Are the conditional promises of the old covenant still in effect?

Are the conditional promises of the old covenant still in effect?

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  • no


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joshua 1 9

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Your just insisting on believing in a reality which does not exist.
As a general rule I have found again and again that people are guilty of what they accuse others of. God only gives us the ability to judge our own heart and there are people that can not deal with that so they project it out on others. This is why Jesus says: Matthew 7 "3 Why do you see the speck that is in your brother's eye, but do not notice the log that is in your own eye?"
 
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JIMINZ

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As a general rule I have found again and again that people are guilty of what they accuse others of. God only gives us the ability to judge our own heart and there are people that can not deal with that so they project it out on others. This is why Jesus says: Matthew 7 "3 Why do you see the speck that is in your brother's eye, but do not notice the log that is in your own eye?"


Good comeback! :oldthumbsup:
 
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ralliann

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As Paul clearly states, the addition of the old covenant DOES NOT ANNUL the covenant made with Abraham as to make the promise void.

Trying to clear somethings up.
What do you mean the addition of the old covenant? Maybe we are having a difference in our terms?
It seems you are saying the Sinai covenant (old covenant) was added to the Abrahamic covenant?
Or am I misunderstanding you? But if not....I believe scripture teaches that nothing was added to the Abrahamic covenant.
Gal 3:15 Brethren, I speak after the manner of men; Though it be but a man’s covenant, yet if it be confirmed, no man disannulleth, or addeth thereto.
Galatians 3:16-18 Now the promises were made to Abraham and to his offspring. It does not say, “And to offsprings,” referring to many, but referring to one, “And to your offspring,” who is Christ. This is what I mean: the law, which came 430 years afterward, does not annul a covenant previously ratified by God, so as to make the promise void. For if the inheritance comes by the law, it no longer comes by promise; but God gave it to Abraham by a promise.


Paul states that the Abrahamic promises (PLURAL) were made to Abraham and his offspring. The offspring being Christ.

The addition of the old covenant, which was conditional upon Israel's obedience to the law of Moses, does not annul the unconditional promises to Abraham and his offspring, because the offspring is Jesus.

The covenant was not added that I can see, but law was added.
The abrahamic promises are to Abraham's offspring, who is Christ. The old covenant was made with the nation of Israel.
It does. IF Israel obeyed the law of Moses, GOd would bless Israel (deuteronomy 28:1-14). IF Israel disobeyed the law of Moses, God would curse Israel (deuteronomy 28:15-68). After the blessings and curses had been poured, IF Israel turned back to God, He would restore them from captivity and return them to the land and cirucmcise their heart (Deuteronomy 30:1-6).

So we see that God does have promises to fulfill in the old covenant agreement, whether it is bestowing blessings or curses on Israel.

If I am side tracking the thread just say so and I will no longer address this here but.
The blessing promised were dispensed by the Abrahamic covenant God keeps. There is a distinction between the two covenants. The law added was law given through the Sinai covenant. The law Abraham kept is the law of faith. The sinai covenant was a law of works.

As Paul says
Ro 3:27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.
Ga 3:12 And the law is not of faith: but, The man that doeth them shall live in them.
So is this old covenant agreement still in effect? Are the conditional promises of the old covenant still in effect?
I do not think so. But the Abrahamic promise leaves them a remnant perhaps.



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claninja

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So are you saying we have no choice? Jesus is a bully and He forces us to accept His will if we want to or not? That does not sound like the Jesus I know. Nor does this sound like something Jesus would teach.

You are either a slave to sin or slave to God.

IF it is impossible to choose life then why would Deut 30:19 tell us to "Now choose life, so that you and your children may live"? What you are saying seems to contradict what Moses is telling us.

If it was possible to choose life under the law, there would have been no need for a new covenant.



Hebrews 8:7 For if that first covenant had been without fault, no place would have been sought for a second

If we could choose life under the law, we could earn our own salvation through righteous works. But as it is, no one is justified in the sight of God by their own choices.

Romans 3:20 For by works of the law no human beingc will be justified in his sight, since through the law comes knowledge of sin.
 
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claninja

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is saying that the law does not save us, Jesus saves us. The law is still a teacher to show us the way of righteousness. Paul is not suggesting lawlessness at all.

Not sure how you got any of that from galatians 3:16, which is what I was talking about. Going back to galatians 3:16, we see that the promises (PLURAL) that were made to Abraham and his offspring were to Christ because, as paul states, Jesus is the offspring mentioned.

Galatians 3:16 Now the promises were made to Abraham and to his offspring. It does not say, “And to offsprings,” referring to many, but referring to one, “And to your offspring,” who is Christ
 
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claninja

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Israel is looking for the Lion of Judah, they do not understand the Lamb of God. Rev 5:5 "5 Then one of the elders said to me, “Do not weep! Behold, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the root of David, has triumphed to open the scroll and its seven seals.”

This is the same David who begins the Psalms with:

"1 Blessed is the man who does not walk in the counsel of the wicked, or set foot on the path of sinners, or sit in the seat of mockers. 2 But his delight is in the law of the LORD, and on His law he meditates day and night. 3 He is like a tree planted by streams of water, yielding its fruit in season, whose leaf does not wither, and who prospers in all he does" Psalm 1 (note the tree of life that we read about in Rev)

The beginning ALWAYS sets the pace David begins with expressing his "delight in the law of the Lord". This is the way of life - health & prosperity. If people do not understand they are on the way to destruction. As Peter tells us: "His letters contain some things that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the other Scriptures, to their own destruction." (2 Peter 3:16)

This is why in my vision Paul told me himself that we are to live right before God. We were discussing Psalm 14: The Fool Says There is No God "1 For the choirmaster. Of David. The fool says in his heart, “There is no God.” They are corrupt; their acts are vile. There is no one who does good. 2 The LORD looks down from heaven upon the sons of men to see if any understand, if any seek God. 3 All have turned away, they have together become corrupt; there is no one who does good, not even one."

There is a clear distinction between those who belong to God and those who do not. If I had not had this vision of Paul, I would skip over this pretty quick. But as it is I keep coming back to what David and Paul are telling us and wanting us to know.

Israel attempted righteousness by the works of the law, but did not obtain it. Thus we cannot choose life under the old covenant through righteous works.

Romans 9:31-32 but that Israel who pursued a law that would lead to righteousnessd did not succeed in reaching that law. Why? Because they did not pursue it by faith, but as if it were based on works

The law was a shadow of Christ, and not the reality. It is through Christ that life is given.

John 3:36 Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; whoever does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him.
 
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claninja

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Trying to clear somethings up.
What do you mean the addition of the old covenant? Maybe we are having a difference in our terms?
It seems you are saying the Sinai covenant (old covenant) was added to the Abrahamic covenant?
Or am I misunderstanding you? But if not....I believe scripture teaches that nothing was added to the Abrahamic covenant.
Gal 3:15 Brethren, I speak after the manner of men; Though it be but a man’s covenant, yet if it be confirmed, no man disannulleth, or addeth thereto.

The old covenant is not the same as the promise made to Abraham and his offspring.

The Abrahamic promises are unconditional to Abraham and his offspring

The old covenant was a conditional agreement between God and Israel that came 430 years after the unconditional promises to Abraham and his offspring.

We need to understand Paul's argument. If the promise to Abraham and his offspring was unconditional how can the promises of the old covenant agreement be conditional?

Because the offspring that the unconditional promises referred to in Abraham's case is Christ.

Galatians 3:17 This is what I mean: the law, which came 430 years afterward, does not annul a covenant previously ratified by God, so as to make the promise void

Galatians 3:16 Now the promises were made to Abraham and to his offspring. It does not say, “And to offsprings,” referring to many, but referring to one, “And to your offspring,” who is Christ

Thus God made an unconditional promise with Abraham and his offspring. The offspring being Christ.

God made a conditional promise through the old covenant with nation of Israel.

The confusion is founded upon the belief that the offspring from the Abrahamic promises and nation of Israel are the same. Thus it would be contradictory for God to make an unconditional promise with the offspring (nation of Israel) and a conditional promise with the nation of Israel.

But Paul clarifies that the offspring of the Abrahamic promises is singular and not plural in a grammatical sense, thus the offspring is Jesus. This fixes the contradiction.

The covenant was not added that I can see, but law was added.

the old covenant was the agreement between in Israel and God. If Israel obeyed all of the law, God would bless them. the agreement was put in place when the law was given.

If I am side tracking the thread just say so and I will no longer address this here but.
The blessing promised were dispensed by the Abrahamic covenant God keeps. There is a distinction between the two covenants. The law added was law given through the Sinai covenant. The law Abraham kept is the law of faith. The sinai covenant was a law of works.

The Abrahamic promise was one sided on the part of God, not Abraham. It was given prior to circumcision. Thus the Abrahamic promise was unconditional

The old covenant was 2 sided. Israel was required to obey all of the law for God to give the blessings.


do not think so. But the Abrahamic promise leaves them a remnant perhaps.

Good, we are in agreement that the conditional promises of the old covenant are no longer in effect. The Abrahamic promises are fulfilled in Christ and apply to all those in Christ even today.
 
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joshua 1 9

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The law was a shadow of Christ, and not the reality. It is through Christ that life is given.
Matthew 5:18 "For I tell you truly, until heaven and earth pass away, not a single jot, not a stroke of a pen, will disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. 19 So then, whoever breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do likewise will be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever practices and teaches them will be called great in the kingdom of heaven."

Are you telling us it is ok to break the commandments and teach other to do the same?
 
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JIMINZ

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Matthew 5:18 "For I tell you truly, until heaven and earth pass away, not a single jot, not a stroke of a pen, will disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. 19 So then, whoever breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do likewise will be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever practices and teaches them will be called great in the kingdom of heaven."

Are you telling us it is ok to break the commandments and teach other to do the same?


But by Jesus Himself hanging on the Cross, He did in fact accomplish everything.

Unless of course Jesus left before He was able to accomplish everything He was sent here by the Father to do.
 
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joshua 1 9

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joshua 1 9

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But by Jesus Himself hanging on the Cross, He did in fact accomplish everything.
Jesus said: "It is finished" before I was even born. So the finished work of Jesus still has to do a work in our life. We are to be sanctified, holy, whole, complete and mature in Him. If the tree does not bear fruit then it is to be cut down and thrown into the fire.
 
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JIMINZ

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joshua 1 9

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If it was possible to choose life under the law, there would have been no need for a new covenant.
Life is always the right choice. But life is not always the easy choice. Look at Downs Syndrome for example. It is recommended to abort a Downs Syndrome baby. But there are people that choose life and choose to give life to this baby. They commit themselves to take care of this child. I am sure this is not an easy choice to make. Still are we not told to choose life? My son is working on a degree in computer engineering. He said this is not an easy choice to make. Yet he is making a choice for prosperity. We can choose poverty or prosperity, that is out choice to make. Even there is a lot more to prosperity then just money. Still this is always the right choice to make even if it is not the easy choice. As Jesus says easy is the way to destruction. Difficult is the way to life.
 
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claninja

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Matthew 5:18 "For I tell you truly, until heaven and earth pass away, not a single jot, not a stroke of a pen, will disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. 19 So then, whoever breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do likewise will be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever practices and teaches them will be called great in the kingdom of heaven."

Are you telling us it is ok to break the commandments and teach other to do the same?

That is not what I said at all, please go back and re-read my post.
 
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JIMINZ

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Yes, we are told many are called but few are chosen. I believe I am a part of the "few".

Do you then believe, those who are the called, have the ability to refuse that calling?

Do you then believe, those who are the chosen, do not have the ability to refuse?
 
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joshua 1 9

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Do you then believe, those who are the called, have the ability to refuse that calling?
Yes and I know they have huge discussions about this. Neuroscience tells us that we do have choice. This is what makes us human and above the animals. Man's laws dictate that we know right from wrong and we are responsible to make the right choices in life. Love is not love if love is not freely given.

Do you then believe, those who are the chosen, do not have the ability to refuse?
The Bible says many are called but few are chosen. We respond to God's call by living a life of holiness and sanctification. Yes we still have animal hormones but we are called to control our human nature. Again man requires that of us and God requires that if we want to serve Him and be used by Him. If we want to take our priesthood and our calling serious. 1Peter2:9 "But you are a chosen people, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, God's special possession, that you may declare the praises of him who called you out of darkness into his wonderful light."
 
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