Carl Emerson

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Hi there,

If a guy and a girl rock up to church that have been living together unmarried, but both have just found salvation in Jesus, should they split as a couple until they can get married?

What if they claim they are now married before God having repented of their previous state, committed themselves to each other before Him immediately after finding salvation and are therefore married spiritually?

This begs the question - what constitutes a marriage biblically?

Some site Adam and Eve were married before God only.
 

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It is the vow before God that constitutes a marriage. Cohabitation does not equal the same in my opinion. If they desired to confirm their commitment the justice of peace would suffice.

The statement is meant to deflect attention from their living status and its sin.
 
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Paidiske

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If their situation now bothered them, I'd offer to sit down and fill out marriage paperwork.

If their situation didn't bother them, I'd figure the Holy Spirit probably had other priorities in their lives. If they've only just found Jesus, baptism preparation might be more important than marriage preparation...
 
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ValleyGal

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Imo, it is not enough to commit to each other before God. That can be done by anyone who decides on an exclusive dating relationship, because God is everywhere. Everywhere is "before God".

I believe God is all about covenant. The covenant is multifaceted with verbal declaration to the community (witnesses to the vow), the legal contract (submitting to governmental regulations), and the "seal" (marital relations). Imo, this is what makes a couple married. And divorced couples are no longer married so are free to marry again (but that's another thread).

If a couple has been living together as a married couple but not married, they should consider getting married soon after realizing they have been living in sin. I don't believe one needs to move out in order to do this. Jesus didn't tell the woman at the well to move out of her common-law's home; he told her who he was, and then left it up to her. But just as he told another woman in adultery "go and sin no more" I think the principle stands... once sin is evident to the one doing it, they need to take action to remedy, to align with God's will. Sometimes this takes a little time, like planning for a wedding or trip to the courthouse for a JP.

For those who cite Adam and Eve, well, it's kinda hard to find witnesses and legal authorities when there are only two people in the world. There were good reasons for marriage being different back then - as well, there was no "law" yet, even though there was morality.
 
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eleos1954

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Hi there,

If a guy and a girl rock up to church that have been living together unmarried, but both have just found salvation in Jesus, should they split as a couple until they can get married?

What if they claim they are now married before God having repented of their previous state, committed themselves to each other before Him immediately after finding salvation and are therefore married spiritually?

This begs the question - what constitutes a marriage biblically?

Some site Adam and Eve were married before God only.

It would seem that the following principles should be followed: 1) As long as the requirements are reasonable and not against the Bible, a man and a woman should seek whatever formal governmental recognition is available. 2) A man and a woman should follow whatever cultural, familial, and covenantal practices are typically employed to recognize a couple as “officially married.” 3) If possible, a man and a woman should consummate the marriage sexually, fulfilling the physical aspect of the “one flesh” principle.

Some site Adam and Eve were married before God only

They were. There was not any earthly government (mans government) in place at the time. I think the first main principle of marriage was put in place by God with Adam and Eve. One man, one woman joined together in the presence of God by vow ... and this principle is continuous.

God then further builds on that main principle as time goes on and legal authorities and cultures are formed, but the original principle I believe remains unchanged.

As far as I know, secular marriages always include vows of some sort and I think God expects them to honor them and so will he ... as long as the one man, one woman principle is followed.

To my knowledge at the very minimum the following is always included do you take this man .... do you take this woman ... fulfilling the Lords one man one woman principle.

So, could a couple vow to one another and not obtain mans' legal requirement and that still be ok with God? Yes I believe so, but then also all the marriage requirements as set forth in His word stay in tact as well.

If the couple does not have knowledge of the Lord and then later come to the Lord, the Holy Spirit will lead them to what the resolve is and that's between them and the Lord.

Regardless ... the Lord has a way to repair everything one has done when they accept Him and ask Him to come into their lives. Thank God!

God Bless.
 
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Kris Jordan

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Hi there,

If a guy and a girl rock up to church that have been living together unmarried, but both have just found salvation in Jesus, should they split as a couple until they can get married?

What if they claim they are now married before God having repented of their previous state, committed themselves to each other before Him immediately after finding salvation and are therefore married spiritually?

This begs the question - what constitutes a marriage biblically?

Some site Adam and Eve were married before God only.

Hi Carl,

This couple needs to immediately stop living (and sleeping) together until they are legally married.

What constitutes a legal marriage is first directed by what Scripture says (= one man and one woman for life) and then by what their particular state requires (= marriage license, official marriage ceremony, etc.).

As believers, they are to submit themselves to the governing authorities over them in becoming "legally married," since there is nothing about those requirements that violate any biblical command (Reference: Romans 13:1-2). Without meeting these requirements, they are not married before God or anyone else but simply living in sin instead (if they continue living and sleeping together).

Hope that helps!
 
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Carl Emerson

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OK thanks for the responses...

So some think if these folk, after conversion and repentance, prayerfully commit themselves to each other, on their own before God, make vows, this does not constitute a marriage?

What biblical support is there for this position?

By the way this is not a 'test' :) - but I will raise a few more issues then give my position.
 
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Kris Jordan

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OK thanks for the responses...

So some think if these folk, after conversion and repentance, prayerfully commit themselves to each other, on their own before God, make vows, this does not constitute a marriage?

What biblical support is there for this position?

By the way this is not a 'test' :) - but I will raise a few more issues then give my position.

Hi Carl,

No, committing themselves to each other prayerfully does not constitute a marriage. There are laws in our states as to what constitutes a legal marriage between one man and one woman and we are commanded by God to submit ourselves to those governing authorities in that regard. (The biblical principles for obeying the laws of the land - which would cover topics like marriage, paying taxes to the government, etc. - are found in Matthew 22:15-21 and Romans 13:1-2.)

In addition, we read in the gospels about wedding celebrations taking place so it was never a "let's pray and commit this relationship to the Lord and call it a marriage" situation. But even if that was what was done back then (which it wasn't), we live in a day where the laws of the land regarding marriage are to be upheld and followed by those seeking to get legally married, unless of course, we are speaking about homosexual marriage which falls into a completely different category with a completely different answer from me. :)
 
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Carl Emerson

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Hi Kris,

So this applies in developed cultures with an established legal system. Romans 13 covers this - no issue.

What about cultures that are more primitive - like in early biblical times when patriarchs were nomadic and we read 'so and so' took for himself a wife...

The reads as if it was quite un-ceremonial reading about Abraham and Isaac for example.

I do note however Genesis 26:

4 “I will multiply your descendants as the stars of heaven, and will give your descendants all these lands; and by your descendants all the nations of the earth shall be blessed; 5 because Abraham obeyed Me and kept My charge, My commandments, My statutes and My laws.”

This is pre-Moses yet reference is made to Gods 'statutes and laws.'

We have little detail of these times.

So to summarise - authority in any culture is to be respected and the cultural norms define what constitutes marriage.

I raise this because in this age folks slip into and out of 'partnerships' in great abandon. Also if marriage is not clearly defined there would be no definition of adultery either.

Our cultural values are crumbling and this seems to be simply linked with diminishing respect for authority.
 
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Carl Emerson

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If their situation didn't bother them, I'd figure the Holy Spirit probably had other priorities in their lives. If they've only just found Jesus, baptism preparation might be more important than marriage preparation...

This is a somewhat controversial position and seems to allow for folks to continue 'living in sin'...
 
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Carl Emerson

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It is the vow before God that constitutes a marriage. Cohabitation does not equal the same in my opinion. If they desired to confirm their commitment the justice of peace would suffice.

The statement is meant to deflect attention from their living status and its sin.

Yes... back in the day, we would take a couple who were fresh in the Lord, but living together, immediately to the Registry Office and have them sign papers.
 
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Carl Emerson

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If a couple has been living together as a married couple but not married, they should consider getting married soon after realizing they have been living in sin. I don't believe one needs to move out in order to do this.

I beg to differ - if they have been living in sin and truely repent, they will not want to stay together until matters are resolved.
 
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Kris Jordan

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Hi Kris,

So this applies in developed cultures with an established legal system. Romans 13 covers this - no issue.

What about cultures that are more primitive - like in early biblical times when patriarchs were nomadic and we read 'so and so' took for himself a wife...

The reads as if it was quite un-ceremonial reading about Abraham and Isaac for example.

I do note however Genesis 26:

4 “I will multiply your descendants as the stars of heaven, and will give your descendants all these lands; and by your descendants all the nations of the earth shall be blessed; 5 because Abraham obeyed Me and kept My charge, My commandments, My statutes and My laws.”

This is pre-Moses yet reference is made to Gods 'statutes and laws.'

We have little detail of these times.

So to summarise - authority in any culture is to be respected and the cultural norms define what constitutes marriage.

I raise this because in this age folks slip into and out of 'partnerships' in great abandon. Also if marriage is not clearly defined there would be no definition of adultery either.

Our cultural values are crumbling and this seems to be simply linked with diminishing respect for authority.

Hi Carl,

I would assert that your statement, "authority in any culture is to be respected and the cultural norms define what constitutes marriage" would apply only in cases where those cultures and cultural norms do not violate God's Word or principles (or our own consciences, for that matter).

For example, if a culture (and their government) legalized polygamy, homosexual marriage or human-animal marriage, then your statement would not apply since it goes against the clear teaching of Scripture. But in cases where no violation of God's Word (or our own conscience) is present, then yes, I would agree with that statement.
 
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Of course but the topic is specifically about Heterosexual marriage...

Can you suggest a current culture in which this does not apply because the cultural norms around Heterosexual marriage violate Biblical principle?

Yes, I'm just trying to cover all the bases for those who are following this thread because there are those who are quick to misquote, misinterpret or misunderstand (or not keep things in their intended context).

I can't think of any legal requirements for heterosexual marriage within the US that violate any biblical principles. Can you?
 
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Carl Emerson

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No but possibly in other third world countries - maybe.

You may know that at one stage the LDS movement condoned polygamy and there was a big split as a result - the proponents went to Mexico to be able to continue with several wives.

Thanks Chris for your participation.
 
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Paidiske

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This is a somewhat controversial position and seems to allow for folks to continue 'living in sin'...

Every single person who comes to church Sunday by Sunday has problems with sin in their lives.

What I am suggesting is that it's not necessarily a good idea for me, or the church as a whole, to decide that this sin is completely intolerable and must be remedied immediately, while a) turning a blind eye to all the other sins which are live in the community, and b) not trusting that God is at work in the life of the couple, and will convict them about marriage if/when God sees fit.

They're new converts! They've got plenty to work through and deal with. (Which is why I pointed out that baptism might be the first thing to raise with them). It's not necessarily helpful for me to try to dictate the order in which they tackle the various changes which will be consequent on their conversion.
 
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Hi there,

If a guy and a girl rock up to church that have been living together unmarried, but both have just found salvation in Jesus, should they split as a couple until they can get married?

What if they claim they are now married before God having repented of their previous state, committed themselves to each other before Him immediately after finding salvation and are therefore married spiritually?

This begs the question - what constitutes a marriage biblically?

Some site Adam and Eve were married before God only.

Best to stop the hanky panky and living apart would make that easier.

Get into some pre marital Christian counseling as soon as possible.

Join a good solid church together and have a blessed marriage.

M-Bob
 
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Carl Emerson

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Every single person who comes to church Sunday by Sunday has problems with sin in their lives.

What I am suggesting is that it's not necessarily a good idea for me, or the church as a whole, to decide that this sin is completely intolerable and must be remedied immediately, while a) turning a blind eye to all the other sins which are live in the community, and b) not trusting that God is at work in the life of the couple, and will convict them about marriage if/when God sees fit.

They're new converts! They've got plenty to work through and deal with. (Which is why I pointed out that baptism might be the first thing to raise with them). It's not necessarily helpful for me to try to dictate the order in which they tackle the various changes which will be consequent on their conversion.

Well in scripture we read "Repent and be baptised" - not be Baptised and then Repent... !!!

Mind you, in these days, 1 Cor 5 is no longer taken seriously it seems. We seem to parade a faith that once was, rather than see any judgement within the church even although God through Paul demanded it.

I quote...

Immorality Rebuked

1It is actually reported that there is immorality among you, and immorality of such a kind as does not exist even among the Gentiles, that someone has his father’s wife. 2You have become arrogant and have not mourned instead, so that the one who had done this deed would be removed from your midst.

3For I, on my part, though absent in body but present in spirit, have already judged him who has so committed this, as though I were present. 4In the name of our Lord Jesus, when you are assembled, and I with you in spirit, with the power of our Lord Jesus, 5I have decided to deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of his flesh, so that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

6Your boasting is not good. Do you not know that a little leaven leavens the whole lump of dough?7Clean out the old leaven so that you may be a new lump, just as you are in fact unleavened. For Christ our Passover also has been sacrificed. 8Therefore let us celebrate the feast, not with old leaven, nor with the leaven of malice and wickedness, but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth.

9I wrote you in my letter not to associate with immoral people; 10I did not at all mean with the immoral people of this world, or with the covetous and swindlers, or with idolaters, for then you would have to go out of the world. 11But actually, I wrote to you not to associate with any so-called brother if he is an immoral person, or covetous, or an idolater, or a reviler, or a drunkard, or a swindler—not even to eat with such a one. 12For what have I to do with judging outsiders? Do you not judge those who are within the church? 13But those who are outside, God judges. REMOVE THE WICKED MAN FROM AMONG YOURSELVES.
 
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