Loving Jesus enough to obey Him ensures salvation

BCsenior said:

Thomass, you have been correctly enlightened ...
initially forgiven for your sin does NOT mean forever forgiven for sin!

What sense does this make? ...

(1) Repent of past sins, but NOT repent of future sins?

(2) Be forgiven of all past sins, and then ...
after becoming a new creation in Christ,
after receiving the Holy Spirit inside,
after receiving all of God's Scriptures ...
... also automatically be forgiven of future sins?

(3) IGNORE/REJECT all of God's many dire warnings in the NT
about habitual sinning?

No way, Jose!

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Yes it does mean forever forgiven!
1. repentance is a one time action. After that it is acknowledging as 1 JOhn 1:9 commands.

2. when Jesus died all our sins were future. You have Jesus as a conjditional loving god when the Bible says that now that we have once for all time been redeemed we have much more.

Romans 5 and romans 8 give the believer confidence.

3. Now you are getting close! If a person is struggling in sin, but acknowledges it every time- he is forgiven 70 X 7 a day! God declared us perfect , now He is in the process of sanctifying us! It is HIs plan and He will accomplish it as Scripture says in phillipians!

Now habitual unacknowledged sin is a totally different matter!
This the bible says several things about these people. In 1 JOhn God says they leave us because they were never of us! Jesus said that He never knew them!

You and others here declare that staying saved is based on maintaining a level of performance! That is not Scripture. Salvation was started, maintained and accomplished by Jesus HImself. Yes we should strive for perfection, but if we sin we have an advocate.

1 John 1:8-10 King James Version (KJV)
8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.

9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

this is not written to unbelievers but to the followers of Jesus!

Phil W said:

I'ld put a "puzzled face" emoji here if I could.


It isn't a lie, as 1 John 3:9-10 says the same.
You make it easy for yourself to take the mark of the beast and not offend your conscience.
(I blanked out what I feel was a miswording above,
If you edit it later, so will I.)


He mentions in Phil 3:21 what he had yet to experience for his ultimate perfection...a glorified vessel.
BTW, who is he addressing in verse 15?


It is insanity to strive for the impossible.
Thank God it IS possible.


Matt 5:48..."Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect."

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All that I have left to say is that I will let God judge between you and me!
Go past the English and maybe you will learn!

BCsenior said:

Thomass, you have been correctly enlightened ...
initially forgiven for your sin does NOT mean forever forgiven for sin!

What sense does this make? ...

(1) Repent of past sins, but NOT repent of future sins?

(2) Be forgiven of all past sins, and then ...
after becoming a new creation in Christ,
after receiving the Holy Spirit inside,
after receiving all of God's Scriptures ...
... also automatically be forgiven of future sins?

(3) IGNORE/REJECT all of God's many dire warnings in the NT
about habitual sinning?

No way, Jose!

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My heart breaks for this lie you and Phil believe!

You no longer need Jesus as Savior- He got you in and now you shove HIm aside and rely on your perfect life (which you don't have) and expect a reward for it! This is Phariseism

BCsenior said:

1 John 3:7-10 (NKJV)
“Little children, let no one deceive you.
He who practices righteousness is righteous,
just as He is righteous … In this the children of God
and the children of the devil are manifest:
Whoever does NOT practice righteousness is NOT of God,
NOR is he who does NOT love his brothers/sisters.”

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If you notice in 1 John, He had been refuting Gnostic teachings.

He is showing a marked difference between ideologies in John 3 - not claiming sinless perfection for God's people.

1 John 2:26

"I am writing these things to you about those who are trying to lead you astray."

He's trying to show the error of the gnostics, not claiming Christians are something they aren't.

Of course we obey God and teach others to do so while attempting to live as Christ would have us live, however as it is written in 1 John 2:1

"My dear children, I write this to you so that you will not sin. But if anybody does sin, we have an advocate with the Father--Jesus Christ, the Righteous One."

If we sin, we have an advocate in Christ.

John is spending his time here refuting the beliefs of Gnostics on both sides, those who claim sinless perfection, and those who claim sin doesn't matter...

Christians have a centered belief, we know and recognize the weakness of our flesh, and know and recognize the forgiveness found in Christ, and daily strive to become more Christ like.

Hazelelponi said:

• Pulpit commentary 1 John 1:8
• Verse 8. - After the great message," God is Light" (verse 5) and its application to ourselves (verses 6, 7), we are now told what walking in the light involves:
• (1) consciousness of sin and confession of sin (verses 8-10);
• (2) accepting the propitiation of Jesus Christ the Righteous (1 John 2:1-2);
• (3) obedience (1 John 2:3-6). If we say that we have not sin. The present ἔχομεν again shows that the daily falls of those who are walking in the light are meant, not the sins committed in the days of darkness before conversion. The Lord's Prayer implies that we must daily ask forgiveness. We lead ourselves astray from the truth, and have no right estimate of the gulf between our impurity and God's holiness, if we deny this habitual frailty. In the sunlight even flame throws a shadow; and that man is in darkness who denies his sin. The truth may be near him; but it has not found a home with him - it is not in him. Πλανᾷν is specially frequent in the Revelation, and always of arch-deceivers - Satan, the beast, antichrist, false teachers; it seems to imply fundamental error (comp. 1 John 2:26)

As it is written: "There is no one righteous, not even one; Romans 3:10

There is a difference even saved between us and God, and it is in perfect Holy light we show our God, and our Lord - show Him in the truth of perfection such as He is..

We need to be able to recognise ourselves, in the fullness of our sin and our frailty and our weakness and our need, before we can show the light of Christ to the world.

Yes I have sinned, and fallen short of the Glory of God, and I do this daily..I am not saying look at me and see God, I am saying see God - for He is Holy Holy Holy something I can never be, but if God be willing, I can come close to sharing this truth with just one lost soul.

This is meat. If you say you have no sin the truth is not in you.

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You cannot commit sin and be reborn of God at the same time. (1 John 3:9)
His seed remains in His children, precluding sin.
Oak trees cannot bear onions.

I walk in the light...which is God...and there is no sin in God...Right?

Hazelelponi said:

Christians have a centered belief, we know and recognize the weakness of our flesh, and know and recognize the forgiveness found in Christ, and daily strive to become more Christ like.

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Thanks be to God for providing the way to kill that weak flesh and to be reborn to walk in the Spirit instead of in the flesh.
Who is running the show?
Your flesh or your mind?

BCsenior said:

1 John 3:7-10 (NKJV)
“Little children, let no one deceive you.
He who practices righteousness is righteous,
just as He is righteous … In this the children of God
and the children of the devil are manifest:
Whoever does NOT practice righteousness is NOT of God,
NOR is he who does NOT love his brothers/sisters.”

Click to expand...

Now learn the difference between one who practices unrighteousness a s away of life, and a child of God who is being sanctified by God and still fall short at times.

Learn what the Mercy of God is.

Learn what the forgiveness of God is.

Learn what Jesus accomplished on the Cross.

26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.

27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.

29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.

30 I and my Father are one

Why do you think Jesus has the shepherds staff? It is because when one of HIs sheep strays from the path and falls into briars- He can rescue them!

Romans 8:

29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

31 What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us?

32 He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?

33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.

34 Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who also maketh intercession for us.

35 Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword?

36 As it is written, For thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter.

37 Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us.

38 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,

39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

NOTHING (NOT EVEN SIN) CAN SEPARATE US FROM THE LOVE OF GOD IN CHRIST ! AND NO, THAT IS NOT A LICENSE TO SIN.

nolidad said:

NOTHING (NOT EVEN SIN) CAN SEPARATE US FROM THE LOVE OF GOD IN CHRIST ! AND NO, THAT IS NOT A LICENSE TO SIN.

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So, there IS sin in Christ?
I can't buy that for a second.

Jesus said the truth would free us from service to sin, (John 8:32-34), so I gotta ask...Don't you know the truth?

nolidad said:

That would be incorrect! Jesus shows the two (flesh and water) and Spirit and Spirit. It is also a hebrew idiom that natural birth is born of water. That is where we get the expression "my water broke".

Water Baptism does not save! It is for those who are already saved. It is simply obedience to Jesus and it is a public declaration of what has already taken place inside!

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The water baptism commanded by Jesus in Matthew 28:19-20 does indeed save. The following Scripture verses refer to the baptism commanded by Jesus in Matthew 28:19-20. It is this water baptism which actually makes us His disciples.

This water baptism actually washes away our sins.

Acts 22:16
And now why do you wait? Rise and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on his name.’ rsv

This water baptism actually sanctifies us.

Ephesians 5:26
that he might sanctify her, having cleansed her by the washing of water with the word, rsv

By this water baptism, we receive the Holy Spirit and are thereby spiritually renewed:

Titus 3:5
he saved us, not because of deeds done by us in righteousness, but in virtue of his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal in the Holy Spirit, rsv

1 Corinthians 6:11
And such were some of you. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God. rsv

That would also be incorrect! Jesus is the creator of words and their meaning! Jesus did not say "I do not know you" which would be presently, but He said I never knew you which means at no time did He have a relationship with that person! Please do not blame Jesus for incorrect grammar, and then subtly correct what you deem wrong! Jesus said what He meant and meant what He said!

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If fallen away Christians die unrepentant, Jesus will claim that He does not know them and He will also claim that He never knew them. Jesus only "knows" the people who have His Holy Spirit living/abiding within them in the present moment they are in when they die.

Ezekiel 33:10-20
And you, son of man, say to the house of Israel, Thus have you said: ‘Our transgressions and our sins are upon us, and we waste away because of them; how then can we live?’ 11 Say to them, As I live, says the Lord God, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but that the wicked turn from his way and live; turn back, turn back from your evil ways; for why will you die, O house of Israel? 12 And you, son of man, say to your people, The righteousness of the righteous shall not deliver him when he transgresses; and as for the wickedness of the wicked, he shall not fall by it when he turns from his wickedness; and the righteous shall not be able to live by his righteousness when he sins. 13 Though I say to the righteous that he shall surely live, yet if he trusts in his righteousness and commits iniquity, none of his righteous deeds shall be remembered; but in the iniquity that he has committed he shall die. 14 Again, though I say to the wicked, ‘You shall surely die,’ yet if he turns from his sin and does what is lawful and right, 15 if the wicked restores the pledge, gives back what he has taken by robbery, and walks in the statutes of life, committing no iniquity; he shall surely live, he shall not die. 16 None of the sins that he has committed shall be remembered against him; he has done what is lawful and right, he shall surely live.
17 “Yet your people say, ‘The way of the Lord is not just’; when it is their own way that is not just. 18 When the righteous turns from his righteousness, and commits iniquity, he shall die for it. 19 And when the wicked turns from his wickedness, and does what is lawful and right, he shall live by it. 20 Yet you say, ‘The way of the Lord is not just.’ O house of Israel, I will judge each of you according to his ways.” rsv

All sin is mortal!

Romans 6:23 (KJV)
23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

James 2:
10 For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all. 11 For he that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now if thou commit no adultery, yet if thou kill, thou art become a transgressor of the law. kjv


So tell a little white lie and you have violated the whole!

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Not "all" sins are "mortal" sins.

1 John 5:16-17
If any one sees his brother committing what is not a mortal sin, he will ask, and God will give him life for those whose sin is not mortal. There is sin which is mortal; I do not say that one is to pray for that. All wrongdoing is sin, but there is sin which is not mortal. rsv

Each type of sin has its own degree of punishment.

Hebrews 10:29
How much worse punishment do you think will be deserved by the man who has spurned the Son of God, and profaned the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and outraged the Spirit of grace? rsv

Galatians 6:7
Do not be deceived; God is not mocked, for whatever a man sows, that he will also reap.

There are two different punishments for the two types of unrepented sin ("not mortal" sin and "mortal" sin).

Punishment for unrepented "not mortal" sin is to be purged of these "not mortal" sins by fire:

Matthew 5:25-26
Make friends quickly with your accuser, while you are going with him to court, lest your accuser hand you over to the judge, and the judge to the guard, and you be put in prison; 26 truly, I say to you, you will never get out till you have paid the last penny. rsv

1 Corinthians 3:14-15
If the work which any man has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward. 15 If any man’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire. rsv


Punishment for unrepented "mortal" sin:

John 3:36
He who believes in the Son has eternal life; he who does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God rests upon him. rsv

Matthew 5:22
But I say to you that every one who is angry with his brother shall be liable to judgment; whoever insults his brother shall be liable to the council (imprisonment), and whoever says, ‘You fool!’ shall be liable to the hell of fire. rsv

Romans 2:5
But by your hard and impenitent heart you are storing up wrath for yourself on the day of wrath when God’s righteous judgment will be revealed. rsv

This is also incorrect!

Yes we are to do good works! But they do not save us or keep us saved- the New Testament is absolutely clear that Jesus saved us and keeps us until the day or redemption-Period!

You would make Gods love conditional and that is a lie!

You mentioned Eph. 2:10. Too bad you didn't read the prior verses!

Ephesians 2:8-9 (KJV)
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

saved is in the perfect passive participle which simply means it was done once for all time and needs not to be repeated!

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Jesus first saves us as His gift to us. We keep our salvation (our faith) intact by continuing to obey His commandments until our death.

Jude 1:20-23
But you, beloved, build yourselves up on your most holy faith; pray in the Holy Spirit; 21 keep yourselves in the love of God; wait for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life. 22 And convince some, who doubt; 23 save some, by snatching them out of the fire; on some have mercy with fear, hating even the garment spotted by the flesh. rsv

We are not saved "once" for "all time". Jesus states that some people believe for a while and then they fall away from the faith. When these people are tempted to disobey God's commandments they give in to the temptation and sin against Him.

Luke 8:13
And the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear the word, receive it with joy; but these have no root, they believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away. rsv

Matthew 24:9-13
Then they will deliver you up to tribulation, and put you to death; and you will be hated by all nations for my name’s sake. 10 And then many will fall away, and betray one another, and hate one another. 11 And many false prophets will arise and lead many astray. 12 And because wickedness is multiplied, most men’s love will grow cold. 13 But he who endures to the end will be saved. rsv

So what about our works?

1 Cor. 3:
10 According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon. 11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble; 13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

Learn verse 15! And be free of fearing God will stop loving you if you do really bad! His love will He not take away from His children.

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God only grants eternal life to the people who love Him in return. 1 John 4:8 He will not grant eternal life to the people who disobey His commandments.

John 14:15
If you love me, you will keep my commandments. rsv

John 15:10
If you keep my commandments, you will abide in my love, just as I have kept my Father’s commandments and abide in his love. rsv

1 John 5:3
For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments. And his commandments are not burdensome. rsv

JOhn 3: 18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

36 He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.

And believe means trust or relies upon or has confidence in- not maintaining good works and avoiding "MORTAL" sins (all sins are mortal.)

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"Believe" does not merely mean "trust" or "relies upon" or "has confidence in".

"Belief in" God means "obedience" to His commandments. The demons believed that there is a God but they did not obey God and so they were not saved.

James 2:19
You believe that God is one; you do well. Even the demons believe—and shudder. rsv


Peter asks rhetorically what will happen to the people who do not obey the gospel/commands of Jesus Christ:

1 Peter 4:17
For the time has come for judgment to begin with the household of God; and if it begins with us, what will be the end of those who do not obey the gospel of God? rsv

Paul answers this very question in his letter to the Thessalonians:

2 Thessalonians 1:7-9
.........., when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with his mighty angels in flaming fire, 8 inflicting vengeance upon those who do not know God and upon those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. 9 They shall suffer the punishment of eternal destruction and exclusion from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might, rsv

Whether we do inherit eternal life or do not inherit eternal life will depend only upon our works. God will not ask us if we believe in Him. God will not ask us if we have faith/confidence in Him to save us. Our own fruits/works/deeds will either commend/approve us for eternal life or condemn us to hellfire.

Matthew 7:15-20
Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing but inwardly are ravenous wolves. 16 You will know them by their fruits. Are grapes gathered from thorns, or figs from thistles? 17 So, every sound tree bears good fruit, but the bad tree bears evil fruit. 18 A sound tree cannot bear evil fruit, nor can a bad tree bear good fruit. 19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 Thus you will know them by their fruits. rsv

See also Matthew 28:31-46

Phil W said:

Are the twenty four elders around the throne of God alive or dead?
Isn't Enoch still alive?
And Elijah?

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Enoch and Elijah are still alive, both their physical bodies and immortal spirits. The twenty-four elders' immortal spirits are alive but their physical bodies are dead and are still awaiting the resurrection of all the dead.

Were that true, then Romans 6:7, 1 Peter 4:1, 1 John 3:9, and 1 Cor 15:34. among others, are all lies.
They are not lies.
We CAN be free from sin.
That is the result of "turning from" sin...repentance!
By making a distinction between mortal sins and any other type of sin you do yourself a grave disservice.
All sin carries the same punishment.


Any sin makes a man UNrighteous.


Isn't this verse proof of my words?

We know that a man who truly loves his wife does not sin the sin of adultery. He chooses for himself to not commit adultery.

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"Any" sin does not necessarily make a person unrighteous. It depends on the sin. Only "mortal" sins make a person unrighteous. "Not mortal" sins do not make a person unrighteous.

1 John 5:16-17
If any one sees his brother committing what is not a mortal sin, he will ask, and God will give him life for those whose sin is not mortal. There is sin which is mortal; I do not say that one is to pray for that. 17 All wrongdoing is sin, but there is sin which is not mortal. rsv

The scripture declares that sinners do not have the gift of the Holy Ghost.

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People who commit only "not mortal" sins do continue to have the Holy Spirit abiding in them. People who commit "mortal" sins do not continue to have the Holy Spirit abiding in them.

Scripture shows that there are two degrees of sin (mortal and not mortal) and also that there are two corresponding punishments for these:

Matthew 5:22
But I say to you that every one who is angry with his brother shall be liable to judgment; whoever insults his brother shall be liable to the council (prison), and whoever says, ‘You fool!’ shall be liable to the hell of fire. rsv

There are two different types of fire. One type of fire purges the "not mortal" sinners of their "not mortal" sins, the other type of fire punishes the unrepentant "mortal" sinners for eternity.

There is a purging of "not mortal" sins by a fire in a temporary prison which is reserved for all "not mortal" sinners:

1 Corinthians 3:15
If any man’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire. rsv See also Matthew 5:25-26.

There is a "second death" punishment by everlasting fire which is reserved for unrepentant "mortal" sinners:

Romans 2:5
But by your hard and impenitent heart you are storing up wrath for yourself on the day of wrath when God’s righteous judgment will be revealed. rsv

Ephesians 5:5-7
Be sure of this, that no fornicator or impure man, or one who is covetous (that is, an idolater), has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God. 6 Let no one deceive you with empty words, for it is because of these things that the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience. 7 Therefore do not associate with them, rsv

1 Corinthians 6:9-10
Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither the immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor sexual perverts, 10 nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor robbers will inherit the kingdom of God. rsv

Colossians 3:5-6
Put to death therefore what is earthly in you: fornication, impurity, passion, evil desire, and covetousness, which is idolatry. 6 On account of these the wrath of God is coming. rsv

Galatians 5:19-21
Now the works of the flesh are plain: fornication, impurity, licentiousness, 20 idolatry, sorcery, enmity, strife, jealousy, anger, selfishness, dissension, party spirit, 21 envy, drunkenness, carousing, and the like. I warn you, as I warned you before, that those who do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God. rsv

Jan001 said:

The water baptism commanded by Jesus in Matthew 28:19-20 does indeed save. The following Scripture verses refer to the baptism commanded by Jesus in Matthew 28:19-20. It is this water baptism which actually makes us His disciples.

This water baptism actually washes away our sins.

Acts 22:16
And now why do you wait? Rise and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on his name.’ rsv

This water baptism actually sanctifies us.

Ephesians 5:26
that he might sanctify her, having cleansed her by the washing of water with the word, rsv

By this water baptism, we receive the Holy Spirit and are thereby spiritually renewed:

Titus 3:5
he saved us, not because of deeds done by us in righteousness, but in virtue of his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal in the Holy Spirit, rsv

1 Corinthians 6:11
And such were some of you. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God. rsv



If fallen away Christians die unrepentant, Jesus will claim that He does not know them and He will also claim that He never knew them. Jesus only "knows" the people who have His Holy Spirit living/abiding within them in the present moment they are in when they die.

Ezekiel 33:10-20
And you, son of man, say to the house of Israel, Thus have you said: ‘Our transgressions and our sins are upon us, and we waste away because of them; how then can we live?’ 11 Say to them, As I live, says the Lord God, I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but that the wicked turn from his way and live; turn back, turn back from your evil ways; for why will you die, O house of Israel? 12 And you, son of man, say to your people, The righteousness of the righteous shall not deliver him when he transgresses; and as for the wickedness of the wicked, he shall not fall by it when he turns from his wickedness; and the righteous shall not be able to live by his righteousness when he sins. 13 Though I say to the righteous that he shall surely live, yet if he trusts in his righteousness and commits iniquity, none of his righteous deeds shall be remembered; but in the iniquity that he has committed he shall die. 14 Again, though I say to the wicked, ‘You shall surely die,’ yet if he turns from his sin and does what is lawful and right, 15 if the wicked restores the pledge, gives back what he has taken by robbery, and walks in the statutes of life, committing no iniquity; he shall surely live, he shall not die. 16 None of the sins that he has committed shall be remembered against him; he has done what is lawful and right, he shall surely live.
17 “Yet your people say, ‘The way of the Lord is not just’; when it is their own way that is not just. 18 When the righteous turns from his righteousness, and commits iniquity, he shall die for it. 19 And when the wicked turns from his wickedness, and does what is lawful and right, he shall live by it. 20 Yet you say, ‘The way of the Lord is not just.’ O house of Israel, I will judge each of you according to his ways.” rsv



Not "all" sins are "mortal" sins.

1 John 5:16-17
If any one sees his brother committing what is not a mortal sin, he will ask, and God will give him life for those whose sin is not mortal. There is sin which is mortal; I do not say that one is to pray for that. All wrongdoing is sin, but there is sin which is not mortal. rsv

Each type of sin has its own degree of punishment.

Hebrews 10:29
How much worse punishment do you think will be deserved by the man who has spurned the Son of God, and profaned the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and outraged the Spirit of grace? rsv

Galatians 6:7
Do not be deceived; God is not mocked, for whatever a man sows, that he will also reap.

There are two different punishments for the two types of unrepented sin ("not mortal" sin and "mortal" sin).

Punishment for unrepented "not mortal" sin is to be purged of these "not mortal" sins by fire:

Matthew 5:25-26
Make friends quickly with your accuser, while you are going with him to court, lest your accuser hand you over to the judge, and the judge to the guard, and you be put in prison; 26 truly, I say to you, you will never get out till you have paid the last penny. rsv

1 Corinthians 3:14-15
If the work which any man has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward. 15 If any man’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire. rsv


Punishment for unrepented "mortal" sin:

John 3:36
He who believes in the Son has eternal life; he who does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God rests upon him. rsv

Matthew 5:22
But I say to you that every one who is angry with his brother shall be liable to judgment; whoever insults his brother shall be liable to the council (imprisonment), and whoever says, ‘You fool!’ shall be liable to the hell of fire. rsv

Romans 2:5
But by your hard and impenitent heart you are storing up wrath for yourself on the day of wrath when God’s righteous judgment will be revealed. rsv



Jesus first saves us as His gift to us. We keep our salvation (our faith) intact by continuing to obey His commandments until our death.

Jude 1:20-23
But you, beloved, build yourselves up on your most holy faith; pray in the Holy Spirit; 21 keep yourselves in the love of God; wait for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life. 22 And convince some, who doubt; 23 save some, by snatching them out of the fire; on some have mercy with fear, hating even the garment spotted by the flesh. rsv

We are not saved "once" for "all time". Jesus states that some people believe for a while and then they fall away from the faith. When these people are tempted to disobey God's commandments they give in to the temptation and sin against Him.

Luke 8:13
And the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear the word, receive it with joy; but these have no root, they believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away. rsv

Matthew 24:9-13
Then they will deliver you up to tribulation, and put you to death; and you will be hated by all nations for my name’s sake. 10 And then many will fall away, and betray one another, and hate one another. 11 And many false prophets will arise and lead many astray. 12 And because wickedness is multiplied, most men’s love will grow cold. 13 But he who endures to the end will be saved. rsv



God only grants eternal life to the people who love Him in return. 1 John 4:8 He will not grant eternal life to the people who disobey His commandments.

John 14:15
If you love me, you will keep my commandments. rsv

John 15:10
If you keep my commandments, you will abide in my love, just as I have kept my Father’s commandments and abide in his love. rsv

1 John 5:3
For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments. And his commandments are not burdensome. rsv




"Believe" does not merely mean "trust" or "relies upon" or "has confidence in".

"Belief in" God means "obedience" to His commandments. The demons believed that there is a God but they did not obey God and so they were not saved.

James 2:19
You believe that God is one; you do well. Even the demons believe—and shudder. rsv


Peter asks rhetorically what will happen to the people who do not obey the gospel/commands of Jesus Christ:

1 Peter 4:17
For the time has come for judgment to begin with the household of God; and if it begins with us, what will be the end of those who do not obey the gospel of God? rsv

Paul answers this very question in his letter to the Thessalonians:

2 Thessalonians 1:7-9
.........., when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with his mighty angels in flaming fire, 8 inflicting vengeance upon those who do not know God and upon those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus. 9 They shall suffer the punishment of eternal destruction and exclusion from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might, rsv

Whether we do inherit eternal life or do not inherit eternal life will depend only upon our works. God will not ask us if we believe in Him. God will not ask us if we have faith/confidence in Him to save us. Our own fruits/works/deeds will either commend/approve us for eternal life or condemn us to hellfire.

Matthew 7:15-20
Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing but inwardly are ravenous wolves. 16 You will know them by their fruits. Are grapes gathered from thorns, or figs from thistles? 17 So, every sound tree bears good fruit, but the bad tree bears evil fruit. 18 A sound tree cannot bear evil fruit, nor can a bad tree bear good fruit. 19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 Thus you will know them by their fruits. rsv

See also Matthew 28:31-46

Click to expand...

You are so wrong on so many levels it is hard where to begin!

Ephesians 2:8-9 King James Version (KJV)
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Faith and grace PERIOD save an individual!


πίστις
Transliteration
pistis
Pronunciation
pē'-stēs πείθω (G3982)

Πίστει — 18x
πίστει — 40x
πίστεώς — 1x
πίστεως — 94x
πίστιν — 55x
πίστις — 36x
Dictionary Aids
Vine's Expository Dictionary: cvii. Additional Synonyms

KJV Translation Count — Total: 244x
The KJV translates Strong's G4102 in the following manner: faith (239x), assurance (1x), believe (with G1537) (1x), belief (1x), them that believe (1x), fidelity (1x).
Outline of Biblical Usage [?]

1. conviction of the truth of anything, belief; in the NT of a conviction or belief respecting man's relationship to God and divine things, generally with the included idea of trust and holy fervour born of faith and joined with it
   
   
   1. relating to God
      
      1. the conviction that God exists and is the creator and ruler of all things, the provider and bestower of eternal salvation through Christ
         
   2. relating to Christ
      
      1. a strong and welcome conviction or belief that Jesus is the Messiah, through whom we obtain eternal salvation in the kingdom of God
         
   3. the religious beliefs of Christians
      
   1. belief with the predominate idea of trust (or confidence) whether in God or in Christ, springing from faith in the sam
   2. Galatians 2:16 King James Version (KJV)

16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified


Sorry but you are wrong.

We are saved the moment we place our trust in the death , burial and physical resurrection of Jesus as the full payment of our sin debt.

Water Baptism comes after a person is saved!

nolidad said:

You are so wrong on so many levels it is hard where to begin!

Ephesians 2:8-9 King James Version (KJV)
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Faith and grace PERIOD save an individual!


πίστις
Transliteration
pistis
Pronunciation
pē'-stēs πείθω (G3982)

Πίστει — 18x
πίστει — 40x
πίστεώς — 1x
πίστεως — 94x
πίστιν — 55x
πίστις — 36x
Dictionary Aids
Vine's Expository Dictionary: cvii. Additional Synonyms

KJV Translation Count — Total: 244x
The KJV translates Strong's G4102 in the following manner: faith (239x), assurance (1x), believe (with G1537) (1x), belief (1x), them that believe (1x), fidelity (1x).
Outline of Biblical Usage [?]

1. conviction of the truth of anything, belief; in the NT of a conviction or belief respecting man's relationship to God and divine things, generally with the included idea of trust and holy fervour born of faith and joined with it
   
   1. relating to God
      1. the conviction that God exists and is the creator and ruler of all things, the provider and bestower of eternal salvation through Christ
   2. relating to Christ
      1. a strong and welcome conviction or belief that Jesus is the Messiah, through whom we obtain eternal salvation in the kingdom of God
   3. the religious beliefs of Christians
   1. belief with the predominate idea of trust (or confidence) whether in God or in Christ, springing from faith in the sam
   2. Galatians 2:16 King James Version (KJV)

16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified


Sorry but you are wrong.

We are saved the moment we place our trust in the death , burial and physical resurrection of Jesus as the full payment of our sin debt.

Water Baptism comes after a person is saved!

Click to expand...

According to the Scriptures, it is the Baptism as commanded by Jesus in Matthew 28:19-20 which first saves us and makes us His disciples.

Mark 16:16
He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned. rsv

The person who does not believe will not be baptized and so he will not be saved.

1 Peter 3:21
Baptism, which corresponds to this, now saves you, not as a removal of dirt from the body but as an appeal to God for a clear conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ, rsv


Acts 2:38
And Peter said to them, “Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. rsv


It is the baptism commanded by Jesus in Matthew 28:19-20 which forgives our sins (washes them away from our souls) and gives us the Holy Spirit and makes us Jesus' disciples.

Acts 22:16
And now why do you wait? Rise and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on his name.’ rsv

nolidad said:

You are so wrong on so many levels it is hard where to begin! Ephesians 2:8-9
(KJV)

8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Faith and grace PERIOD save an individual!

Click to expand...

God applies the grace of His sacrifice to our souls through the "words spoken and water of baptism" as commanded by Jesus Christ in Matthew 28:19-20. This grace which we receive through this baptism washes away all our sins. This Grace is also the abiding presence of the Holy Spirit who is Sanctifying Grace. It is the Holy Spirit's abiding presence in our souls which keeps us saved.

Please add verse 10 in order to better understand the intended teaching of Ephesians 2:8-9.


We could do nothing by ourselves to repair the estrangement from God that Adam caused for himself and all his descendants. Romans 5

Only Jesus Christ as both God and Man could offer a perfect sacrifice that could mediate and repair the relationship between God and mankind and so He graciously did this for us. 1 Timothy 2:3-6

Jesus came to earth and atoned "once and for all" for the blood guilt price of Adam's sin and also for the blood guilt price of our own sins.

Jesus' perfect sacrifice has made it possible for mankind to have hope to inherit eternal life. After Adam sinned, there was no hope of entering into eternal life with God. That is why Lazarus' spirit along with Abraham's spirit was in the place of the dead called Abraham's bosom. Their spirits could not enter into heaven because Adam's sin had made it impossible for anyone to enter into heaven to be with God.

Jesus paid the blood guilt price for all sins in order to make it possible for all people to be approved to inherit eternal life, however, each person must choose for himself whom he will serve. Will he serve himself and his passions or will he serve/obey God by doing the will of God (the good works) that God prepared beforehand for him to do? Ephesians 2:10 It is a person's own choices which will determine if he will be approved to inherit eternal life or if he will be condemned to the fire of hell.

On judgment day each person will "reap what he sows". If he does good until he dies, he will be approved to inherit eternal life. If he does evil and does not repent before he dies, he will not be approved to inherit eternal life.

Matthew 7:21
“Not everyone that says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord’, shall enter into the Kingdom of Heaven, but he who does My Father’s will, Who is in Heaven. rsv

John 5:28-29
Do not be surprised at this; the time is coming when all the dead will hear his voice 29 and come out of their graves: those who have done good will rise and live, and those who have done evil will rise and be condemned. gnt


Only the person who does the Father's will, the good works that he was created in Christ Jesus to do, will be approved to inherit eternal life.

10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works; which God has ordained, so that we would walk in them. gnt

Matthew 25:31-46

Galatians 2:16 (KJV)
16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified

Sorry but you are wrong.
We are saved the moment we place our trust in the death , burial and physical resurrection of Jesus as the full payment of our sin debt.

Click to expand...

We are not saved forever once we place our trust in the death, burial, and physical resurrection of Jesus as the full payment of our sin debt.


Paul is stating that the works of the Law (of Moses) under the Old Covenant do not save anyone under Jesus Christ's New Covenant. It is Jesus' sacrifice (of His New Covenant) which saves us, not the animal sacrifices of the Old Covenant.

WARNING: A person does not believe in Jesus Christ as his Lord if he does not obey His commandments.

WARNING: A person does not have faith in Jesus Christ as his Lord if he does not obey His commandments.


Luke 6:46
Why do you call me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ and yet don't do what I tell you? gnt

Matthew 7:20-23
So then, you will know the false prophets by what they do. 21 “Not everyone who calls me ‘Lord, Lord’ will enter the Kingdom of heaven, but only those who do what my Father in heaven wants them to do. 22 When the Judgment Day comes, many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord! In your name we spoke God's message, by your name we drove out many demons and performed many miracles!’ 23 Then I will say to them, ‘I never knew you. Get away from me, you wicked people!’ gnt

On Judgment Day, we all will reap what we have sown.

Galatians 6:7-9
Do not be deceived; God is not mocked, for whatever a man sows, that he will also reap. 8 For he who sows to his own flesh will from the flesh reap corruption; but he who sows to the Spirit will from the Spirit reap eternal life. 9 And let us not grow weary in well-doing, for in due season we shall reap, if we do not lose heart. rsv

Jan001 said:

God applies the grace of His sacrifice to our souls through the "words spoken and water of baptism" as commanded by Jesus Christ in Matthew 28:19-20. This grace which we receive through this baptism washes away all our sins. This Grace is also the abiding presence of the Holy Spirit who is Sanctifying Grace. It is the Holy Spirit's abiding presence in our souls which keeps us saved.

Please add verse 10 in order to better understand the intended teaching of Ephesians 2:8-9.

8 For by grace are you saved, through faith, and that not of yourselves. It is the gift from God 9 (not of works, lest anyone should boast). 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works; which God has ordained, so that we would walk in them. rsv​

We could do nothing by ourselves to repair the estrangement from God that Adam caused for himself and all his descendants. Romans 5

Only Jesus Christ as both God and Man could offer a perfect sacrifice that could mediate and repair the relationship between God and mankind and so He graciously did this for us. 1 Timothy 2:3-6

Jesus came to earth and atoned "once and for all" for the blood guilt price of Adam's sin and also for the blood guilt price of our own sins.

Jesus' perfect sacrifice has made it possible for mankind to have hope to inherit eternal life. After Adam sinned, there was no hope of entering into eternal life with God. That is why Lazarus' spirit along with Abraham's spirit was in the place of the dead called Abraham's bosom. Their spirits could not enter into heaven because Adam's sin had made it impossible for anyone to enter into heaven to be with God.

Jesus paid the blood guilt price for all sins in order to make it possible for all people to be approved to inherit eternal life, however, each person must choose for himself whom he will serve. Will he serve himself and his passions or will he serve/obey God by doing the will of God (the good works) that God prepared beforehand for him to do? Ephesians 2:10 It is a person's own choices which will determine if he will be approved to inherit eternal life or if he will be condemned to the fire of hell.

On judgment day each person will "reap what he sows". If he does good until he dies, he will be approved to inherit eternal life. If he does evil and does not repent before he dies, he will not be approved to inherit eternal life.

Matthew 7:21
“Not everyone that says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord’, shall enter into the Kingdom of Heaven, but he who does My Father’s will, Who is in Heaven. rsv

John 5:28-29
Do not be surprised at this; the time is coming when all the dead will hear his voice 29 and come out of their graves: those who have done good will rise and live, and those who have done evil will rise and be condemned. gnt


Only the person who does the Father's will, the good works that he was created in Christ Jesus to do, will be approved to inherit eternal life.

10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works; which God has ordained, so that we would walk in them. gnt

Matthew 25:31-46



We are not saved forever once we place our trust in the death, burial, and physical resurrection of Jesus as the full payment of our sin debt.

16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified kjv​

Paul is stating that the works of the Law (of Moses) under the Old Covenant do not save anyone under Jesus Christ's New Covenant. It is Jesus' sacrifice (of His New Covenant) which saves us, not the animal sacrifices of the Old Covenant.

WARNING: A person does not believe in Jesus Christ as his Lord if he does not obey His commandments.

WARNING: A person does not have faith in Jesus Christ as his Lord if he does not obey His commandments.


Luke 6:46
Why do you call me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ and yet don't do what I tell you? gnt

Matthew 7:20-23
So then, you will know the false prophets by what they do. 21 “Not everyone who calls me ‘Lord, Lord’ will enter the Kingdom of heaven, but only those who do what my Father in heaven wants them to do. 22 When the Judgment Day comes, many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord! In your name we spoke God's message, by your name we drove out many demons and performed many miracles!’ 23 Then I will say to them, ‘I never knew you. Get away from me, you wicked people!’ gnt

On Judgment Day, we all will reap what we have sown.

Galatians 6:7-9
Do not be deceived; God is not mocked, for whatever a man sows, that he will also reap. 8 For he who sows to his own flesh will from the flesh reap corruption; but he who sows to the Spirit will from the Spirit reap eternal life. 9 And let us not grow weary in well-doing, for in due season we shall reap, if we do not lose heart. rsv

Click to expand...

I left eph. 2:10 out deliberately! You are already too hung up on your own good works.

Ephesians 2:8-9 tells us how we are saved! By grqace through faith without any works are we saved forever.

Verse 10 gives one reason WHY we are saved- to perform the deeds God marked out ahead of time we should do!

Good works cannot save nor do they keep us save- the death and resurrection and our trust in that act are what save us forever! Good works are a result of us being saved. You said it yourself- all of our sins were paid fo rby the blood. There is no more payment for our sin! they ALL have been washed away!

Jan001 said:

Enoch and Elijah are still alive, both their physical bodies and immortal spirits. The twenty-four elders' immortal spirits are alive but their physical bodies are dead and are still awaiting the resurrection of all the dead.

Click to expand...

What bodies are they sitting with?

"Any" sin does not necessarily make a person unrighteous. It depends on the sin. Only "mortal" sins make a person unrighteous. "Not mortal" sins do not make a person unrighteous.

Click to expand...

You're kidding, right?

1 John 5:16-17
If any one sees his brother committing what is not a mortal sin, he will ask, and God will give him life for those whose sin is not mortal. There is sin which is mortal; I do not say that one is to pray for that. 17 All wrongdoing is sin, but there is sin which is not mortal. rsv

Click to expand...

It is only your version of scripture that is substituting the word "mortal" for "unto death".
Sins unto death are sins men won't repent...turn from.

People who commit only "not mortal" sins do continue to have the Holy Spirit abiding in them. People who commit "mortal" sins do not continue to have the Holy Spirit abiding in them.
Scripture shows that there are two degrees of sin (mortal and not mortal) and also that there are two corresponding punishments for these:
Matthew 5:22
But I say to you that every one who is angry with his brother shall be liable to judgment; whoever insults his brother shall be liable to the council (prison), and whoever says, ‘You fool!’ shall be liable to the hell of fire. rsv

Click to expand...

What is the "judgement" of God for hate?
Permanent separation from God.
The punishment is the same in heaven,
You are incorrectly mixing Judaic judgement with God's eventual judgement.

There are two different types of fire. One type of fire purges the "not mortal" sinners of their "not mortal" sins, the other type of fire punishes the unrepentant "mortal" sinners for eternity.
There is a purging of "not mortal" sins by a fire in a temporary prison which is reserved for all "not mortal" sinners:
1 Corinthians 3:15
If any man’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire. rsv See also Matthew 5:25-26.
There is a "second death" punishment by everlasting fire which is reserved for unrepentant "mortal" sinners:
Romans 2:5
But by your hard and impenitent heart you are storing up wrath for yourself on the day of wrath when God’s righteous judgment will be revealed. rsv
Ephesians 5:5-7
Be sure of this, that no fornicator or impure man, or one who is covetous (that is, an idolater), has any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God. 6 Let no one deceive you with empty words, for it is because of these things that the wrath of God comes upon the sons of disobedience. 7 Therefore do not associate with them, rsv
1 Corinthians 6:9-10
Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither the immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor sexual perverts, 10 nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor robbers will inherit the kingdom of God. rsv
Colossians 3:5-6
Put to death therefore what is earthly in you: fornication, impurity, passion, evil desire, and covetousness, which is idolatry. 6 On account of these the wrath of God is coming. rsv
Galatians 5:19-21
Now the works of the flesh are plain: fornication, impurity, licentiousness, 20 idolatry, sorcery, enmity, strife, jealousy, anger, selfishness, dissension, party spirit, 21 envy, drunkenness, carousing, and the like. I warn you, as I warned you before, that those who do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God. rsv[/QUOTE]
The rest of your efforts here are only accommodations for sin.
By labeling one sin as worthy of death, and another sin as tolerable, you relax the prohibition on "some" sin.
This only enforces the false believer's faith that sin doesn't really warrant eternal fire.
What a mistake!

BCsenior said:

WOW! ... Roman Catholics all down through the ages ...
have had their sins washed away by full immersion water baptism!
I didn't know that ... goes to show we learn something every day.

Click to expand...

A person may receive baptism as commanded by Jesus Christ in Matthew 28:19-20 by immersion or by three times pouring water over the person's head while saying the words commanded by Jesus. Oftentimes, there was not enough water available for immersion. People had to obtain their water from cisterns or wells and so they used pots/jugs to carry it home.

You can find the following quote onlne at Didache. The Teaching of the Twelve Apostles (translation Roberts-Donaldson).

nolidad said:

I left eph. 2:10 out deliberately! You are already too hung up on your own good works.

Ephesians 2:8-9 tells us how we are saved! By grqace through faith without any works are we saved forever.

Verse 10 gives one reason WHY we are saved- to perform the deeds God marked out ahead of time we should do!

Good works cannot save nor do they keep us save- the death and resurrection and our trust in that act are what save us forever! Good works are a result of us being saved. You said it yourself- all of our sins were paid fo rby the blood. There is no more payment for our sin! they ALL have been washed away!

Click to expand...

Baptism washes away Adam's sin and also all of the person's sins which are on his soul at the time of his baptism. Baptism does not wash away any of his future sins. We must remain saved until our dying breath if we desire to be approved to inherit/enter eternal life. There is no such thing in Jesus' gospel as "once saved, always saved".

Luke 8:13
And the ones on the rock are those who, when they hear the word, receive it with joy; but these have no root, they believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away. rsv


It would be wise to leave Ephesians 2:10 intact.

We will all be judged by our works on Judgment Day. Our works will determine where we spend eternity. A person's good works will approve him for eternal life or his lack of good works will deny him eternal life.

Matthew 25:31-46

Phil W said:

What bodies are they sitting with?

Click to expand...

Their souls take the shape of their missing physical bodies. Have you ever seen a spirit/ghost? I have. They can appear standing, sitting, or whatever.

You're kidding, right?
It is only your version of scripture that is substituting the word "mortal" for "unto death".
Sins unto death are sins men won't repent...turn from.

Click to expand...

Unto death pertains to the second death/hellfire. Revelation 21:8

Revelation 2:11
He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. He who conquers shall not be hurt by the second death.’ rsv

A righteous person does not ever enter into the second death/hellfire and so he cannot be hurt by it.

Romans 6:16
Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey, you are that one’s slaves whom you obey, whether of sin leading to death, or of obedience leading to righteousness? nkjv

1 John 5:16-18
If anyone sees his brother sinning a sin which does not lead to death, he will ask, and He will give him life for those who commit sin not leading to death. 17 There is sin leading to death. 18 All unrighteousness is sin, and there is sin not leading to death. nkjv

Unrepented mortal sins (sins leading to death) cause a person to enter the second death/hellfire after he dies. Unrepented not mortal sins (sins not leading to death) do not cause a person to enter into the second death/hellfire after he dies.

What is the "judgement" of God for hate?
Permanent separation from God.
The punishment is the same in heaven,
You are incorrectly mixing Judaic judgement with God's eventual judgement.

Click to expand...

What is Judaic judgment? I have not heard of this.

There are two judgments, the personal judgment immediately after one's death such as the rich man's judgment in Luke 16 which is the first type of judgment Hebrews 9:27, and the final judgment of the sheep and goats. At this final judgment, everyone will see who is righteous and approved to enter into eternal life with God and everyone will also see who in unrighteous and condemned to enter into everlasting punishment/second death/hellfire. Matthew 25:31-46

The rest of your efforts here are only accommodations for sin.
By labeling one sin as worthy of death, and another sin as tolerable, you relax the prohibition on "some" sin.
This only enforces the false believer's faith that sin doesn't really warrant eternal fire.
What a mistake!

Click to expand...

All unrighteousness is sin, but there is sin not leading to death/second death/hellfire.

Mortal sins: Galatians 5:19-21

Ask yourself if you are sinless. If you are not sinless, then according to your reasoning that all sins warrant eternal fire, how will you ever be approved to enter eternal life? We all will reap what we sow. Galatians 6:8

Only the pure in heart shall see God. Nothing stained with sin can enter into heaven to be with the Father.

Matthew 5:8
“Blessed are the pure in heart, for they shall see God. rsv

I know that I am not sinless, however, I do not believe that I will warrant eternal fire for being selfish if I eat the largest piece of candy instead of offering it to my spouse first. And if I forget to confess this sin and do not repent of it before I die, I know that this sin will be purged through fire so that I can then be approved to enter eternal life with God the Father. Catholics call this temporary state of being purgatory. 1 Corinthians 3:14-15