Is this legal in the UMC?

Oh, they can definitely withhold apportionments. The "trust clause", in which the Conference holds title to the building and property, is irrelevant to this question. It just means the church isn't paying its fair share.

I wouldn't be looking for any assistance with moving from them either if you get the job. I suspect from the brief description you've given that there are bigger issues money-wise than simply the traditionalist/progressive split.

I am a guest of this thread > I think, that possibly you need to evaluate if you should minister with someone who does not answer your questions.

com7fy8 said:

I am a guest of this thread > I think, that possibly you need to evaluate if you should minister with someone who does not answer your questions.

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That was actually the part that raised the red flag with me, too. Between their cavalier attitude toward apportionments, and then his refusal to answer a question about assistance with moving expenses, I would be asking myself if these are people I want to associate with.

actionsub you said:

his refusal

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But Rawtheran said:

he was very evasive about that question.

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To me, evading is not refusing. It is indirectly not answering the question. But, actually, it is a way of refusing to answer. It is just not direct.

"I refuse to answer that question" would be direct.

com7fy8 said:

To me, evading is not refusing. It is indirectly not answering the question. But, actually, it is a way of refusing to answer. It is just not direct.

"I refuse to answer that question" would be direct.

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Rawtheran said:

Sorry I didn't clarify this in the OP but he offered to have me interview with SPRC and I turned down the offer due to it being so suspicious.

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That's the thing right there. Evasion is a passive-aggressive means of refusal. Rawtheran was right, IMO, to pass on this. It seemed a little hinky to me too.

Rawtheran said:

Last Friday I was interviewing with a Pastor to possibly takeover the Youth Pastor position that was open at his church.

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Rawtheran said:

he offered to have me interview with SPRC

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According to my Google search > SPRC can mean >

Suicide Prevention Resource Center.

If this is what you mean by SPRC, how does an interview for Youth Pastor ministry move to him offering to help you apply for some kind of an interview with SPRC?

Rawtheran said:

In the United Methodist Church SPRC is an acronym for Staff-Parish Relations Committee. They are essentially the church board/council.

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So, it is not the Suicide Prevention Resource Center.

As I say . . . my excuse . . . I am a guest here lolololololololol

If you consider that church, it could be good to talk with their church's relations committee, so you can get to know the church, including if your Biblical understanding fits with their church, plus they might know how the church might be interested in helping you move.

After all . . . among other things, my opinion is a pastor can be more specialized for prayer and ministering God's word and counsel, while others might be specialized in financial matters and commitments.

And in case you find you trust them . . . you can work things out as you go along. If you have trust as God's family, I suppose you do not need to spell out a lot of things in a contract, but trust God.

com7fy8 said:

According to my Google search > SPRC can mean >

Suicide Prevention Resource Center.

If this is what you mean by SPRC, how does an interview for Youth Pastor ministry move to him offering to help you apply for some kind of an interview with SPRC?

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The SPRC isn’t the Church Council. The Church Council is over the whole Church. the SPRC (Staff Parish Relations Committee) is similar to a personnel committee. In many multi-staff UM congregation the SPRC hires all non-pastoral staff in consultation with the Lead/Senior Pastor.

The SPRC (or PPRC when pastor is the only staff...and I've even see SPPRC!) also acts as a mediator between the pastor and the congregation, which seems to lead many laypeople to believe that they would much rather serve a comparable rotation in hell itself than on the SPRC.

Rawtheran said:

Thanks for the clarification Methodized, things in the UMC are very confusing at times because there are so many committees. Something I did wonder about was why do Candidates for Ministry when going through the process have to go before the SPRC and get their recommendation to interview with DCOM, whereas in other denominations they would have to interview with the Church Board?

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Oh you don't get to escape having a church/admin council interview too. You get to do it after your SPRC interview provided they decide to recommend you!

Rawtheran said:

Last Friday I was interviewing with a Pastor to possibly takeover the Youth Pastor position that was open at his church. He has been in ministry for over 40 years and is very knowledgeable and wise. However, during the interview he admitted to me that he and the congregation were members of the Wesleyan Covenant Association which I thought was alright. However what he said next really shocked me and that was since they don't support the current leadership and ministry choices they have withheld $30,000 from conference apportionments. During the negotiations I also asked the Pastor if the church would be able to use some funds to help me move or to at least help with finding a place but he was very evasive about that question. So I was wondering can a local church actually withhold conference apportionments? I didn't think a local church could since the church property and land are owned by the conference?

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I have not been a member for several decades, but was always told when I was a member that local churches had no choice and that it was mandatory to pay conference claims. Either things have changed in the past 35 years or else someone is not telling the truth.

Rawtheran said:

So I was wondering can a local church actually withhold conference apportionments? I didn't think a local church could since the church property and land are owned by the conference?

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I think the answer is that they may not but they can. That is, they are obligated to pay but that's not normally enforced.

If you're joining a church in the WCA, you should think about two questions (1) the WCA seems to want to either split the UMC or exit it; is that OK with you? (2) the WCA takes a fairly aggressive stand on controversies. Are you OK with that? There are, of course, liberal equivalents of the WCA, and you might also ask questions about a church that's part of that. But if you're looking for a traditional UMC church, which is fairly broad, you might find a WCA church different, depending upon how seriously they take the WCA membership.

If a church doesn't pay its apportionments, it is forbidden to pay its pastor. If a church pays only a certain percentage of its apportionments, it must pay its pastor only that percentage of their salary.

¶ 622. When the apportionments for bishops, district superintendents, conference claimants, and the Equitable Compensation Fund for the several districts and charges have been determined, payments made to the same in each pastoral charge shall be exactly proportional to the amount paid on the clergy base compensation (¶ 818.3). The treasurer or treasurers of each pastoral charge shall accordingly make proportional distribution of the funds raised in that charge for the support of the ordained ministry and shall remit monthly if practicable and quarterly at the latest the items for bishops, district superintendents, conference claimants, and the Equitable Compensation Fund to the proper treasurer or treasurers."

¶ 639.4. Proportional Payment—The board shall compare the records of the amounts paid by each pastoral charge for the support of pastors and for pension and benefit programs, computing the proportional distribution thereof and keeping a permanent record of defaults of the churches of the conference that have failed to observe the following provisions pertaining to proportional payment, and shall render annually to each church that is in default a statement of the amounts in default for that and preceding years.

• a) When the apportionment to the pastoral charges for the pension and benefit program of the annual conference has been determined, payments made thereon by each pastoral charge shall be exactly proportionate to payments made on the salary or salaries of the ordained minister or clergy serving it.

¶ 818.3. Proportionality—The amount apportioned to a charge for the Episcopal Fund shall be paid in the same proportion as the charge pays its pastor (see also ¶ 622).

revanneosl said:

If a church doesn't pay its apportionments, it is forbidden to pay its pastor. If a church pays only a certain percentage of its apportionments, it must pay its pastor only that percentage of their salary.

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That isn't what it really says. The way it reads to me is that the church must cover all insurance and pension liabilities for the pastors.

I know for a fact that churches in my conference that are behind in their apportionment still pay their pastors and that, as long as they are paying for the pension and insurance (billed separately from conference apportionment) it doesn't effect the pastor being paid.