Women's ultimate responsibility for world's sin

bèlla

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I understand you disagreed strongly with my post, but your tone is getting increasingly disappointing. We've had several good discussions here in the past, and I've always respected your posts, as you seem to have mine.

You insulted his wife. That’s out of line. She isn’t in the discussion. He is. No one has spoken disparagingly about your spouse and I doubt they would.
 
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kdm1984

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You write an interesting argument for rejecting feminism, kdm, but I think I have to side with most of the others in saying that there are better arguments for rejecting feminism, and more to the story in Scriptures that actually supports other arguments better.

One thing I ask myself often is "What is this particular passage in the Bible trying to tell me about the nature of God or the nature of mankind?" And I compare stories to see what I can glean there. Let's pick the story...say...the prophet who was traveling and God told him do NOT stop to eat but go there and come right back, but the local prophet there told the traveling prophet that God had told the local prophet to have the traveler eat with him. After the meal, the local prophet prophesied the death of the traveling prophet, one can assume it had something to do with disobeying, although the local prophet gave the traveling prophet honor in his death. You might remember that it seemed very evident that God had a hand in this plan because the lion that slew the traveling prophet was sitting there, along with the donkey, until someone came to get the traveling prophet. One would gather from comparing the stories that human nature has a clannish desire to allow someone else to lead, and in some cases, like when it's God, we would do well to obey in spite of anyone. Even Peter feel to this one when he would eat with the Gentiles until the people from James came down, then he withdrew because the Jews in general would not eat with others, and his hypocrisy almost led Barnabas astray. The tendency we have to fall away from God into the safety of humans hasn't stopped there. Jesus told us to not love anyone more than God, which is simply the first commandment stated another way. We'll probably never know what would have happened had Adam stood up and said NO, I refuse to disobey God. We do know that when Ninevah repented, so did God repent of His fierce judgement, although they later fell. Perhaps Adam's refusal then would have only postponed an act of rebellion later. We do see also that God didn't micromanage Adam and Eve, and He didn't keep the traveling prophet from the consequences of his disobedience. So I took the stories, came up with a reasonable intent, and now I can look to see what other scriptures support that idea or refute it. In most cases I'll learn something about the nature of God and the nature of man that will help me as I live today.

Of the many things I can learn from the Garden story, I don't find it helpful to think that if I am attacked, raped, and or murdered, that I should agree that since women brought sin into the world, it's just retribution. I believe, as scripture teaches, that whether I'm in the field or the city, if someone tries to perpetrate harm on me, I'm going to give strong effort to see that the court has a chance to deal out justice, since they are the arm of God to do that, at the same time praying that God will have mercy and give repentance to the perpetrator. And it wouldn't matter were I male or female, I would think it a sensible course to disable someone demonstrating their intentions to harm others. Just recently a young woman was shot dead a few miles from here, someone related to someone I know. At her funeral, one old man stood praying that people would forgive the murderer and not harbor hate in their hearts while the next man speaking said, yes, Lord, but we want Your justice on this murderer, that we forgive him but that YOU take him to justice and show mercy. It was one of those amazing moments where in my heart, I saw my prayer to be that this murderer would take on the life he took, by taking on the kindly actions the girl demonstrated during her life. What mercy and what justice it would be for him to trade his evil in true repentance and become a doer of the good she had been doing, living a righteous life from here on! And God clearly delights in showing kindness and mercy, along with justice: Jeremiah 9.24. If not, I feel sure he will forfeit what life he has, with no gain for having forced the loss of her life.

Like everyone here, we're all trying to make sense out of what we see in life and what we see in Scriptures, hopefully with the good help of the Comforter who reminds us of how Jesus fleshed out the words of God as He lived as the Word among us. Definitely none of us can claim entitlement by having been better than Adam and Eve, because if it hadn't been them, it would have been at least one of us, and I daresay, it would have been all of us. May we all see through the deceit by drawing ever closer to the Truth Himself.

Very well thought out, humble, and insightful post. Thank you. No flippant remarks about shopping or other nonsense.
 
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kdm1984

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You insulted his wife. That’s out of line. She isn’t in the discussion. He is. No one has spoken disparagingly about your spouse and I doubt they would.

To be fair, he insulted his own wife by saying she's obsessed with shopping.

EDIT: The moderating team has since removed this entire side discussion, so no one who reads this thread now can figure out what these remarks mean in context since the context has since been removed. Very bizarre.
 
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JackRT

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It is why Jesus could not have a human father. But, he could have a human mother. For the woman's ovum does not pass down the sin nature. Its the male's seed that does.

At a very early date the Christian church developed the theory / dogma of Original Sin based largely on the mythology of the creation as found in Genesis. Not realizing any better, they accepted the story as literal history. We all know, or should know, that the theory of Original Sin is based on the notion that we are a fallen race, unworthy of God because of the sin of our primeval parents Adam and Eve. St Augustine further developed the theory by stating that the stain of the Original Sin was passed on to the children through the seed of the father.

This concept further confirmed the notion in the early church that sex was inherently evil and to be discouraged except for procreation. What is interesting as well is that Genesis is a Jewish scripture and the Jews never developed the theory of Original Sin. Moreover, the rather earthy Jewish attitude toward sex lacks entirely the Christian distaste for it.

The notion that Original Sin was passed on through the father's seed, somewhat like a spiritual HIV virus, turns out to have been inherently flawed. We must realize, that at that point in history, it was believed that the father, and the father only, contributed what we would today call the genetic make up or DNA of the child. What they called the male seed was regarded as containing an entire nascent human being. As a consequence, they regarded any wastage of the seed as tantamount to murder. This explains why masturbation, coitus interuptus and even homosexual acts were considered to be serious sins. The role of the woman was solely that of providing the warm nurturing environment for the developing child. She had no genetic contribution to make. Since she contributed nothing to the make up of the child, she could, of course, not be the agency through which Original Sin was passed on. Of course the mother herself was cursed with Original Sin but this flaw in her was not felt to have any bearing on the state of the child.

Now when we link these notions to the Nativity story we get further complications. Mary was believed to have become pregnant through the agency of God. God of course contributed the seed (genetic material) and Mary's role for the next nine months was as a nurturing womb. Jesus was born sinless because of course God was sinless. The stain of the Original Sin did not afflict him. It did not matter that Mary was afflicted with the sin.

This entire theory fell apart several cemturies ago when it was discovered by microscopic studies that the mother did indeed contribute genetically to the child. She of course supplied the egg cell to be fertilized by the male sperm.

This realization seems to have provided a good deal of the impetus for the Roman Catholic doctrine of the Immaculate Conception. If Mary through her egg contributed to the genetic make up of Jesus then she too could pass on Original Sin. The Immaculate Conception solved this problem quite neatly by stating that Mary herself must have been concieved immaculately (without sin) through the agency of the grace of Jesus somehow applied retroactively.
 
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Neogaia777

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There is nothing wrong with loving your partner, serving her, and heeding godly counsel. It’s something else to surrender the reins and crown her king.
And where is that line, or thin red line "exactly"...?

Cause that what it feels like to me and a lot of men I think, a walk on a tightrope...

And some of us can't help but feel that it's her fault that we have to walk it, etc...

Which can sometimes manifest itself in some very ugly ways "sometimes", not always, but "sometimes"... Or eventually sometimes, etc...

God Bless!
 
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bèlla

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To be fair, he insulted his own wife by saying she's obsessed with shopping.

He can do it. She’s his wife. Maybe she is. But we don’t have the same latitude he does.

Your OP has been treated fairly. Many are trying to understand your perspective.
 
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klutedavid

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The woman was deceived. The man knew what he was doing.

God placed the responsibility on the man, not the woman.

That is why Jesus could not have a human father, but could have a human mother. Her ovum does not pass down the sin nature.

Romans 15:12 tells us that sin entered the world through one man. Its been ever since the male's "seed" that passes on the sin nature in copulation. Not the woman's ovum. That is why we read in Genesis 3:15, that the messiah would be born of the woman's seed!

God saw Adam as the responsible party.
Exactly, Eve was from Adam and the apple does not fall far from the tree (pun).

There is no doubt that Adam would have eventually had a nibble on the fruit of that tree, given enough time of course.
 
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kdm1984

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He can do it. She’s his wife. Maybe she is. But we don’t have the same latitude he does.

Your OP has been treated fairly. Many are trying to understand your perspective.

There have indeed been lots of great replies to it, and I'm glad about that, and have replied to such. But my point to you still stands; he made his wife out to be an imbecile, so I'm only following his logic. As an E__J, you seem much more concerned about social tact than I care to be. As an INTP, I take logic to the letter; disregard tact. If this makes you want to be snarky to me, so be it. I still respect a lot of your thoughts and have liked a lot of your posts here.
 
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JackRT

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When we look at the bible, both old and new testaments, we realize that they emerged from an extremely patriarchal society. This society devalued women to the extent that they were not even considered to be persons before the law. Not only were they devalued but they were in many ways considered to be of inferior intellect and of a carnal nature even moreso than the male. Patriarchy was simply part and parcel of their world view --- they simply were unable to think of the role of women in any other way. Today we know that women are the intellectual and spiritual equals of men and in every respect except physical size and strength.

Today, two thousand years later, patriarchy is dying and this thread is proof positive that it won't go down without a fight.
 
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Gregory Thompson

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I realize this won't be a popular post, but I'm aiming for truth, here, not the feelings of comfort or the approval of other people, so come what may.

When we really get down to it, every sin problem in the world points back to Eve. She ate the fruit. Adam wasn't deceived, but Eve gave him the fruit. She chose to know what evil was, and so now we have evil in the world because of woman.

With this in mind, I cannot ever support feminism, despite being female. Whatever sin, rape, murder, etc. happens to woman, we brought it on ourselves through the actions of our original ancestor. It makes no logical sense to demand rights, love, etc. when all the problems of evil/sin in the world were brought on by us in the first place. WE are the ones who brought this mess on humanity, not Adam/men. Every sin you see -- that's ultimately all on Eve, the woman.
Part of the reason both Adam and Eve were cast out of the garden was because they kept shifting blame. This is the ultimate reason why they could not be where "I am" is, being unable face the truth.

So blame oriented explanations are following the same pattern and are misguided.
 
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Neogaia777

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My identity as a man and as a male is more important to me than being with someone or anyone who wishes to take that away from me...

BTW, I'm single if you haven't guessed that already, but I was married to a female like this for many, many years before this though...

And believe me, I tried everything, EVERYTHING, and nothing and none of it ever worked in the end...

Never abused her at all in any way whatsoever, (other than emotional abandonment eventually) when and where I'm pretty dang sure most men would have, etc, and from stories I've heard of her past, did, etc... and she even said that they, every single one of them who did abuse her, in multiple different ways, including psychically all the time, were all much more of man or men than me, or I was, etc... Anyway... Hurt and kind of pain I had never ever felt or experienced ever before, etc... Anyway, enough about that...

I don't normally think most women to be pure flat out evil, but with her, I might, etc...

God Bless!
 
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~Zao~

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I'm missing what that has do with it or this though...?

Could you explain maybe...?
It’s just that I don’t see the parents of mankind as representatives of the human population. Seth, Cain and Abel were moreso and it was to Cain that the warnings were given. Mary, Martha and Lazarus seem to be the NT results of God’s thoughts on human nature.
 
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bèlla

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And where is that line, or thin red line "exactly"...?

I have no interest in emasculating or diminishing his manhood in any way. I am aware that many weren’t privy to the positive examples of masculinity and femininity I was reared with.

Above all, he must lead. I can’t do it for him. Not because I’m incapable. That’s my gift. But to do so would transgress God’s order. And that isn’t permissible.

Since I’m single I can only reference the gentlemen I’ve dated. Our mutual well-being is foremost. They are providers but their needs don’t go unmet.

I enjoy pleasing my partner and appreciate his protection and guidance. I don’t feel lesser. Our roles have been accorded by God.

You must regard the Creator and the institution He established before you can appreciate the divine being standing before you. Otherwise you’ll revolt or laden him with burdens he was never meant to hold. We’re a team.

I have never married but I’ve always related this way. :)
 
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bèlla

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But my point to you still stands; he made his wife out to be an imbecile, so I'm only following his logic. As an E__J, you seem much more concerned about social tact than I care to be.

That is a reflection of my breeding not Myers. It is a question of place on that issue. But we’ll agree to disagree.

It is not my intention to be snarky. This is a good thread and I don’t want it shut down over insults.
 
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Neogaia777

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I have no interest in emasculating or diminishing his manhood in any way. I am aware that many weren’t privy to the positive examples of masculinity and femininity I was reared with.

Above all, he must lead. I can’t do it for him. Not because I’m incapable. That’s my gift. But to do so would transgress God’s order. And that isn’t permissible.

Since I’m single I can only reference the gentlemen I’ve dated. Our mutual well-being is foremost. They are providers but their needs don’t go unmet.

I enjoy pleasing my partner and appreciate his protection and guidance. I don’t feel lesser. Our roles have been accorded by God.

You must regard the Creator and the institution He established before you can appreciate the divine being standing before you. Otherwise you’ll revolt or laden him with burdens he was never meant to hold. We’re a team.

I have never married but I’ve always related this way. :)
A man would have to very careful with you if you were to allow him to do that, or have that kind of relationship with you, to treat you right and not ever abuse you ever, in any way, or let that kind of authority go to his head too much, so to speak... something like that might be very fragile and would most definitely be very, very rare, and if not handled with the utmost care...? And if not protected, upheld, and cherished, every single day, day in and day out...? anyway, I wouldn't want to screw it or that up for one...

God Bless!
 
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Alien Lotus

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I realize this won't be a popular post, but I'm aiming for truth, here, not the feelings of comfort or the approval of other people, so come what may.

When we really get down to it, every sin problem in the world points back to Eve. She ate the fruit. Adam wasn't deceived, but Eve gave him the fruit. She chose to know what evil was, and so now we have evil in the world because of woman.

With this in mind, I cannot ever support feminism, despite being female. Whatever sin, rape, murder, etc. happens to woman, we brought it on ourselves through the actions of our original ancestor. It makes no logical sense to demand rights, love, etc. when all the problems of evil/sin in the world were brought on by us in the first place. WE are the ones who brought this mess on humanity, not Adam/men. Every sin you see -- that's ultimately all on Eve, the woman.
I would posit it isn't going to be a popular post because it is biblically unsound and therefore untrue.

When we get down to it the question then becomes, why would someone argue contrary to God's word in order to interpolate God's words to impugn the first woman's character? And claim, contrary to God's words, that it was she who is ultimately responsible for the worlds sin? When God our creator said no such thing in his own words.
Are we then to correct God for our own reasons? Is it reasonable to think we are entitled to do so?

Romans 5:12
Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned ...

God's words tell us God does everything for his own glory. That would include, in the beginning and all of creation and created.

Colossians 1:16 (ESV)For by him all things were created, in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all things were created through him and for him.

Isaiah 43:7 (ESV)7 everyone who is called by my name,whom I created for my glory,whom I formed and made.”

The creator of all things past, present, and future, God from whom and of all things created are created planted the forbidden tree in the garden of Eden. That which, once eaten by Adam and Eve, made them like unto God. With the knowledge of good and evil. Right and wrong.
They were led to believe they , innocents with no knowledge, could eat of that tree and by that serpent allowed entry into paradise. Because the enemy of God could not create anything for himself that God would be unaware of existing.
Genesis 3:22
Then the LORD God said, “Behold, the man has become like one of Us, knowing good and evil. And now, lest he reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life, and eat, and live forever...”

God recognized the man, who ate of the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, had become like unto God. Knowing good and evil.
God did not say, the woman has become like one of us. God said the man had done so. Because God created the man first. Genesis 2:7










 
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2PhiloVoid

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I realize this won't be a popular post, but I'm aiming for truth, here, not the feelings of comfort or the approval of other people, so come what may.

When we really get down to it, every sin problem in the world points back to Eve. She ate the fruit. Adam wasn't deceived, but Eve gave him the fruit. She chose to know what evil was, and so now we have evil in the world because of woman.

With this in mind, I cannot ever support feminism, despite being female. Whatever sin, rape, murder, etc. happens to woman, we brought it on ourselves through the actions of our original ancestor. It makes no logical sense to demand rights, love, etc. when all the problems of evil/sin in the world were brought on by us in the first place. WE are the ones who brought this mess on humanity, not Adam/men. Every sin you see -- that's ultimately all on Eve, the woman.

Hi kdm,

May I ask: Is this your own interpretation, or is it the one that your church teaches? Either way, I'd tend to say that the passage needs to be treated a bit more thoroughly because I don't think the Bible on the whole 'ultimately blames' women (or Eve) for the Fall. There's much more to it all than that.

Anyway, I was just passing by on a hot afternoon and I thought I'd throw a couple of cents into the coffer of discussion. Be blessed! :cool:
 
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JackRT

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Part of the reason both Adam and Eve were cast out of the garden was because they kept shifting blame.

Actually the Bible itself provides the reason:

Genesis 3:
22 And the Lord God said, Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil: and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever:

23 Therefore the Lord God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken.

It would seem that the Elohim (the pantheon of the gods) were somewhat afraid that since the first couple now knew good from evil, they could not risk that they could live forever.
 
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bèlla

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A man would have to very careful with you if you were to allow him to do that

I have never been abused in any form. I was raised in an environment where men and women adhered to their biblical roles and did so willingly. I had no exposure to feminist teachings until college.

I do not cede blanket authority in the manner you’re supposing. I have an agreeable disposition and know my place. I have no want to compete with my partner because I’ve achieved much. I have nothing to prove. His rise is an asset not a threat. I want us to soar as one.

And if not protected, upheld, and cherished, every single day, day in and day out...? anyway, I wouldn't want to screw it or that up for one...

Many don’t know what to do with me. ~laughs

I like assertive men with drive who know what they want and aren’t afraid to pursue it. Our temperaments are complementary. I’m not a damsel or fragile. I know how to stand and lead. I need a partner who can as well.

That’s the one I’m waiting for. :)
 
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