If the agreement between the the father and child remained the same (if child cleans room, father gives a cookie), then I would agree with you.
But as we see with Israel, God found fault with them as they could not keep their end of the agreement and so through Jeremiah, He prophesied of a new covenant (hebrews 8:7-8).
And so if the child does not clean his room, the father does not need to give the child a cookie. The child then continues in disobedience and will not clean the room, so the father ends this agreement and promises a new agreement. IF the child cleans the room, the father will give his child a new video game system.
Now when the child listens and cleans the room under the new promise, does the child receive a video game system or a cookie?
the materialistic blessings of the old covenant are bestowed upon the Jews who come to Christ? That doesn't make sense if the old covenant was made obsolete and taken away (Hebrews 8:13, Hebrews 10:9).
Scripture is very clear the new covenant is NOT LIKE the old covenant (hebrews 8:9). Scripture is very clear the new covenant has better promises (hebrews 8:6). Scripture is very clear the old covenant was made obsolete (Hebrews 8:13).
However, your argument that the old covenant promises are still in effect means the new covenant is like the old covenant. Your argument that the old covenant promises are still in effect means they co exist with better promises and are thus worse promises. Your argument that the old covenant promises are still in effect means the old covenant is till in effect, which goes against scripture.
The body of Christ is Israel. It consists of Jews and grafted in gentiles who were made one under Christ. Anyone who is in Christ is Abraham's offspring.
I disgaree. Both Hosea and Ezekiel mention the house of Israel and Judah coming together under one leader.
Greece.
It was prophesied that Ephraim (another name for the house of Israel) would become a multitude of gentiles
We can see it was God who sent the northern kingdom away with a decree of divorce.
It was the northern kingdom that would no longer be God's people and God no longer their God
It is the northern kingdom that mixes with the nations.
Thus by God divorcing the northern kingdom, he scattered them and mixed them with nations. and therefore descendants of the northern kingdom became a multitude of gentiles by the time of the 1st advent of Christ (700 years post Assyrian exile).
THis is substantiated by Paul quoting hosea 1:10 and 2:23 as being fulfilled with the inclusion of the GENTILES with the jews in the vessels of mercy (romans 9:24-26).
So you believe true Israel are those who reject Christ?
Again, shadow. Christ became sin, who knew no sin, for us. He became a curse for us.
Christ redeemed Israel from the curses of the law by becoming a curse (Galatians 3:13). As dueteronomy states, it is after the curses were poured out that Israel would repent and return to the Lord and thus God would restore them from captivity (deuteronomy 30:1-5). That is the shadow.
After Christ became the curse and thus redeemed Israel from the curses of the law (Galatians 3:13), Israel began to repent (acts 2:41), and were set free (Galatians 5:1).
All scripture points to Christ and all promises of God find their yes in Christ. Ezekiel 37 prophesies that the house of Israel and the house of Judah would be gathered together in their land and would become one nation under one king.
This literally is fulfilled. Israel (descendants of both houses) did return to the land following the Babylonian exile (1 chronicles 9:1-3). God was manifested in the flesh through Christ following the return from exile. Through the ministry, death, resurrection and ascension of Christ to the Father, Israel and the gentiles began to be gathered as one people under one head/shepherd who is Christ (John 11:52, ephesians 2:15).
The old covenant was a conditional agreement. If Israel obeyed, God would bless. We cannot separate the promises from the covenant. If the covenant is obsolete so are the conditional promises.
Who are God's people? Those obedient to the son or those that reject the son?
I did not misquote. Paul literally states a man IS NOT A JEW BECAUSE HE IS ONE OUTWARDLY. Paul clearly states a man is a jew because HE IS ONE INWARDLY.
1.) Both the New Jerusalem and the Body of Christ are the Bride of the lamb
2.)Both the New Jerusalem and the Body of Christ are built on the foundations of the prophets
3.) Both the New Jerusalem and the Body of Christ are where God dwells with his people.
4.) Both the New Jerusalem and the Ezekiel temple having water flowing from them
5.) Both the New Jerusalem and the Ezekiel temple have trees growing on either side of the river producing fruit every month and have leaves for healing
6.) Both the New Jerusalem and the Ezekiel temple are where God's throne is
7.) Both the New Jerusalem and the Jerusalem of the Ezekiel temple have 12 gates (3 on each side) with the names of the 12 tribes of Israel.
I believe the Body of Christ = New Jerusalem = Ezekiel temple.
“If the agreement between the the father and child remained the same (if child cleans room, father gives a cookie), then I would agree with you…And so if the child does not clean his room, the father does not need to give the child a cookie. The child then continues in disobedience and will not clean the room, so the father ends this agreement and promises a new agreement. IF the child cleans the room, the father will give his child a new video game system.
Now when the child listens and cleans the room under the new promise, does the child receive a video game system or a cookie?”
Is there any reason why the child cannot be given both? Neither one cancels out the other. So it is with all of the promises of God.
“…the materialistic blessings of the old covenant are bestowed upon the Jews who come to Christ?
That doesn't make sense if the old covenant was made obsolete and taken away.”
It makes sense if you believe in a God who is faithful in keeping all promises and who brings to fulfillment in the New Covenant those things that were foretold but did not come to pass under the Old Covenant.
“Scripture is very clear the new covenant is NOT LIKE the old covenant (hebrews 8:9). Scripture is very clear the new covenant has better promises (hebrews 8:6). Scripture is very clear the old covenant was made obsolete (Hebrews 8:13).
However, your argument that the old covenant promises are still in effect means the new covenant is like the old covenant. Your argument that the old covenant promises are still in effect means they co exist with better promises and are thus worse promises. Your argument that the old covenant promises are still in effect means the old covenant is till in effect, which goes against scripture.”
Does the faithful keeping of promises make the New Covenant like the Old Covenant? Does that keep the Old Covenant in effect? Is a promise of God made inferior just because it may not be the same as other promises that He has made?
“The body of Christ is Israel. It consists of Jews and grafted in gentiles who were made one under Christ. Anyone who is in Christ is Abraham's offspring.”
The Church is never called Israel in the literal sense, nor is it written that they replace the literal nation of Israel, but the nation of Israel will become a part of the Church. (Rom. 9:27, 11:26)
“I disgaree. Both Hosea and Ezekiel mention the house of Israel and Judah coming together under one leader.”
I did not deny that Israel is the central focus of the messages of both, but the difference between them is that the message of Hosea is extended to the Gentiles. Ezekiel does not mention them except in the sense of drawing the Jewish people out from among them and back into their homeland.
“
But what other nation, other than Israel, has been displaced, scattered, and then again restored?
Greece.”
When were the Greeks ever invaded by foreign armies, taken captive, exiled from their homeland and scattered throughout the nations of the world like the Jews had been?
When were they regathered from the four corners of the earth and brought back to their land?
“Let's try not to forget that not all Israel is Israel, thus the remnant of Israel is all of Jacob.”
No such distinction was made at the time that these things were written.
“It was prophesied that Ephraim (another name for the house of Israel) would become a multitude of gentiles.”
Some translations such as the Geneva and King James Bible say that a multitude of “nations” not “gentiles” would descend from Ephraim. But what nations would those presently be?
“We can see it was God who sent the northern kingdom away with a decree of divorce.
It was the northern kingdom that would no longer be God's people and God no longer their God.”
But that is not the end of the story. Hosea also foretold that they would be reconciled with God.
“It is the northern kingdom that mixes with the nations.”
Which they were already doing before their punishment.
“Thus by God divorcing the northern kingdom, he scattered them and mixed them with nations. and therefore descendants of the northern kingdom became a multitude of gentiles by the time of the 1st advent of Christ (700 years post Assyrian exile).”
They did not all become scattered or mixed (2 Chr. 10:17, 11:13-14, 15:8-9, 30:5-6, 10-11, 18)
and as for those who were scattered throughout the nations, He promised, even in the midst of judgment, to keep them preserved. (Lev. 26-44-45, Deut. 4:31, 37)
“So you believe true Israel are those who reject Christ?”
Does a man’s bloodline change upon his receiving or rejecting of Christ? Or is it the inward nature of the man that changes?
“Again, shadow. Christ became sin, who knew no sin, for us. He became a curse for us.”
In order for it to be a shadow, Israel would have had to submit themselves to punishment for the sins of others and not their own. What scripture does call as having served as a shadow of the redemption to come was the priestly and animal sacrificial system.
“Christ redeemed Israel from the curses of the law by becoming a curse (Galatians 3:13). As dueteronomy states, it is after the curses were poured out that Israel would repent and return to the Lord and thus God would restore them from captivity (deuteronomy 30:1-5). That is the shadow.”
While the cited Deuteronomical passages and all that applied to them could be used as an illustration of our relationship to God (being under the curse of sin and then redeemed through Christ when we call upon Him for salvation), the New Testament writers never called those events a shadow of things to come. Again, it was the priestly and animal sacrificial system that was the shadow of things to come.
“After Christ became the curse and thus redeemed Israel from the curses of the law (Galatians 3:13), Israel began to repent (acts 2:41), and were set free (Galatians 5:1).”
But they were not the nation of Israel as a whole. The vast majority of Israel continued to persist in their rejection of Christ which led to their punishment at the hands of the Roman empire. Had that not been the case, the outcome might have been very different.
“All scripture points to Christ and all promises of God find their yes in Christ. Ezekiel 37 prophesies that the house of Israel and the house of Judah would be gathered together in their land and would become one nation under one king.
This literally is fulfilled. Israel (descendants of both houses) did return to the land following the Babylonian exile (1 chronicles 9:1-3). God was manifested in the flesh through Christ following the return from exile. Through the ministry, death, resurrection and ascension of Christ to the Father, Israel and the gentiles began to be gathered as one people under one head/shepherd who is Christ (John 11:52, ephesians 2:15).”
The literal fulfillment requires not only the Return of the King but a people ready to receive Him.
But it has not yet taken place because of Israel’s rejection of the King when He first came.
“If Israel obeyed, God would bless. We cannot separate the promises from the covenant.”
But who is to say that God cannot transfer promises from one Covenant to another if that is what it takes to faithfully fulfill them?
“W
ho are God's people? Those obedient to the son or those that reject the son?”
Again, why do you think that God has retained a Jewish presence in the land of Israel even before their re-establishment as a nation in 1948?
“I did not misquote. Paul literally states a man IS NOT A JEW BECAUSE HE IS ONE OUTWARDLY. Paul clearly states a man is a jew because HE IS ONE INWARDLY.”
This is how you misquoted the passage in post 591: “
As paul states, a jew is not one outwardly but only if they are circumcised in the heart.”
You made it sound as though there is no such thing as a Jew by blood; Paul never went so far as to say that. He was explaining what defines a Jew in the spiritual sense.
“1.) Both the New Jerusalem and the Body of Christ are the Bride of the lamb…
Ephesians 5:31-32 Therefore a man shall leave his father and mother and hold fast to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh.” This mystery is profound, and I am saying that it refers to Christ and the church.”
It is interesting that the scripture does not explicitly call the Church the Bride of Christ, but the title is adopted due to the illustration of marriage often being used to describe the relationship that Jesus and the Church have with one another. But we will be dwelling with Christ in the New Jerusalem which is the Bride, thus making us a part of the Bride, thus going to show that the structure, topography, and ecosystem of the New Jerusalem are not all that defines the Bride but what defines the Bride are also who will be dwelling in her and those who go in and out of her.
Ephesians 5:31-32, according to the Geneva and King James versions of the Bible do not render the two becoming one flesh as referring to Christ and the Church but rather in those two versions it reads, “but I speak concerning Christ and the Church” thus retaining the distinction between marriage between a man and woman and the relationship between Christ and the Church, yet this is best discussed on another thread.
“2.)Both the New Jerusalem and the Body of Christ are built on the foundations of the prophets
Revelation 21:14 And the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and on them were the twelve names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb.
Ephesians 2:20 built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus himself being the cornerstone.”
The doctrine of the Gospel has its foundations in the Old Testament scriptures with the Apostles establishing its doctrine and the institution of the Church being built upon Christ, but the twelve foundations of the New Jerusalem have only the names of the Apostles written on them. Whereabouts in the city the names of the prophets are written, the scriptures do not tell us.
“3.) Both the New Jerusalem and the Body of Christ are where God dwells with his people.”
The Body of Christ is where God dwells through His Holy Spirit. He will dwell physically in the New Jerusalem upon the new earth among all men.
“4.) Both the New Jerusalem and the Ezekiel temple having water flowing from them.”
Ezekiel’s temple is a building from which Christ will be dwelling and ruling the world during the millennial reign and it is from this building the water flows. In the New Jerusalem, it is the throne of God out of which the water dwells.
“5.) Both the New Jerusalem and the Ezekiel temple have trees growing on either side of the river producing fruit every month and have leaves for healing.”
In the Jerusalem of Ezekiel, there are many trees. In the New Jerusalem, there is only one.
“I believe the Body of Christ = New Jerusalem = Ezekiel temple.”
We will dwell and move in and out of a city, but we are not a city nor are we a building. Christ dwells in us through the Holy Spirit, but His physical dwelling on the earth will be in the temple described by Ezekiel.