, and not moved away from the hope of the gospel” in order to be presented Holy and blameless without reproach if they are already reconciled to God and are incapable of failing to continue in the faith?


“And although you were formerly alienated and hostile in mind, engaged in evil deeds, yet He has now reconciled you in His fleshly body through death, in order to present you before Him holy and blameless and beyond reproach- if indeed you continue in the faith firmly established and steadfast, and not moved away from the hope of the gospel that you have heard, which was proclaimed in all creation under heaven, and of which I, Paul, was made a minister.”

Colossians 1:21-23 NASB

sdowney717 said:

Except I am not God and neither is the man who wrote these words to know if your going to be faithful at the end of your life on earth. If your in a church fellowship, I am going to assume you are going to remain faithful , but I can also assume maybe your not, hence the warning to all. God knows those who are His. The ones who are not His, I john 2 says they depart from the faith, they were in the church fellowship for a period of time but they left because they were not 'ONE OF US', that is the ones chosen to know God and be saved are the ones who have an anointing from Him to know the truth and be saved. John at the end assures them they will be saved because He is teaching them all things and that He causes them to abide in Him till the end.
1 John 2
18 Little children, it is the last hour; and as you have heard that the Antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come, by which we know that it is the last hour.
19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out that they might be made manifest, that none of them were of us.

20 But you have an anointing from the Holy One, and you know all things.
21 I have not written to you because you do not know the truth, but because you know it, and that no lie is of the truth.

22 Who is a liar but he who denies that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist who denies the Father and the Son. 23 Whoever denies the Son does not have the Father either; he who acknowledges the Son has the Father also.

Let Truth Abide in You
24 Therefore let that abide in you which you heard from the beginning. If what you heard from the beginning abides in you, you also will abide in the Son and in the Father. 25 And this is the promise that He has promised us—eternal life.

26 These things I have written to you concerning those who try to deceive you.
27 But the anointing which you have received from Him abides in you, and you do not need that anyone teach you; but as the same anointing teaches you concerning all things, and is true, and is not a lie, and just as it has taught you, you will abide in Him.

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That was in reference to antichrists and a particular group of people. It was not said in reference to everyone who falls away.

bling said:

You say: “we are not all God’s children”, so who created those who are not God created by God? Does God make bad people from birth? God can hate people the same as we are to hate our own families, but that does not mean He does not also Love them like we are to Love our families. Are there people not made in God’s image?

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God created rocks and fallen angels, demons, and evil people too.
They are part of this current evil age, but in the age to come, they will not be living or around us anymore, they will be gone. God will create and make all things new.
God through Christ made all things that were made, including all mankind, but God is the vinedresser and chooses whether they remain in the vine (abide in Christ) or not.
Its honestly up to God.
John 15 New King James Version (NKJV)
The True Vine
15 “I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser.

John 1 New King James Version (NKJV)
The Eternal Word
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 He was in the beginning with God.
3 All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made.

sdowney717 said:

Jesus talks about this very thing in John 6, read this, Jesus tells us why people do not believe and why they do believe, it begins and ends with God. He is the beginning and the ending you know of your faith.
God first gives you to Christ, then you come to Him, its not the other way round.
I know this goes against everything you believe about grace and salvation, but you must order your thoughts according to what Jesus teaches, otherwise your believin in a lie. Those who look to Christ to save them, only do so because God gave them to the Son to be His.

35 And Jesus said to them, “I am the bread of life. He who comes to Me shall never hunger, and he who believes in Me shall never thirst. 36 But I said to you that you have seen Me and yet do not believe.

37 All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out.

38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me.

39 This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day.

40 And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day.”

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The Greek word translated to “comes or cometh” is only used in the present and imperfect tense meaning those who presently and continuously come to Him He will certainly not cast out. The Greek word translated to “will” also means to desire. The same word is used in both 1 Timothy 2:4 and 2 Peter 3:9 which both say that God desires all men to repent and be saved and that none should perish. John 15:1-10 Jesus warns His 11 faithful apostles of the consequences of failing to abide in Him. Surely we can all agree that these men did believe and were chosen by God and yet Jesus still felt it was necessary to warn them of the consequences of failing to abide. Was He warning them of doing something they were incapable of doing?

sdowney717 said:

24 Therefore let that abide in you which you heard from the beginning. If what you heard from the beginning abides in you, you also will abide in the Son and in the Father. 25 And this is the promise that He has promised us—eternal life.

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You just overemphasize some verses and under emphasize others. "If" means what it says. You have to endure. It's not a deterministic formula, where some are irresistibly drug along and some left behind.

sdowney717 said:

God created rocks and fallen angels, demons, and evil people too.
They are part of this current evil age, but in the age to come, they will not be living or around us anymore, they will be gone. God will create and make all things new.
God through Christ made all things that were made, including all mankind, but God is the vinedresser and chooses whether they remain in the vine (abide in Christ) or not.
Its honestly up to God.
John 15 New King James Version (NKJV)
The True Vine
15 “I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser.

John 1 New King James Version (NKJV)
The Eternal Word
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2 He was in the beginning with God.
3 All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made.

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John 15:2 He (The Father) cuts off every branch in Me that does not bear fruit. Were these branches chosen by God? If not how can they have been in Christ if the doctrine of total depravity it true?

BNR32FAN said:

John 15:2 He (The Father) cuts off every branch in Me that does not bear fruit. We’re these branches chosen by God? If not how can they have been in Christ if the doctrine of total depravity it true?

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Who claims such a error-full doctrine, with all the various doctrines or practices or ways of thinking that are associated with it also, is true ?

ICONO'CLAST said:

Roman's 5:8 is only speaking of the elect sheep.

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Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:

The Israelites were God's chosen too, yet most of them fell away. It's not a formula. It's a love story.

BNR32FAN said:

The Greek word translated to “comes or cometh” is only used in the present and imperfect tense meaning those who presently and continuously come to Him He will certainly not cast out. The Greek word translated to “will” also means to desire. The same word is used in both 1 Timothy 2:4 and 2 Peter 3:9 which both say that God desires all men to repent and be saved and that none should perish. John 15:1-10 Jesus warns His 11 faithful apostles of the consequences of failing to abide in Him. Surely we can all agree that these men did believe and were chosen by God and yet Jesus still felt it was necessary to warn them of the consequences of failing to abide. Was He warning them of doing something they were incapable of doing?

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Scripture explains why things are as they are, so we have no surprises, we are supposed to be knowing the truth, that is what the Holy Spirit teaches. We have perfect explanations in scripture for why some people are saved and why some fall away and why some never believe at all.

Hammster said:

I’m asking you. Why was Christ tortured so that I could experience torture?

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Come now Hammster, do you not know all the benefits of fair/just/Loving discipline, are you a parent and/or did you have good parents? Sorry for asking, just have a hard time believing you do not know.

Loving Discipline correctly accepted :

Is a deterrent for the child and other children of the same parent.

Is a way to measure the severity of the offence (the greater the severity of the discipline the greater the offence).

Lets the child know the parent unquestionably cares about them.

Allows those going through the discipline with the child to form a stronger bond (Christ is going through it with us).

helps the child put the offence against the Parent behind him/her to know it is over.

Allows the child to now feel comfortable in the Parent’s presence.

There could be more, just off the top of my head.