Everyone should be watching developments in Israel

LittleLambofJesus · Aug 6, 2019

kcnalp said: ↑
Sit back and watch God fight for Israel. It's gonna be great!

God fights for those who are of the Faith of Jesus and of the NC New Jerusalem Saints.

Who were the ones fighting against Jesus and the New Jerusalem Saints back in the 1st century?
I am of the view that is speaking of the corrupt murderous Judean Rulers and Jewish Zealots/Rebels in the 1st century
Read Josephus.

OC Jerusalem and Lake of Fire

Zechariah 14:12
12 And this shall be the plague with which the LORD will strike all the people who fought against Jerusalem: Their flesh shall dissolve while they stand on their feet, Their eyes shall dissolve in their sockets, And their tongues shall dissolve in their mouths.

Eze 2:3 - And He saith unto Me, 'Son of man, I am sending thee unto the sons of Israel, unto nations who are rebels, who have rebelled against Me; they and their fathers have transgressed against Me, unto this self-same day.
Eze 20:38 - “I will purge the rebels from among you, and those who transgress against Me; I will bring them out of the country where they dwell, but they shall not enter the land of Israel. Then you will know that I am the LORD.
Hos 5:2 - The rebels are knee-deep in slaughter. I will discipline all of them.

The Destruction of Jerusalem - George Peter Holford, 1805AD

While Jerusalem was a prey to these ferocious and devouring factions, every part of Judea was scourged and laid waste by bands of robbers and murderers, who plundered the towns; and, in case of resistance, slew the inhabitants, not sparing either women or children. Simon, son of Gioras, the commander of one of these bands, at the head of forty thousand banditti, having with some difficulty entered Jerusalem, gave birth to a third faction, and the flame of civil discord blazed out again, with still more destructive fury. The three factions, rendered frantic by drunkenness, rage, and desperation, trampling on heaps of slain, fought against each other with brutal savageness and madness. Even such as brou't sacrifices to the temple were murdered. The dead bodies of priests and worshippers, both natives and foreigners were heaped together, and a lake of blood stagnated in the sacred courts. John of Gischala, who headed one of the factions, burnt storehouses full of provisions ; and Simon, his great antagonist, who headed another of them, soon afterwards followed his example. Thus they cut the very sinews of their own strength. At this critical and alarming c onjuncture, intelligence arrived that the Roman an army was approaching the city.
================
Please visit my Ezekiel 22 "gather Jews in to Jerusalem 70ad" thread.

EZEKIEL 22 "GATHER HOUSE OF ISRAEL INTO JERUSALEM TO MELT IN FURNACE/GEHENNA/LAKE OF FIRE"

LittleLambofJesus said:
Lately as I read thru Ezekiel 22, I actually envisioned it as being Jerusalem 70ad.
This almost sounds like what happens when an "atomic bomb" is dropped on a city.
What is this prophecy about if not about 1st century Jerusalem? Discuss...
.

Amo 2:5
But I will send a fire upon Judah,
And it shall devour the palaces of Jerusalem.”

Ezekiel 22:
1 And there is a word of Yahweh unto me, saying, 2 ‘And thou, son of adam! dost thou judge? dost thou judge the City of blood? then thou hast caused it to know all its abominations,
17 And there is a word of Yahweh unto me, saying, ‘Son of adam!18 The House of Israel hath been to Me for dross, All of them [are] brass, and tin, and iron, and lead, In the midst of a furnace — dross hath silver been,
19 Therefore, thus said Adonay Yahweh: Because of your all becoming dross, Therefore, behold!
I am gathering you unto the midst of Jerusalem,
20 A gathering of silver, and brass, and iron, and lead, and tin, Unto the midst of a furnace — to blow on it fire, to melt it,
So do I gather in Mine anger and in My fury, And I have let rest, and have melted you.
21 And I have heaped you up, And blown on you in the fire of My wrath<5678>, And ye have been melted<5413> in its midst.
22 As the melting of silver in the midst of a furnace, So are ye melted in its midst, And ye have known that I, Yahweh, I have poured out My fury<2534> upon you.’
============
Matthew 23:
33 "Serpents! produce of vipers! how? ye may be fleeing from the judging<2920> of the Gehenna<1067!
=========================
And what better time to gather them to Jerusalem than the Feast of the Passover.....

The Destruction of Jerusalem - George Peter Holford, 1805AD

The day on which Titus encompassed Jerusalem, was the feast of the Passover.
At this season multitudes came up from all the surrounding country, and from distant parts, to keep the festival and the city was at this time crowded with Jewish strangers,...........

.......The Temple now presented little more than a heap of ruins
====================
Revelation 16:19
Now the great City was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell.
And great Babylon was remembered before God, to give her the cup of the wine of the FURY<2372> of His wrath.

Ezekiel 22:22
As the melting of silver in the midst of a furnace, So are ye melted in its midst, And ye have known that I, Yahweh, I have poured out My fury<2534> upon you.’

Isa 63:3
“I have trodden the winepress alone, And from the peoples no one was with Me.
For I have trodden them in My wrath, And trampled them in My fury;
Their blood is sprinkled upon My garments,And I have stained all My robes.

Jer 7:
2 “Stand in the gate of the LORD’s house, and proclaim there this word, and say, ‘Hear the word of the LORD, all you of Judah who enter in at these gates to worship the LORD!’ ”
20 Therefore thus says the Lord GOD: “Behold, My wrath and My fury will be poured out on this place—on man and on beast, on the trees of the field and on the fruit of the ground. And it will burn and not be quenched.”

parousia70 · Aug 6, 2019

kcnalp said:
Check out the OT where God fought for Israel.

Great Idea!

Lets look at one example, and see what we can glean from it about the nature of How God "fights in the day of Battle":

In 2 Samuel 22, God came on the clouds down to earth and fought FOR David AGAINST Saul:

2 Samuel 22:8-16

8“Then the earth shook and trembled;
The foundations of heaven quaked and were shaken,
Because He was angry.
9 Smoke went up from His nostrils,
And devouring fire from His mouth;
Coals were kindled by it.
10 He bowed the heavens also, and came down
With darkness under His feet.
11 He rode upon a cherub, and flew;
And He was seen upon the wings of the wind.
12 He made darkness canopies around Him,
Dark waters and thick clouds of the skies.
13 From the brightness before Him
Coals of fire were kindled.

14 “The Lord thundered from heaven,
And the Most High uttered His voice.
15 He sent out arrows and scattered them;
Lightning bolts, and He vanquished them.
16 Then the channels of the sea were seen,
The foundations of the world were uncovered,
At the rebuke of the Lord,
At the blast of the breath of His nostrils.

This took place when David Defeated Saul and His armies.
David testifies several things happened at that time:

The entire heavens and earth shook,
The Heavens were Bowed
God was visibly seen riding a Cherub through the clouds
He kindled coals with His brightness
Smoke was billowing from His Nostrils
Fire shot out of His mouth
He Shot Arrows
He laid the foundations of the entire earth and sea Bare

How do you figure this global, earth shattering event managed to go TOTALLY UNNOTICED in History, for I cant find it in any of my history books, nor on any website detailing the world History form that time period such as this one:
1000-600 BCE: c. 1000 BCE - c. 600 BCE - Oxford Reference

... Surely something as monumental as God Being Seen Riding A Cherub through the clouds, shooting arrows, causing the heavens and earth and sea be laid bare while He lit fires with His breath would have been recorded in ALL the history books, no?

LittleLambofJesus · Aug 6, 2019

parousia70 said:
David testifies several things happened at that time:.......
How do you figure this global, earth shattering event managed to go TOTALLY UNNOTICED in History, for I cant find it in any of my history books, nor on any website detailing the world History form that time period such as this one:
... Surely something as monumental as God Being Seen Riding A Cherub through the clouds, shooting arrows, causing the heavens and earth and sea be laid bare while He lit fires with His breath would have been recorded in ALL the history books, no?

Josephus recorded some rather bizarre signs back in the 1st century:

Matthew 24, Mark 13 and Luke's Temple/Jerusalem Discourses harmonized- Poll Thread

Luke 21:11
And great earthquakes will be in divers places, and famines and pestilences, and fearful sights and great signs will there be from heaven.

This denotes the famine occurring during the 70ad Roman siege of Jerusalem

Revelation 6:6
And I hear a voice in midst of the four living-ones saying: "a measure of grain/wheat a denari and three measures of barleys a denari, and the oil and the wine no you should be injuring"."

The Destruction of Jerusalem - George Peter Holford, 1805AD
An Absolute and Irresistible PROOF OF THE DIVINE ORIGIN OF CHRISTIANITY: INCLUDING A NARRATIVE OF THE CALAMITIES WHICH BEFEL THE JEWS

History records few events more generally interesting than the destruction of Jerusalem, and the subversion of the Jewish state, by the arms of the Romans. -- Their intimate connexion with the dissolution of the Levitical economy, and the establishment of Christianity in the world.....

Our Lord adds "pestilences" likewise. Pestilence treads upon the heels of famine, it may therefore reasonably be presumed, that this terrible scourge accompanied the famines which have just been enumerated. History, however, particularly distinguishes two instances of this calamity, which occurred before the commencement of the Jewish war.
The first took place at Babylon about A. D. 40, and raged so alarmingly, that great multitudes of Jews fled from that city to Seleucia for safety, as hath been hinted already.
The other happened at Rome A.D. 65, and carried off prodigious multitudes. Both Tacitus and Suetonius also record, that similar calamities prevailed, during this period, in various parts of the Roman empire.

After Jerusalem was surrounded by the army of Titus, pestilential diseases soon made their appearance there to aggravate the miseries, and deepen the horrors of the siege.
They were partly occasioned by the immense multitudes which were crowded together in the city, partly by the putrid effluvia which arose from the unburied dead, and partly from spread of famine.

Our Lord proceeded, "And fearful sights and great signs shall there be from heaven." Josephus has collected the chief of these portents together, and introduces his account by a reflection on the strangeness of that infatuation, which could induce his countrymen to give credit to impostors, and unfounded reports, whilst they disregarded the divine admonitions, confirmed, as he asserts they Were, by the following extraordinary signs :

1. "A meteor, resembling a sword, [7] hung over Jerusalem during one whole year."
This could not be a comet, for it was stationary, and was visible for twelve successive months. A sword too, though a fit emblem for destruction, but ill represents a comet.

2. "On the eighth of the month Zanthicus, (before the feast of unleavened bread) at the ninth hour of the night, there shone round about the altar, and the circumjacent buildings of the temple, a light equal to the brightness of the day, which continued for the space of half an hour."
This could not be the effect of lightning, nor of a vivid aurora borealis, for it was confined to a particular spoil and the light shone unintermittedly thirty minutes.

3. "As the High Priest were leading a heifer to the altar to be sacrificed, she brought forth a lamb, in the midst of the temple."
Such is the strange account given by the historian. Some may regard it as a "Grecian fable," while others may think that they discern in this prodigy a miraculous rebuke of Jewish infidelity and impiety, for rejecting the ANTITYPICAL Lamb, who had offered Up Himself as an atonement, "once for all," and who, by thus completely fulfilling their design, had virtually abrogated the Levitical sacrifices. However this may be, the circumstances of the prodigy are remarkable. It did not occur in an obscure part of the city, but in the temple ; not at an ordinary time, but at the passover, the season of our LORD'S crucifixion in the presence, not of the vulgar merely, but of the High Priests and their attendants, and when they were leading the sacrifice to the altar.

4. "' About the sixth hour of the night, the eastern gate of the temple was seen to open without human assistance."
When the guards informed the Curator of this event, he sent men to assist them in shutting it, who with great difficulty succeeded. -- This gate, as hath been observed already, 'Was of solid brass, and required twenty men to close it every evening. It could not have been opened by a "strong gust of wind," or a slight earthquake;" for Josephus says, it was secured by iron bolts And bars, which were let down into a large threshold; consisting of one entire stone." [8]

5. "Soon after the feast of the Passover, in various parts of the country, before the Setting of the sun, chariots and armed men were seen in the air, passing round about Jerusalem. "
Neither could this portentous spectacle be occasioned by the aurora borealis, for it occurred before the setting of the sun ; or merely the fancy of a few villagers, gazing at the heavens, for it was seen in various parts of the country.

6. "At the subsequent feast of Pentecost, while the priests were going, by night, into the inner, temple to perform their customary ministrations, they first felt, as they said, a shaking, accompanied by an indistinct murmuring, and afterwards voices as of a multitude, saying, in a distinct and earnest manner, "LET US DEPART HENCE."
This gradation will remind the reader of that awful transaction, which the feast of Pentecost *as principally instituted to commemorate. First, a shaking was heard ; this would naturally induce the priests to listen : an unintelligible murmur succeeds; this would more powerfully arrest their attention, and while it was thus awakened arid fixed, they heard, says Josephus, the voices as of a multitude, distinctly pronouncing the words "LET US DEPART HENCE." -- And accordingly, before the period for celebrating this feast returned, the Jewish war had commenced, and in the space of three years afterwards, Jerusalem was surrounded by the Roman army, the temple converted into a citadel, and its sacred courts streaming with the blood of human victims.

7. As the last and most fearful omen, Josephus relates that one Jesus, the son of Ananus, a rustic of the lower class, during the Feast of Tabernacles, suddenly exclaimed in the temple, "A voice from the east a voice from the west -- a voice from the four winds- a voice against Jerusalem and the temple -- a voice against bridegrooms and brides -- a voice against the whole people !"
These words he incessantly proclaimed aloud both day and night, through all the streets of Jerusalem, for seven years and five months together, commencing at a time (A. D. 62) when the city was in a state of peace, and overflowing with prosperity, and terminating amidst the horrors of the siege. This disturber, having excited the attention of the magistracy, was brought before Albinus the Roman governor, who commanded that he should be scourged. But the severest stripes drew from him neither tears nor supplications. As he never thanked those who relieved, so neither did he complain of the injustice of those who struck him. And no other answer could the governor obtain to his interrogatories, but his usual denunciation of "Woe, woe to Jerusalem !" which he still continued to proclaim through the city, but especially during the festivals, when his manner became more earnest, and the tone of his voice louder. At length, on the commencement of the siege, he ascended the walls, and, in a more powerful voice than ever, exclaimed, "Woe, woe to this city, this temple, and this people !" And then, with a presentment of his own death, added," Woe, woe to myself "' he had scarcely uttered these words when a stone from one of the Roman engines killed him on the spot.

Such are the prodigies related by Josephus, and which, excepting the first, he places in the Year immediately preceding the Jewish war. Several of them are recorded also by Tacitus. Nevertheless, it ought to be observed, -that they are received by Christian writers cautiously, and with various degrees of credit. Those, however, who are most skeptical, and who resolve them into natural causes, allow the "superintendence of GOD to awaken his people by some of these means." Whatever the fact, in this respect, may be, it is clear that they correspond to our LORD'S prediction of "fearful sights, and great signs from heaven;" and ought to be deemed a sufficient answer to the objector, who demands whether any such appearances are respectably recorded.

The next prediction of our LORD related to the persecutions of his disciples : "They shall lay their hands on you (said he), and persecute you, delivering you up to the synagogues and into prisons, being brought before kings and rulers for my name's sake :" Luke xxi. 12.

parousia70 · Aug 6, 2019

kcnalp said:
Sit back and watch God fight for Israel. It's gonna be great!

God NEVER fights FOR people who reject Him.

jgr · Aug 6, 2019

kcnalp said:
Sit back and watch God fight for Israel.

Are you saying that this is who God fights for?

1 John 2
22 Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.
23 Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also.

LittleLambofJesus · Aug 6, 2019

jgr said:
Are you saying that this is who God fights for?
1 John 2
22 Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.
23 Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also.

Famous last words:

John 19:
11 Jesus answered, “You could have no power at all against Me unless it had been given you from above.
Therefore the one who delivered Me to you has the greater sin.”
12 From then on Pilate sought to release Him, but the Jews cried out, saying, “If you let this Man go, you are not Caesar's friend. Whoever makes himself a king speaks against Caesar.”
15 Those yet cry-out "take-away! take-away! crucify Him!".
Pilate Is saying to them "the King of ye I shall be crucifying!?".
The Chief-priests answered "not we are having a King except Caesar"

I appeal to Caesar! Acts 25:11

Acts 25:11
For if I be an offender, or have committed any thing worthy of death, I refuse not to die. But if there be none of these things whereof these accuse me, no man may deliver me unto them.
I appeal unto Caesar.

LittleLambofJesus said:
Why would Paul appeal to Caesar?

wayseer said:
Transport - Paul wanted to go to Spain, getting to Rome via a free boarding pass was like taking the redeye flight and with personal attendants. We forget how dangerous foot travel was in those days.

Matthew 23:33
"Serpents! brood of vipers! how? ye may be fleeing from the judging<2920> of the Gehenna <1067>

1st century 70ad Jerusalem symbolizing "Gehenna" "Lake of Fire"?

Revelation 14:11
And the Smoke of the tormenting of Them is ascending into Ages to-Ages..........

The Righterzpen · Aug 6, 2019

Nige55 said:
Be careful with that, - this fallacy is used by holocaust deniers. It actually refers to the census of Jews at the time, and naturally became a worst case scenario for the Jews, sensing growing contempt and danger.
The actual figures were very close indeed as such a high percentage of Jews in key regions of Nazi populated were killed (in the case of Poland, it was around 91%).
The figures of 1 million are crazy, Even I know someone who's great grandfather was responsible for roughly 1/3 million deaths of the mentally ill in Germany, and this was a small contribution in the overall figures for the mentally ill.
Be careful using such clumsy, hamfisted assumptions.

Please explain this than:

The "6 million" number is actually out of the Talmud. According to the beliefs of the Talmud, 6 million had to be "offered as a burnt offering" (thus the gas chamber / cremation story) before the Jews could reenter the land. And 6 million have been "holocaust"(ed) since.... before WWI?

Actually this statistic goes back into the late 1800's.

Starting in the 1880's and pretty much running through to the Bolshevik Revolution, Britain and the US were constantly being fed information through the presses as to how life in Russia was so horrendous for the Jews. (New York Times, London Times & Jewish World - The Jewish World being the paper that furnished most of these stories.)

The first stories began "rolling off the presses" from an "on location" journalist who was allegedly traveling all over Russia and witnessing these horrendous acts first hand. There were many accounts of riots, destruction of property murders of Jews and especially accusations of mass rape being printed in American and British newspapers. All of this was couched in language of "act now", "save Russian Jewelry before it's too late", "there's a holocaust going on", "millions are starving" etc.

This instigated the people in Britain to start petitioning their government to intervene. Being slow to want to get involved though, the British government first launched an investigation into these stories when they began to surface in the 1880's. The British consulate sent several independent investigators; all of whom reported back to the crown; that outside of some incidents of property damage, minor injuries to a small number of people and a few who'd succumbed to death as a result of injuries from isolated rioting; there were no mass murders, (matter of fact there weren't actually any murders) no one was starving to death and certainly no mass rapes. At least 3 independent investigators (Consul-General Stanley, Consul-General Law and Colonel Francis Maude) compiled information from their findings and published "Blue Book" in 1884.

When this information hit the public, the London Times responded in a subversive and rather bizarre manner, stating that the indignation of the country is still justified even if the atrocities were "creations of popular fancy".

This I imagine was rather confusing for the people and aggravating for the consulate. Stanley had demanded an answer from the Russo-Jewish Committee / London Times regarding their continued printing of these now debunked stories; especially since he personally had put a lot of his own resources into the investigations to ensure that they were accurate. To this the RJC responded by appealing directly to "the wise and noble people of England," who "will know what weight should be attached to such denials and refutations." So though the RJC did end up winning the sway on popular opinion, they never did convince the British government to intervene.

So in this propaganda war that had already been waging for 10 years against the Romanov dynasty, the Russian papers began to roll out their own versions of things; setting some "historical context" to the alleged "raging anti-semitism" in Czarist Russia. (You really want anti-Semitism, we'll give people a reason to hate you.)

So thus also the reason European powers did not respond to the alleged "Kishinev pogroms", seeing how they'd already been burned by the Jewish press in the 1880's. Keep this in mind too as we get into the 1930's and WWII, with the question so often raised today of European powers' failure to respond to what was allegedly happening in Germany's concentration camps.

LittleLambofJesus · Aug 6, 2019

The Righterzpen said:
Please explain this than:

Interesting.
Is there a way to find out how many Jews were around in the 1st century compared to the 1900s?

Also, how many Jews were killed during the 7-8 yrs Jewish wars in Israel [according to Josephus, over 1 million were killed in Jerusalem/Judea alone]

Matt 24:6..The Jewish Wars in 1st century...Up to 70ad and Masada

Visual Timeline of the Roman-Jewish War ARTchive @ PreteristArchive.com, The Internet's Only Balanced Look at Preterist Eschatology and Preterism
"..probably the greatest single slaughter in ancient history."
ROMAN SIEGE AND SACK OF JERUSALEM

Jeremiah 19:6
“therefore behold, the days are coming,” says the LORD, “that this place shall no more be called Tophet or the Valley of the Son of Hinnom, but the Valley of Slaughter.
Isaiah 30:25
There will be on every high mountain And on every high hill Rivers and streams of waters,
In the day of the great slaughter, when the towers fall.

The Destruction of Jerusalem - George Peter Holford, 1805AD

Before their final demolition, however, Titus took, a. survey of the city and its fortifications ; and, while contemplating their impregnable strength, could not help ascribing his success to the peculiar interposition of the ALMIGHTY HIMSELF. "Had not God himself (exclaimed he) aided out operations, and driven the Jews from their fortresses, it would have been absolutely impossible to have taken them ; for what could men, and the force of engines, have done against such towers as these ?"
After this he commanded that the city should be commanded razed to its foundations, excepting only the three lofty towers Hippocos, Phasael, and Mariamne, which he suffered to remain as evidences of its strength, and as trophies of his victory.
There was left standing, also, a small part of the western wall; as a rampart for a garrison, to keep the surrounding country in subjection.
Titus now gave orders that those Jews only who resisted should be slain ; but the soldiers, equally void of pity and remorse, slew even the sick and the aged.
The robbers and seditious were all punished with death : the tallest and most beautiful youths, together with several of the Jewish nobles were reserved by Titus to grace his triumphal entry into Rome.
After this selection, all above the age of seventeen were sent in chains into Egypt, to be employed there as slaves, or distributed throughout the empire to be sacrificed as gladiators in the amphitheatres ; whilst those who were under this age, were exposed to sale.

During the time that these things were transacted, eleven thousand Jews, guarded by one of the generals, named Fronto, were literally starved to death. This melancholy occurrence happened partly through the scarcity of provisions, and partly through their own obstinacy, and the negligence of the Romans.

Of the Jews destroyed during the siege, Josephus reckons not less than ONE MILLION AND ONE HUNDRED THOUSAND, to which must be added, above TWO-HUNDRED AND THIRTY-SEVEN THOUSAND who perished in other places, and innumerable multitudes who were swept away by famine, and pestilence, and of which no calculation could be made. Not less than two thousand laid violent hands upon themselves. Of the captives the whole was about NINETY-SEVEN THOUSAND. Of the Two great leaders of the Jews, who had both been made prisoners, John was doomed to a dungeon for life ; while Simon, together with John, in triumph at Rome was scourged, and put to death as a malefactor.
=========================

The Righterzpen · Aug 6, 2019

LittleLambofJesus said:
Interesting.
Is there a way to find out how many Jews were around in the 1st century compared to the 1900s?

Also, how many Jews were killed during the 7-8 yrs Jewish wars in Israel [according to Josephus, over 1 million were killed in Jerusalem/Judea alone]

Matt 24:6..The Jewish Wars in 1st century...Up to 70ad and Masada

Visual Timeline of the Roman-Jewish War ARTchive @ PreteristArchive.com, The Internet's Only Balanced Look at Preterist Eschatology and Preterism
"..probably the greatest single slaughter in ancient history."
ROMAN SIEGE AND SACK OF JERUSALEM

Jeremiah 19:6
“therefore behold, the days are coming,” says the LORD, “that this place shall no more be called Tophet or the Valley of the Son of Hinnom, but the Valley of Slaughter.
Isaiah 30:25
There will be on every high mountain And on every high hill Rivers and streams of waters,
In the day of the great slaughter, when the towers fall.

The Destruction of Jerusalem - George Peter Holford, 1805AD

Before their final demolition, however, Titus took, a. survey of the city and its fortifications ; and, while contemplating their impregnable strength, could not help ascribing his success to the peculiar interposition of the ALMIGHTY HIMSELF. "Had not God himself (exclaimed he) aided out operations, and driven the Jews from their fortresses, it would have been absolutely impossible to have taken them ; for what could men, and the force of engines, have done against such towers as these ?"
After this he commanded that the city should be commanded razed to its foundations, excepting only the three lofty towers Hippocos, Phasael, and Mariamne, which he suffered to remain as evidences of its strength, and as trophies of his victory.
There was left standing, also, a small part of the western wall; as a rampart for a garrison, to keep the surrounding country in subjection.
Titus now gave orders that those Jews only who resisted should be slain ; but the soldiers, equally void of pity and remorse, slew even the sick and the aged.
The robbers and seditious were all punished with death : the tallest and most beautiful youths, together with several of the Jewish nobles were reserved by Titus to grace his triumphal entry into Rome.
After this selection, all above the age of seventeen were sent in chains into Egypt, to be employed there as slaves, or distributed throughout the empire to be sacrificed as gladiators in the amphitheatres ; whilst those who were under this age, were exposed to sale.

During the time that these things were transacted, eleven thousand Jews, guarded by one of the generals, named Fronto, were literally starved to death. This melancholy occurrence happened partly through the scarcity of provisions, and partly through their own obstinacy, and the negligence of the Romans.

Of the Jews destroyed during the siege, Josephus reckons not less than ONE MILLION AND ONE HUNDRED THOUSAND, to which must be added, above TWO-HUNDRED AND THIRTY-SEVEN THOUSAND who perished in other places, and innumerable multitudes who were swept away by famine, and pestilence, and of which no calculation could be made. Not less than two thousand laid violent hands upon themselves. Of the captives the whole was about NINETY-SEVEN THOUSAND. Of the Two great leaders of the Jews, who had both been made prisoners, John was doomed to a dungeon for life ; while Simon, together with John, in triumph at Rome was scourged, and put to death as a malefactor.
=========================

Well, I'm not sure numbers from the first century (or any century for that matter) are relevant in regards to the Scriptures. The Scripture never states "X amount have to die before Y happens". That's a Talmudic teaching and the Talmud is not Scripture and was written post 1st century.

As far as numbers actually killed during WWII; that's easy to determine based on pre-war / post-war census numbers. And those per Jews don't even hit the millions. I think the total death tole in German camps maxes out at about 250,000. and I believe that's everyone, not just Jews.

Now "X number of people" disappear from "geographic location Y" alleged to be killed, yet "X number of people" show up at "new geographic location Z"? Well, "X number of people" didn't really die than did they?

Nige55 · Aug 7, 2019

The Righterzpen said:
Please explain this than:

The "6 million" number is actually out of the Talmud. According to the beliefs of the Talmud, 6 million had to be "offered as a burnt offering" (thus the gas chamber / cremation story) before the Jews could reenter the land. And 6 million have been "holocaust"(ed) since.... before WWI?

Actually this statistic goes back into the late 1800's.

Starting in the 1880's and pretty much running through to the Bolshevik Revolution, Britain and the US were constantly being fed information through the presses as to how life in Russia was so horrendous for the Jews. (New York Times, London Times & Jewish World - The Jewish World being the paper that furnished most of these stories.)

The first stories began "rolling off the presses" from an "on location" journalist who was allegedly traveling all over Russia and witnessing these horrendous acts first hand. There were many accounts of riots, destruction of property murders of Jews and especially accusations of mass rape being printed in American and British newspapers. All of this was couched in language of "act now", "save Russian Jewelry before it's too late", "there's a holocaust going on", "millions are starving" etc.

This instigated the people in Britain to start petitioning their government to intervene. Being slow to want to get involved though, the British government first launched an investigation into these stories when they began to surface in the 1880's. The British consulate sent several independent investigators; all of whom reported back to the crown; that outside of some incidents of property damage, minor injuries to a small number of people and a few who'd succumbed to death as a result of injuries from isolated rioting; there were no mass murders, (matter of fact there weren't actually any murders) no one was starving to death and certainly no mass rapes. At least 3 independent investigators (Consul-General Stanley, Consul-General Law and Colonel Francis Maude) compiled information from their findings and published "Blue Book" in 1884.

When this information hit the public, the London Times responded in a subversive and rather bizarre manner, stating that the indignation of the country is still justified even if the atrocities were "creations of popular fancy".

This I imagine was rather confusing for the people and aggravating for the consulate. Stanley had demanded an answer from the Russo-Jewish Committee / London Times regarding their continued printing of these now debunked stories; especially since he personally had put a lot of his own resources into the investigations to ensure that they were accurate. To this the RJC responded by appealing directly to "the wise and noble people of England," who "will know what weight should be attached to such denials and refutations." So though the RJC did end up winning the sway on popular opinion, they never did convince the British government to intervene.

So in this propaganda war that had already been waging for 10 years against the Romanov dynasty, the Russian papers began to roll out their own versions of things; setting some "historical context" to the alleged "raging anti-semitism" in Czarist Russia. (You really want anti-Semitism, we'll give people a reason to hate you.)

So thus also the reason European powers did not respond to the alleged "Kishinev pogroms", seeing how they'd already been burned by the Jewish press in the 1880's. Keep this in mind too as we get into the 1930's and WWII, with the question so often raised today of European powers' failure to respond to what was allegedly happening in Germany's concentration camps.

Have you actually watched the video in the link you provided ?

Nige55 · Aug 7, 2019

The Righterzpen said:
Well, I'm not sure numbers from the first century (or any century for that matter) are relevant in regards to the Scriptures. The Scripture never states "X amount have to die before Y happens". That's a Talmudic teaching and the Talmud is not Scripture and was written post 1st century.

As far as numbers actually killed during WWII; that's easy to determine based on pre-war / post-war census numbers. And those per Jews don't even hit the millions. I think the total death tole in German camps maxes out at about 250,000. and I believe that's everyone, not just Jews.

Now "X number of people" disappear from "geographic location Y" alleged to be killed, yet "X number of people" show up at "new geographic location Z"? Well, "X number of people" didn't really die than did they?

You do realise that many, many many people were killed during WW2 outside of the concentration camps ? And, that there were concentration camps outside of Germany ?
My family going back to WW2 times were from Lithuania, where vast numbers of towns, cities were wiped out, the majority of them being Jews. Even the numbers from Lithuania alone go a fair way towards the numbers stated.
Oh, and for the record, think about it - pre war census was inaccurate, why ? - because large numbers of Jews were not registered as they feared for their lives with the impending threat and danger.

When you say 'you think' the number totals 250,000, where are you getting this from ? As mentioned earlier, a dears friends' Great grandfather was responsible for killing that number alone in a small number of mental institutions. I'm not sure if you've done much first hand research, but I lived in Germany for a decade, I speak fluent German, and I can tell you that the German accounts back up the consensus of statistics.

The Righterzpen · Aug 7, 2019

Nige55 said:
Have you actually watched the video in the link you provided ?

Yes, of course I've watched the video. How many times do you really think "6 million" Jews have died?

Nige55 said:
You do realise that many, many many people were killed during WW2 outside of the concentration camps ? And, that there were concentration camps outside of Germany ?

If we add up all the guesstimated numbers from all the countries in WWII, we have an estimated 3 to 5% of the human race was killed between 1939 and 1945. WWII was the largest loss of human life in history. Some nations (like China and the Soviet Union), we aren't even sure how many people died.

Nige55 said:
My family going back to WW2 times were from Lithuania, where vast numbers of towns, cities were wiped out, the majority of them being Jews. Even the numbers from Lithuania alone go a fair way towards the numbers stated.

There was a mass migration of people from the east going west to get away from the Soviet army at the end of the war. So "vast numbers of people" who disappeared from cities and towns were not necessarily killed. Jews only make up for about 3% of the world's population. That was true in 1930 and is still true today. (So, consequently - they all weren't Jews!)

Nige55 said:
Oh, and for the record, think about it - pre war census was inaccurate, why ? - because large numbers of Jews were not registered as they feared for their lives with the impending threat and danger.

This is not true. Hitler came to power in 1933 and one of the first legislative acts passed in the Reich was the Transfer Agreement. (Look it up!) The Transfer Agreement stated that if you were a Jew in Germany, you could exchange your property in Germany for property in Palestine and leave Germany. Many did, which obviously caused conflict in the Middle East with the Arab / Palestinian population. Jews were attempting to come to the US and were turned back to Europe.

There is an estimated 150,000. soldiers of Jewish lineage that fought in the German army during WWII. I watched a YouTube video once of a Jew who was in the Waffen SS.

The person who put this video together is not a historical revisionist, but he makes some very valid points regardless.

Nige55 said:
When you say 'you think' the number totals 250,000, where are you getting this from ?

This number comes from both the Red Cross and German records themselves.

Nige55 said:
As mentioned earlier, a dears friends' Great grandfather was responsible for killing that number alone in a small number of mental institutions.

The Germans did euthanize the severely mentally ill and the institutionalized developmentally disabled. The numbers of which I'd have to look up. (Keep in mind too that institutional care is particularly vulnerable to communal outbreaks such as mumps, measles, influenza, polio and typhus. There was not a universal vaccination program in the 1920's and 30's. These diseases were common in that era. So many of these institutional deaths were caused by disease.

Typhus was a huge problem by the end of the war. Typhus is a "wasting disease" which is carried by lice. This is why at the end of the war you see all these photos of emaciated people. Both allied doctors (who dug up and autopsied corpses at the end of the war concluded all these people died of disease (primarily Typhus) and that no one was "gassed". The Red Cross had also previously concluded that.

Now (as morbid as this sounds); here's how you tell the difference between emaciation caused by starvation and emaciation caused by disease. Compare photos of concentration camp survivors at the end of the war and African famine victims. You will notice 2 differences.

1. Starvation victims have little spindly arms and legs and often boated abdomens.

(American children 1930's)

Victims_of_the_Madras_Famine_by_WW_Hooper,_1877.png

(famine in India 1877)

2. Although some concentration camp survivors were certainly suffering from malnutrition by the end of the war; that was not true for all (even most). Look at these people. They have fat on their arms and legs and (some) emaciated torsos without boated abdomens. Most of the photos of emaciated concentration camp survivors we see from the end of the war, were taken of from people in the infirmaries.

(Children at liberation - I believe this is Auschwitz? Note fat content on hands and faces - these kids are not starving to death.)

Buchenwald at the end of the war. Note, though these people are thin, they still have body fat on their arms and legs. A few apparently had feet injuries or amputations. Note there are crutches in the picture. I thought the Germans just automatically put to death anyone who was disabled?

The Germans and Soviets had major Typhus outbreaks and the camps used Zyclon B to attempt to control lice. There are fumigation chambers in German concentration camps. If you visit a camp today, you can find them. The "tours" will not take you to them; but you can find these buildings, many of them are still standing. Telltale sign of a fumigation chamber; it has blue / purple staining on the bricks. This is from the oxidation of the Zyclon B. It leaves a permanent residue on the walls of the chamber. In order to vaporize Zyclon B, you need certain environmental factors. It has to be over a certain temperature and under a certain humidity. The chamber has to be sealed. Which requires a heating duct system blowers and sealable doors. (Note the metal doors.)

Dachau fumigation chamber with blower device outside of door.

Prisoners in Auschwitz during the war - removing clothing from a fumigation chamber.

External wall of delousing chamber. (I don't know what camp this is; but it shows Zyclon B residue on the wall.

Zyclon B was also used to delouse people.

fumigation200-dba3989d3e3d6d602b6c6eb42ad0f943aa67d929-s800-c85.jpg

American / Mexican boarder 1917

Ellis Island 1917

By the the time WWII came along; the US and British had Deet, which is a far more effective insecticide and thus western allies did not have the issues with Typhus the Germans and Soviets had.

Euthanasia:

I don't know what the stats of the percent of non functionally / in need of institutional care mentally ill are; but the average percent of developmentally disabled in any population is also about 3%. So no, the Germans did not murder "millions of disabled Jews" either.

In the US today, 14% of public school students receive special education services. 35% of special education students have a specific learning disability such as dyslexia.
The next largest percent of special education students (21%) are classified as "speech and language impairment".
13% are "other health impaired" (diabetes, and epilepsy make up the vast majority)
8% are "autism"
7% are "intellectual disability"
6% are "developmental delay"
5% are "emotional disturbance"
2% are "multiple disabilities"
1% are "hearing impaired"
1% are "orthopedic impairment"

22% of the US population is under 18.

The idea to euthanize the mentally ill and developmentally disabled came from California. It was called the Eugenics movement. It is the philosophy behind the modern abortion industry which primarily targets minority populations in large urban areas.

Developmentally disabled people in the US were institutionalized until the early 1970's when Geraldo Rivera "jumped the fence" of Willowbrook school with cameras rolling and his footage made it onto the 6 o'clock news.

I worked with residents in group homes who came out of this institution. I have a developmentally disabled son who has Autism and epilepsy.

Nige55 said:
I'm not sure if you've done much first hand research, but I lived in Germany for a decade, I speak fluent German, and I can tell you that the German accounts back up the consensus of statistics.

This is a bold face lie! Those who are trying to prove the conventional holocaust narrative have been challenged to find German documentation from the war itself that supports the "millions died in gas chambers" narrative. They have yet to produce one authentic document in 70 years; that proves there was some organized state run program to execute millions of Jews.

There were prisoners in camps who were executed; yes. The Germans recorded these executions; but no one was gassed. There is no forensic evidence in any of the alleged "gas chambers" of Zyclon B residue. And no one has ever claimed that anyone was gassed in a fumigation chamber!

I have personally been to two concentration camps myself and yes, I'm aware that there were camps in eastern Europe and there were camps in the United States that incarcerated Japanese Americans.

Allied reconnaissance photos of the German camps from the war show no such constant cremations, pits of dead bodies or anything of that nature. The British captured an enigma machine in (I believe it was 1941) and they had every single bit of radio / telegraph and even telephone communication coming out of the German high command from than until the end of the war. No where in any of these communications did the allies show any concern that there were mass executions going on in these camps. The evidence there of, is that they never bombed them!

BABerean2 · Aug 7, 2019

The Righterzpen said:
I have personally been to two concentration camps myself and yes, I'm aware that there were camps in eastern Europe and there were camps in the United States that incarcerated Japanese Americans.

If you go to Belgium and say 5,999,999 Jews died in the holocaust, you could end up in prison like British author David Irving.

It looks like the U.S. is headed in the same direction.

.

The Righterzpen · Aug 7, 2019

BABerean2 said:
If you go to Belgium and say 5,999,999 Jews died in the holocaust, you could end up in prison like British author David Irving.

It looks like the U.S. is headed in the same direction.
.

YEP!

Welcome to the Communist States of America

Nige55 · Aug 8, 2019

The Righterzpen said:
This is a bold face lie! Those who are trying to prove the conventional holocaust narrative have been challenged to find German documentation from the war itself that supports the "millions died in gas chambers" narrative. They have yet to produce one authentic document in 70 years; that proves there was some organized state run program to execute millions of Jews.

There were prisoners in camps who were executed; yes. The Germans recorded these executions; but no one was gassed. There is no forensic evidence in any of the alleged "gas chambers" of Zyclon B residue. And no one has ever claimed that anyone was gassed in a fumigation chamber!

I have personally been to two concentration camps myself and yes, I'm aware that there were camps in eastern Europe and there were camps in the United States that incarcerated Japanese Americans.

Allied reconnaissance photos of the German camps from the war show no such constant cremations, pits of dead bodies or anything of that nature. The British captured an enigma machine in (I believe it was 1941) and they had every single bit of radio / telegraph and even telephone communication coming out of the German high command from than until the end of the war. No where in any of these communications did the allies show any concern that there were mass executions going on in these camps. The evidence there of, is that they never bombed them!

I'll go back to the rest of what you posted as I'm currently at work. However I will address one key, and very important point (I've alluded to it previously) - you, like many deniers focus on the camps and the numbers stated as being from the chambers. I think you'd be hard pressed to find anyone who believes that 6 million were killed IN the gas chambers, and zero people outside of them.
So no, it's not a 'bold faced lie', - you're just projecting.

I'll also state again, I speak fluent German, I have spent a decade living in Germany, and in that time have researched material on WW2 from the Germans themselves. Regarding my close friend and her Great Grandfather - I have heard it directly from her own family, so I think I know the case pretty well (and believe me, it was something very, very painful for the family to face). It wasn't outbreaks or disease that took the number I stated, it was 240/250,000 mentally ill people who were killed, systematically.
Finally (as I have a meeting soon)- I have to address your last sentence. For one, I'm from the UK. The UK, and much of the rest of Europe recognises and regrets the lack of help, and the overlooking/ turning a blind eye it did during the suffering the Jews experienced at that time, including the concentration camps.
Your final sentence - you're claiming that the concentration camps and death chambers were not bombed because there was nothing reported as going on. Could it perhaps be, that they were not bombed, because the allies thought it better not to bomb a camp full of people they were trying to help (and save from death) ??!
Perhaps you really do believe that 'Arbeit macht Frei' for the Jews after all ?

Oh, and BTW, regarding my Lithuanian family, no - they didn't move away to 'their home in Israel'. The graves are all there. All killed by the Nazi's, just like the rest of the towns & villages.

The Righterzpen · Aug 8, 2019

Nige55 said:
you, like many deniers focus on the camps and the numbers stated as being from the chambers. I think you'd be hard pressed to find anyone who believes that 6 million were killed IN the gas chambers, and zero people outside of them.
So no, it's not a 'bold faced lie', - you're just projecting.

Ahh, speaking of "projecting" (and deflecting) here! You go from speaking of "gas chamber deaths" to "non gas chamber deaths"; yet the "gas chamber narrative" is what is stated as causing these 6 million deaths? Is that not correct?

So, were they killed in gas chambers or were they not?

Now, I'm sure you are familiar with the show CSI. Crime cases today rely heavily on evidence; (which they should). Without evidence, can you prove there was a crime committed?

Well, we have the ability to collect evidence to prove one way or another whether or not this gas chamber story is true; seeing how many of these camps are still standing today. So, show me any evidence of gas chambers alleged to kill people that have sufficient amounts of Zyclon B residue in them to have killed people!

Guess what! Someones have already beat you to the punch. This testing has already been done!

And what do you think they found?

The "gas chambers" still standing today in Auschwitz were tested 2 times for Zyclon B residue. Once by an American lab and once by a Polish lab. Both labs found no Zyclon B reside that was in any greater PPM (parts per million) than any other part of the camp tested outside of the fumigation chambers. (i.e. the guard barracks, the prisoner barracks, the Commandant's house, the post office). The PPM residue in the fumigation chambers was obviously significantly higher than any other place in the camp.

Now the test results from these two labs actually became part of evidence presented in a trial in Canada in the 1980's. The person on trial was Ernst Zundel. He was put on trial for disseminating information that the gas chamber narrative was not true. Mr. Zundel's lawyers addressed the accusations against their client via questioning whether or not the narrative was true, not the question of whether or not Mr. Zundel was disseminating information claiming it wasn't. They never denied those charges. Yet his case rested on; if "you" say something happened that didn't happen, the onus is on you to prove that it did. Many "eye witness" came forth to testify of what they allegedly saw (or did). Mr. Zundel's defense countered with: OK, is there forensic evidence that supports your account of the story? Then his team presented the results of the testing that had been done.

Well, the Canadian court shut down the case and came back with the verdict that: one can not question the accuracy of the conventional holocaust narrative. A second trial was scheduled which I believe never took place because the conventional holocaust narrative side could not get any witnesses to testify.

The Leuchter Report Vindicated

So again; I need to see forensic evidence that this actually happened in order for me to believe it!

Nige55 said:
It wasn't outbreaks or disease that took the number I stated, it was 240/250,000 mentally ill people who were killed, systematically.

OK, as concerning these claims; let's take a look at some statistics!

In 1904; the US population was about 84,000,000.
In 1904 census information from the 1900 census, stated that roughly 150,000 people were contained in asylums for the insane.
That is .18% of the US population.

Now granted I am making some statistical assumptions here of comparisons of American to German society 1904 to 1935. I make these comparisons based on German and American societies had similar cultural histories (after all a significant percent of the American population is of German ethnicity). Both societies had the same Western cultural backdrop. The same religious history. The same rate of industrial development. Comparable portions of the population living in cities. Similar linguistic heritage. etc.

So, it's fair to say given this 30 year span, it would not be unreasonable to conclude that Germany would not have a considerably higher percent of their population confined to insane asylums than the US had 30 years earlier.

SO:

In 1935 Germany's population was about 66,000,000.
Now if just like in the US .18% of the German population was contained in asylums (or let's even say .20% for argument's sake). That would be roughly 121,000 to 132,000 people.

So, for this grandfather of your friend to have killed 250,000 mentally ill people in Germany somewhere between 1933 and 1945; he would have had to go to every asylum in Germany and kill every single patient twice over!

One thing I've learned as a veteran; the further you get away from an event, the more prone people are to adopting certain aspects of the event as part of their personal narratives. There was an experiment someone did, where he took out an ad in a nationwide newspaper, stating that he was working on a project to record stories of veterans who stormed the beach at Normandy on D-Day. He got more responses from people who claimed to have stormed the beach at Normandy 70 years after the war was over; than the military record of how many service men actually took part in the event!

LOL

Now do I believe this family you speak of has just happened to adopt this as part of their family's historical narrative?

No, personally I believe you're just making this up!

There was an elderly man in my church who claims he spent the war in the Netherlands "hiding Jews". Well, I got on Ancestry.com one day and looked him up. He spent the last two years of WWII in the merchant marine on a ship that sailed between the Netherlands, Britain, Canada and NYC. He'd just turned 18 or 19 when the war ended. Prior to that he would have been too young to have been in the merchant marine.

His son had told me once that mom's brother "was taken" to Germany and worked in a munitions plant. (Stated that he was not in a concentration camp.) The brother died of Typhus while in Germany.

Side note here: Many Dutch were in favor of Hitler's economic policies, agreed with him rearming Germany and a significant number of Dutch fought with the Germans during the war.

This elderly man married his wife (who he claims was also "hiding Jews") after the war was over and they first came to Canada and then immigrated to the US. He'd stated they were heroes back in the Netherlands. (Question I have; then why'd you leave? He also changed the spelling of his last name when he applied for entrance into Canada.)

Moral of the story: WWII was a lot more complicated than the narrative we've been sold and like is often said: "The winners write the history books."

Nige55 said:
Could it perhaps be, that they were not bombed, because the allies thought it better not to bomb a camp full of people they were trying to help (and save from death) ??!

Think about your answer here. Does it really make sense? :scratch:

Consider:

1941 the British capture an enigma machine. They find out from the German high command "chatter" that there is a mass program to exterminate millions of people in these camps. They've flown reconnaissance and found evidence of this on their photographs. (Playing devil's advocate here; assuming the narrative was true and the allies knew it was going on.) How would NOT bombing the camps help these people?

Nige55 said:
Oh, and BTW, regarding my Lithuanian family, no - they didn't move away to 'their home in Israel'. The graves are all there. All killed by the Nazi's, just like the rest of the towns & villages.

So what you are saying; is if I went to Lithuania and went to the village that your family came from; and say that village had a population of 2500 people in 1939. You're saying that if I look in the village cemetery; I will find 2500 new to (between 1939 and 1945) graves?

And if I walked through all of Lithuania (and Latvia and Poland and Hungary) I would find the same thing?

I watched a documentary on Netflix that was very fascinating. These were American "treasure hunters" (I'll call them for lack of a better term.) They were in Poland going over old WWII battlefields looking for artifacts. Helmets, bullets, gun parts, rocket launcher parts / whatever. They'd get permission from the local authority to dig on these sites so they could sell the artifacts they found.

Well, when ever they'd find bodies; they would take the remains to designated WWII cemeteries where the dead were segregated by nation. (Polish soldiers with the Polish dead, Russians in the Soviet section, Germans in the German section etc.) If they found any identification on these bodies, they would attempt to contact the families and say: "We found so and so's remains, would you like to claim them for burial in a family plot?" Most of the bodies found, just went in these war cemeteries.

Well, in this process they would ask if there were mass graves in the area the local villages wanted them to excavate. Well they were pointed to a few mass graves. They relocated several hundred bodies found in these mass graves. When they started these mass grave excavations; they were shocked. Guess who was in these mass graves?

They were all German civilians!

This is not the program I'd seen; but here is an example:

Nige55 · Aug 9, 2019

The Righterzpen said:
Ahh, speaking of "projecting" (and deflecting) here! You go from speaking of "gas chamber deaths" to "non gas chamber deaths"; yet the "gas chamber narrative" is what is stated as causing these 6 million deaths? Is that not correct?

So, were they killed in gas chambers or were they not?

Now, I'm sure you are familiar with the show CSI. Crime cases today rely heavily on evidence; (which they should). Without evidence, can you prove there was a crime committed?

Well, we have the ability to collect evidence to prove one way or another whether or not this gas chamber story is true; seeing how many of these camps are still standing today. So, show me any evidence of gas chambers alleged to kill people that have sufficient amounts of Zyclon B residue in them to have killed people!

Guess what! Someones have already beat you to the punch. This testing has already been done!

And what do you think they found?

The "gas chambers" still standing today in Auschwitz were tested 2 times for Zyclon B residue. Once by an American lab and once by a Polish lab. Both labs found no Zyclon B reside that was in any greater PPM (parts per million) than any other part of the camp tested outside of the fumigation chambers. (i.e. the guard barracks, the prisoner barracks, the Commandant's house, the post office). The PPM residue in the fumigation chambers was obviously significantly higher than any other place in the camp.

Now the test results from these two labs actually became part of evidence presented in a trial in Canada in the 1980's. The person on trial was Ernst Zundel. He was put on trial for disseminating information that the gas chamber narrative was not true. Mr. Zundel's lawyers addressed the accusations against their client via questioning whether or not the narrative was true, not the question of whether or not Mr. Zundel was disseminating information claiming it wasn't. They never denied those charges. Yet his case rested on; if "you" say something happened that didn't happen, the onus is on you to prove that it did. Many "eye witness" came forth to testify of what they allegedly saw (or did). Mr. Zundel's defense countered with: OK, is there forensic evidence that supports your account of the story? Then his team presented the results of the testing that had been done.

Well, the Canadian court shut down the case and came back with the verdict that: one can not question the accuracy of the conventional holocaust narrative. A second trial was scheduled which I believe never took place because the conventional holocaust narrative side could not get any witnesses to testify.

The Leuchter Report Vindicated

So again; I need to see forensic evidence that this actually happened in order for me to believe it!

OK, as concerning these claims; let's take a look at some statistics!

In 1904; the US population was about 84,000,000.
In 1904 census information from the 1900 census, stated that roughly 150,000 people were contained in asylums for the insane.
That is .18% of the US population.

Now granted I am making some statistical assumptions here of comparisons of American to German society 1904 to 1935. I make these comparisons based on German and American societies had similar cultural histories (after all a significant percent of the American population is of German ethnicity). Both societies had the same Western cultural backdrop. The same religious history. The same rate of industrial development. Comparable portions of the population living in cities. Similar linguistic heritage. etc.

So, it's fair to say given this 30 year span, it would not be unreasonable to conclude that Germany would not have a considerably higher percent of their population confined to insane asylums than the US had 30 years earlier.

SO:

In 1935 Germany's population was about 66,000,000.
Now if just like in the US .18% of the German population was contained in asylums (or let's even say .20% for argument's sake). That would be roughly 121,000 to 132,000 people.

So, for this grandfather of your friend to have killed 250,000 mentally ill people in Germany somewhere between 1933 and 1945; he would have had to go to every asylum in Germany and kill every single patient twice over!

One thing I've learned as a veteran; the further you get away from an event, the more prone people are to adopting certain aspects of the event as part of their personal narratives. There was an experiment someone did, where he took out an ad in a nationwide newspaper, stating that he was working on a project to record stories of veterans who stormed the beach at Normandy on D-Day. He got more responses from people who claimed to have stormed the beach at Normandy 70 years after the war was over; than the military record of how many service men actually took part in the event!

LOL

Now do I believe this family you speak of has just happened to adopt this as part of their family's historical narrative?

No, personally I believe you're just making this up!

There was an elderly man in my church who claims he spent the war in the Netherlands "hiding Jews". Well, I got on Ancestry.com one day and looked him up. He spent the last two years of WWII in the merchant marine on a ship that sailed between the Netherlands, Britain, Canada and NYC. He'd just turned 18 or 19 when the war ended. Prior to that he would have been too young to have been in the merchant marine.

His son had told me once that mom's brother "was taken" to Germany and worked in a munitions plant. (Stated that he was not in a concentration camp.) The brother died of Typhus while in Germany.

Side note here: Many Dutch were in favor of Hitler's economic policies, agreed with him rearming Germany and a significant number of Dutch fought with the Germans during the war.

This elderly man married his wife (who he claims was also "hiding Jews") after the war was over and they first came to Canada and then immigrated to the US. He'd stated they were heroes back in the Netherlands. (Question I have; then why'd you leave? He also changed the spelling of his last name when he applied for entrance into Canada.)

Moral of the story: WWII was a lot more complicated than the narrative we've been sold and like is often said: "The winners write the history books."

Think about your answer here. Does it really make sense?

Consider:

1941 the British capture an enigma machine. They find out from the German high command "chatter" that there is a mass program to exterminate millions of people in these camps. They've flown reconnaissance and found evidence of this on their photographs. (Playing devil's advocate here; assuming the narrative was true and the allies knew it was going on.) How would NOT bombing the camps help these people?

So what you are saying; is if I went to Lithuania and went to the village that your family came from; and say that village had a population of 2500 people in 1939. You're saying that if I look in the village cemetery; I will find 2500 new to (between 1939 and 1945) graves?

And if I walked through all of Lithuania (and Latvia and Poland and Hungary) I would find the same thing?

I watched a documentary on Netflix that was very fascinating. These were American "treasure hunters" (I'll call them for lack of a better term.) They were in Poland going over old WWII battlefields looking for artifacts. Helmets, bullets, gun parts, rocket launcher parts / whatever. They'd get permission from the local authority to dig on these sites so they could sell the artifacts they found.

Well, when ever they'd find bodies; they would take the remains to designated WWII cemeteries where the dead were segregated by nation. (Polish soldiers with the Polish dead, Russians in the Soviet section, Germans in the German section etc.) If they found any identification on these bodies, they would attempt to contact the families and say: "We found so and so's remains, would you like to claim them for burial in a family plot?" Most of the bodies found, just went in these war cemeteries.

Well, in this process they would ask if there were mass graves in the area the local villages wanted them to excavate. Well they were pointed to a few mass graves. They relocated several hundred bodies found in these mass graves. When they started these mass grave excavations; they were shocked. Guess who was in these mass graves?

They were all German civilians!

This is not the program I'd seen; but here is an example:

Firstly, once again (clearly didn't hit home the first time) - I did not state at any point, that all 6 million deaths were carried out in the gas chambers alone. You will not find any reports or statistics that claim this.
Secondly, you're expecting me to swallow whole these reports of the residue in the gas chambers, - I reserve judgement on these reports, I've read much to the contrary. Not to mention, - if they were not used to kill people - why was the PPM residue high ? What purpose were the chambers used for ?
Thirdly, I really can't respect your position when you reference TV shows (CSI), and Netflix documentaries. You're trying to counter points that even the Germans themselves concede are true. Being an armchair 'researcher' is sadly why much of the youtube generation today have twisted history and lack contextual understanding.
Which leads me on to your clumsy assumptions, using US statistics to guesstimate at averages of another continent, without understanding either context or culture of the country you're creating your own figures for. Not to mention the fact that this was Europe, - people were moved around as it suited the Nazis, from Austria, Eastern Europe. To assume you can work out what really happened from some US figures you've found is absurd.
My friends family - why the hell would either they or I make it up ? It's really not a very funny subject (wherever you believe the truth lies), so your 'LOL' belies any maturity or sensitivity at all.
And the last topic, my Lithuanian family - you respond with 'I watched a Netflix documentary'. Good for you. I've done the family genealogy, research, the family has been there and yes - that is what happened. However, just like Poland, the evidence of the lives lost and the respect for them diminishes. Polish memorials and gravestones get vandalised and lost, the government refuses to keep the memorials to the Jews (or many records), the country is now largely Roman catholic, and doesn't want anything to do with the Jewish lives lost. A similar story in Lithuania, new generations forget the past. Evidence is also hidden across much of Eastern Europe also because they were of course part of the killing.

You're story of the guy at church saving Jewish lives highlights your lack of understanding of knowledge of the topic in your sentence - "(Question I have; then why'd you leave? He also changed the spelling of his last name when he applied for entrance into Canada.)" - Do you really not know why they would leave ? And do you not know why they would change their names ? A huge number did. My family did when they left Eastern Europe (Lithuania, Poland and also Russia) and moved to Scotland.

I'm also well aware of the German civilian lives lost, I've spent years researching that as well, but clearly that of no validity to you, so I'll leave you to your youtube video's, CSI and Netflix. Just remember - not all of what you see online is true

The Righterzpen · Aug 9, 2019

It's quite clear that you are losing ground for your position, seeing how you are digressing into nonsensical arguments that don't even address the issues.

Nige55 said:
Firstly, once again (clearly didn't hit home the first time) - I did not state at any point, that all 6 million deaths were carried out in the gas chambers alone. You will not find any reports or statistics that claim this.

Let me remind you that I am not the one making up the narrative of how they were killed! Does not the main thrust of the conventional holocaust narrative state that the vast majority of these 6 million deaths occurred in gas chambers? That is the claim set forth by the historians who support this narrative - is it not?

That narrative is set forth because the Talmudic teaching that a "burnt offering" (which is what the word "holocaust" means) is "required" for them to enter back into what had once been Judea. This is why they claim 6 million were gassed and subsequently cremated.

Now, not to mention; (but I will) that Germany did not even possess the facilities to cremate 6 million people between 1938 and 1945 anyways. Most concentration camps were actually built just before and during the war.

So again, I present you with the question of: If the majority did not die in gas chambers; how did they die? (That would leave you to invent a second narrative that conventional holocaust historians do not claim.)

Of course now; if you can not see the dilemma your own arguments have created for yourself - I can't help you.

Nige55 said:
Secondly, you're expecting me to swallow whole these reports of the residue in the gas chambers, - I reserve judgement on these reports, I've read much to the contrary. Not to mention, - if they were not used to kill people - why was the PPM residue high ? What purpose were the chambers used for ?

Again, you've flipped and misquoted what was said. The "gas chambers" DO NOT contain any MORE Zyclon B residue than could be found in the rest of the camp. The only exception is the fumigation chambers. (Which is stated that clothing and luggage was fumigated in.)

NO HISTORIAN OF THE CONVENTIONAL HOLOCAUST NARRATIVE CLAIMS HUMANS WERE GASSED IN THESE FUMIGATION CHAMBERS!

So, if no one was gassed in fumigation chambers and the "gas chambers" show no forensic evidence of Zyclon B having been used in them - than - where were these people gassed?

Nige55 said:
Thirdly, I really can't respect your position when you reference TV shows (CSI), and Netflix documentaries.

Again, if you don't have a crime scene; it's a legitimate question to ask if you have a crime?

The same forensic techniques used to solve crimes today are used to answer questions of the past. If they find a mass grave from say 1500; they can use modern forensics to make a good hypothesis of how they died. Do the skulls show evidence of blunt force trauma? Are there arrows or portions of weapons that are "broken off" inside what would have been soft tissue. Is there "cutting evidence" on the bones, indicating that the bodies had been dismembered?

All these forensic techniques they use in investigative archeology, regardless of how old the site is that they've found.

Shows like CSI are popular because they showcase this kind of technology that is in use today for solving crimes and unexplained deaths.

If you are unaware of the reality of this type of technology than; I don't know where you've been living; because it's pretty common knowledge that these techniques exist in modern forensics.

Nige55 said:
You're trying to counter points that even the Germans themselves concede are true.

One of the interesting facts that history has referenced is that very few of the German generation who actually lived through the 1930's will "confess" to the conventional holocaust narrative.

And on top of this - if you come out and state this is not what happened; THEY THROW YOU IN JAIL!

Now, if this conventional narrative was really true; why does it need laws to protect it? Why can it not stand on its own? And if the detractors are so easy to prove wrong, than why has not the forensic evidence been presented?

Now I believed the conventional holocaust narrative until about 4 years ago. I was doing research on the founding of Israel because I knew it was connected to WWII. I was on the Internet when I stumbled across an article written by a holocaust revisionist. When they raised the question of "Where's the forensic evidence that this actually happened?" That caught my attention. So I started researching and studying the subject.

And I came to the conclusion that they were correct. If there is no forensic evidence; to ask if a crime was actually committed is a legitimate question!

Nige55 said:
Being an armchair 'researcher' is sadly why much of the youtube generation today have twisted history and lack contextual understanding.

I'm 48 years old. I'm not "the YouTube generation."

The Internet is the leveler of many things! Praise God it exists. We can all do research and find the truth. "He who answers a matter before he hears it out; it is a folly and a shame unto him." Proverbs 18:13

Always said: Don't believe a word I say - Do your own research!

Nige55 said:
Which leads me on to your clumsy assumptions, using US statistics to guesstimate at averages of another continent, without understanding either context or culture of the country you're creating your own figures for. Not to mention the fact that this was Europe, - people were moved around as it suited the Nazis, from Austria, Eastern Europe. To assume you can work out what really happened from some US figures you've found is absurd.

What I did with those statistics is commonly done in statistical analysis. And if you are unaware of that; maybe you need to go look that up too.

Nige55 said:
My friends family - why the hell would either they or I make it up ?

You tell me; why would you make it up? Would you make it up because your family cooperated with the Germans during the war and now you seek to collect reparations as a "victim"?

The love of money is the root of all sorts of evil.

Nige55 said:
It's really not a very funny subject (wherever you believe the truth lies), so your 'LOL' belies any maturity or sensitivity at all.

Again, you didn't read - LOL - my "LOL" was in regards to the numerous veterans who stated they'd been someplace that obviously not all of them could have been.

How does a researcher wishing to record stories get more responses of alleged veterans who "stormed the beach" than the DOD's records of numbers who were actually present? And this is 70 years after the war ended? Obviously there were people who died during the event and veterans who've died in the 70 years since the event.

So again - LOL - how do you get more respondents claiming to be at an event than people who actually were?

Nige55 said:
And the last topic, my Lithuanian family - you respond with 'I watched a Netflix documentary'. Good for you. I've done the family genealogy, research, the family has been there and yes - that is what happened.

Well, again; what you're saying doesn't make sense. If your whole family and village was barbarically massacred by the Germans during the war; there'd be no genealogical records to look up to "verify" their deaths. If that's what really happened; the best you could conclude is that they are in a mass grave somewhere. Yet the archeological evidence that is surfacing today is that the majority of mass graves they are finding are not full of Jews; but German civilians.

Nige55 said:
However, just like Poland, the evidence of the lives lost and the respect for them diminishes. Polish memorials and gravestones get vandalised and lost, the government refuses to keep the memorials to the Jews (or many records), the country is now largely Roman catholic, and doesn't want anything to do with the Jewish lives lost.

And maybe the evidence that they are finding because it does not support this "massive Jewish lives lost" narrative; is why people are "not remembering".

You are correct that governments in Eastern Europe, the Ukraine and Russia are refusing to keep these "specifically Jewish" war memorials. They are being reframed to general war memorials of casualties lost in WWII period.

Personally, I think that's appropriate. Why are Jews (who are only 3% of the worlds population); more important than Russians, Poles, Ukrainians, Germans or anyone else that all these memorials need to be dedicated to lost Jews? Lives lost are lives lost and WWII killed millions of people from all sorts of ethnic backgrounds.

Oh - P.S. Poland has been predominantly Roman Catholic for centuries!

Nige55 said:
A similar story in Lithuania, new generations forget the past. Evidence is also hidden across much of Eastern Europe also because they were of course part of the killing.

Bingo - yeah; part of the killing! Did you know that the Bolsheviks were mostly atheistic Jews?

Nige55 said:
You're story of the guy at church saving Jewish lives highlights your lack of understanding of knowledge of the topic in your sentence - "(Question I have; then why'd you leave? He also changed the spelling of his last name when he applied for entrance into Canada.)" - Do you really not know why they would leave ? And do you not know why they would change their names ? A huge number did. My family did when they left Eastern Europe (Lithuania, Poland and also Russia) and moved to Scotland.

If you were a hero in your country; why would you leave? If you are a hero in your country; why would you change your name when you emigrate to someplace else?

Your family changed their name when they left Eastern Europe - why; (probably because they cooperated with the Germans - which is usually the reason. And I don't want anyone to find out my family history because they might come after me for war crimes! Whether I committed them or not!)

The winners write the history books and sometimes the "winners" are actually the war criminals!

One of the research projects I also did was looking at census data of Alaskan natives who lived on a certain island up until about the early 1950's.

2 "errors" commonly showed up on the census data from one decade to another in that population who was combination Inuit and Scandinavian ancestry.

There were commonly variations of name spellings. This was because none of these people had more than an elementary education and the census takers would basically guess as to how to spell their sir names. (If you look at the census data from Alaska in the 1920's, 30's, 40's; the ledgers are all filled in by hand.)

This variation though was not noted in people who had more education.

The second most common "error" was birth years. Primarily someone would be 6 years old in 1930, suddenly 18 and 1940 (as pertains to military records) and 26 in 1950. Obvious discrepancy of this "error" is that someone would not have been eligible to join the military at 16 years old; so they lied about their age. That was common in the 1940 census.

So educated immigrants coming from Europe after the war who would "change" the spellings of their names (or change the "nationality" of the name) was an intentional attempt to evade people recognizing their true sir name years later.

Nige55 said:
I'm also well aware of the German civilian lives lost, I've spent years researching that as well, but clearly that of no validity to you, so I'll leave you to your youtube video's, CSI and Netflix. Just remember - not all of what you see online is true

And... now why would you say that German deaths are "no validity" to me, when I'm the one who's pointed out that vast majority of the war era mass graves found in Eastern Europe contain German civilians?

LOL

Just remember, not everything you read in a history book about WWII is true either!

Nige55 · Aug 12, 2019

The Righterzpen said:
It's quite clear that you are losing ground for your position, seeing how you are digressing into nonsensical arguments that don't even address the issues.

Let me remind you that I am not the one making up the narrative of how they were killed! Does not the main thrust of the conventional holocaust narrative state that the vast majority of these 6 million deaths occurred in gas chambers? That is the claim set forth by the historians who support this narrative - is it not?

That narrative is set forth because the Talmudic teaching that a "burnt offering" (which is what the word "holocaust" means) is "required" for them to enter back into what had once been Judea. This is why they claim 6 million were gassed and subsequently cremated.

Now, not to mention; (but I will) that Germany did not even possess the facilities to cremate 6 million people between 1938 and 1945 anyways. Most concentration camps were actually built just before and during the war.

So again, I present you with the question of: If the majority did not die in gas chambers; how did they die? (That would leave you to invent a second narrative that conventional holocaust historians do not claim.)

Of course now; if you can not see the dilemma your own arguments have created for yourself - I can't help you.

Again, you've flipped and misquoted what was said. The "gas chambers" DO NOT contain any MORE Zyclon B residue than could be found in the rest of the camp. The only exception is the fumigation chambers. (Which is stated that clothing and luggage was fumigated in.)

NO HISTORIAN OF THE CONVENTIONAL HOLOCAUST NARRATIVE CLAIMS HUMANS WERE GASSED IN THESE FUMIGATION CHAMBERS!

So, if no one was gassed in fumigation chambers and the "gas chambers" show no forensic evidence of Zyclon B having been used in them - than - where were these people gassed?

Again, if you don't have a crime scene; it's a legitimate question to ask if you have a crime?

The same forensic techniques used to solve crimes today are used to answer questions of the past. If they find a mass grave from say 1500; they can use modern forensics to make a good hypothesis of how they died. Do the skulls show evidence of blunt force trauma? Are there arrows or portions of weapons that are "broken off" inside what would have been soft tissue. Is there "cutting evidence" on the bones, indicating that the bodies had been dismembered?

All these forensic techniques they use in investigative archeology, regardless of how old the site is that they've found.

Shows like CSI are popular because they showcase this kind of technology that is in use today for solving crimes and unexplained deaths.

If you are unaware of the reality of this type of technology than; I don't know where you've been living; because it's pretty common knowledge that these techniques exist in modern forensics.

One of the interesting facts that history has referenced is that very few of the German generation who actually lived through the 1930's will "confess" to the conventional holocaust narrative.

And on top of this - if you come out and state this is not what happened; THEY THROW YOU IN JAIL!

Now, if this conventional narrative was really true; why does it need laws to protect it? Why can it not stand on its own? And if the detractors are so easy to prove wrong, than why has not the forensic evidence been presented?

Now I believed the conventional holocaust narrative until about 4 years ago. I was doing research on the founding of Israel because I knew it was connected to WWII. I was on the Internet when I stumbled across an article written by a holocaust revisionist. When they raised the question of "Where's the forensic evidence that this actually happened?" That caught my attention. So I started researching and studying the subject.

And I came to the conclusion that they were correct. If there is no forensic evidence; to ask if a crime was actually committed is a legitimate question!

I'm 48 years old. I'm not "the YouTube generation."

The Internet is the leveler of many things! Praise God it exists. We can all do research and find the truth. "He who answers a matter before he hears it out; it is a folly and a shame unto him." Proverbs 18:13

Always said: Don't believe a word I say - Do your own research!

What I did with those statistics is commonly done in statistical analysis. And if you are unaware of that; maybe you need to go look that up too.

You tell me; why would you make it up? Would you make it up because your family cooperated with the Germans during the war and now you seek to collect reparations as a "victim"?

The love of money is the root of all sorts of evil.

Again, you didn't read - LOL - my "LOL" was in regards to the numerous veterans who stated they'd been someplace that obviously not all of them could have been.

How does a researcher wishing to record stories get more responses of alleged veterans who "stormed the beach" than the DOD's records of numbers who were actually present? And this is 70 years after the war ended? Obviously there were people who died during the event and veterans who've died in the 70 years since the event.

So again - LOL - how do you get more respondents claiming to be at an event than people who actually were?

Well, again; what you're saying doesn't make sense. If your whole family and village was barbarically massacred by the Germans during the war; there'd be no genealogical records to look up to "verify" their deaths. If that's what really happened; the best you could conclude is that they are in a mass grave somewhere. Yet the archeological evidence that is surfacing today is that the majority of mass graves they are finding are not full of Jews; but German civilians.

And maybe the evidence that they are finding because it does not support this "massive Jewish lives lost" narrative; is why people are "not remembering".

You are correct that governments in Eastern Europe, the Ukraine and Russia are refusing to keep these "specifically Jewish" war memorials. They are being reframed to general war memorials of casualties lost in WWII period.

Personally, I think that's appropriate. Why are Jews (who are only 3% of the worlds population); more important than Russians, Poles, Ukrainians, Germans or anyone else that all these memorials need to be dedicated to lost Jews? Lives lost are lives lost and WWII killed millions of people from all sorts of ethnic backgrounds.

Oh - P.S. Poland has been predominantly Roman Catholic for centuries!

Bingo - yeah; part of the killing! Did you know that the Bolsheviks were mostly atheistic Jews?

If you were a hero in your country; why would you leave? If you are a hero in your country; why would you change your name when you emigrate to someplace else?

Your family changed their name when they left Eastern Europe - why; (probably because they cooperated with the Germans - which is usually the reason. And I don't want anyone to find out my family history because they might come after me for war crimes! Whether I committed them or not!)

The winners write the history books and sometimes the "winners" are actually the war criminals!

One of the research projects I also did was looking at census data of Alaskan natives who lived on a certain island up until about the early 1950's.

2 "errors" commonly showed up on the census data from one decade to another in that population who was combination Inuit and Scandinavian ancestry.

There were commonly variations of name spellings. This was because none of these people had more than an elementary education and the census takers would basically guess as to how to spell their sir names. (If you look at the census data from Alaska in the 1920's, 30's, 40's; the ledgers are all filled in by hand.)

This variation though was not noted in people who had more education.

The second most common "error" was birth years. Primarily someone would be 6 years old in 1930, suddenly 18 and 1940 (as pertains to military records) and 26 in 1950. Obvious discrepancy of this "error" is that someone would not have been eligible to join the military at 16 years old; so they lied about their age. That was common in the 1940 census.

So educated immigrants coming from Europe after the war who would "change" the spellings of their names (or change the "nationality" of the name) was an intentional attempt to evade people recognizing their true sir name years later.

And... now why would you say that German deaths are "no validity" to me, when I'm the one who's pointed out that vast majority of the war era mass graves found in Eastern Europe contain German civilians?

LOL

Just remember, not everything you read in a history book about WWII is true either!

WOW, still struggling to get past the first point ?? Still ? I'll say it again- NO !! -
"Does not the main thrust of the conventional holocaust narrative state that the vast majority of these 6 million deaths occurred in gas chambers? That is the claim set forth by the historians who support this narrative - is it not?
- NO ! NO ! It's not !! If you don't understand that about WW2, then I think you need to start from the beginning ! I've ALREADY stated that you will not find any statements claiming this - it's one of the first things we learn !
"So again, I present you with the question of: If the majority did not die in gas chambers; how did they die? (That would leave you to invent a second narrative that conventional holocaust historians do not claim.)" -
- 'INVENT' ?? - Have you not even read any material on WW2 ? Do you really think that the claim is that the Jews were ONLY killed in the gas chambers ? Dear Lord ! For starters, the killing of the Jews was spread across the following countries - Germany, Austria, Czechoslovakia, Denmark, France, Belgium, Luxemburg, Norway, Holland, Italy, Yugoslavia, Greece, Bulgaria, Romania, Hungary, Poland,
USSR - not all locations of Concentration camps and death camps. I'll let you ponder that one yourself.

Next- "One of the interesting facts that history has referenced is that very few of the German generation who actually lived through the 1930's will "confess" to the conventional holocaust narrative." - Why do you think that is ? I'll give you a hint, even the Jews were convinced that they were valued, - as labour. I have personally spoken to Germans who have lived through it, - most have a hard time considering what was done to the Germans themselves, they can barely face the guilt of what the Jews (and others) faced). Most of them didn't actually know the full extent, many buried their heads in the sand. I can still see families I know struggle with it now.

Next- "And I came to the conclusion that they were correct. If there is no forensic evidence; to ask if a crime was actually committed is a legitimate question!" -
-Dead bodies are usually a good starting point as evidence. I'm sure they have them on CSI too :doh:

"I'm 48 years old. I'm not "the YouTube generation."" - Oh yes you are. I'm just a few years younger, and I definitely am, as are most of a similar age.

"What I did with those statistics is commonly done in statistical analysis. And if you are unaware of that; maybe you need to go look that up too." -
- In order for statistical analysis to be reliable, sound evidence - the people collecting and processing the data need to factor in contextual factors, and not go by sweeping assumptions. Exactly as you have done. Instead of having had the humility to ask more, - you jump to assumptions and make your conclusions from incomplete evidence. Case in point - I stated that my Friends Great Grandfather had killed approx. 240,000 mentally ill people across Germany. You assumed that these people were simply the people actually in mental institutions in Germany at that time. It's very surface analysis.

"Well, again; what you're saying doesn't make sense. If your whole family and village was barbarically massacred by the Germans during the war; there'd be no genealogical records to look up to "verify" their deaths. If that's what really happened; the best you could conclude is that they are in a mass grave somewhere. Yet the archeological evidence that is surfacing today is that the majority of mass graves they are finding are not full of Jews; but German civilians."

OK, how so ? Why woukld you conclude that ? Why would there be no records ? (By the way, 'whole' doesn't mean 100% ;-) ).
The last sentence of that - you're not seriously suggesting that the bodies being found across Europe and Eastern Europe are not actually the bodies of the people that lived there, but instead the bodies of Germans who were, presumably - transported there ?? And you got this from a Netflix 'documentary' ?

"Your family changed their name when they left Eastern Europe - why; (probably because they cooperated with the Germans - which is usually the reason. And I don't want anyone to find out my family history because they might come after me for war crimes! Whether I committed them or not!)
The winners write the history books and sometimes the "winners" are actually the war criminals!"

And here we go, the conspiracy narrative. 'They cooperated with the Germans!!' "It's usually the reason"! - A flimsy, whimsical statement. I'll help you out here - (it's much simpler that you'd think) - names were very often changed for 2 reasons,
1). Good old basic linguistics. Upon arriving, they were asked their names, which were written and recorded by English speakers - they would write then name as they heard it, or often changed it to a simplified or anglicised form of the name. This was then extend further in work & employment, especially given the numbers arriving of people who's names no one could say of spell.
You're example of Alaskan natives is similar in concept, however in the case of post WW2, education doesn't trump linguistic leaps.
This was certainly the case of many/ most of those arriving in Scotland for example.
2). To give their families the best chance possible. To give their kids a break from the ties of WW2 connections, to give them a more level playing field. I know many Korean families in Japan who took the same approach. In many cases, it's was also an emotional clean slate, as still to this day, many Jews struggle to face the horrors that they survived, but their families didn't.
Sure, there will have been some who took this route for the reasons you stated, but it's pretty audacious to level that at my family when you know zero about them, and I have substantial research.

The 'winners' in WW2 were not the Jews, they were the survivors. They were in no position to pressure, coerce or force the Nazis on trial into claiming responsibility for crimes they did not commit.
Some of those on trial over the decades not only claimed responsibility for the atrocities, but wish they had carried out more. Alois Brunner is a clear example of this, he wished he had murdered more Jews !
Your conclusions have the daunting task of facing the thousands of documents & records collected and compiled by the IMT, with input from 23 different countries. I'm not sure I'd bank on CSI and Netflix to counter that research, but that's just me.

Douggg · Aug 12, 2019

LittleLambofJesus said:
God fights for those who are of the Faith of Jesus and of the NC New Jerusalem Saints.
”

Here is what I think you need to look at...

Ezekiel 39:7 So will I make my holy name known in the midst of my people Israel; and I will not let them pollute my holy name any more: and the heathen shall know that I am the LORD, the Holy One in Israel.

What does that verse actually mean?

It is necessary to go to Ezekiel 36:19, start reading from there. Verse 20 starts talking about God's Holy Name being profaned.

God had scattered the house of Israel among the heathen. But the heathen looking at Israel's plight of being taken out of their land - had the effect of profaning God's name, in that it appears that God couldn't save them from their enemies. God's name was profaned "in Israel" (in what happened to them)

As you read down through the verses, much of what is said is actually repeated in Ezekiel 39:21-29 as Jesus Himself is speaking having returned to earth, following Armageddon in Ezekiel 39:17-20, which in turn follows the 7 years following the destruction of Gog's army.

In Ezekiel 39:7, the house of Israel are still not Christians at that time. But God will have defended Israel, because He sanctifies his Holy Name by defending them.

"and the heathen shall know that I am the Lord, the Holy One in Israel" does not mean God physically present in Israel that day, but the Holy One, because of what He does in defending Israel. The heathen will see God's Holy Name sanctified because He defends Israel.

It is similar, but not exactly, to us saying were are righteous "in Christ". Which we are not physically in Christ. But we are righteous because of what Jesus did for us.

Everyone should be watching developments in Israel

Hebrews 2:14.... Pesky Devil, git!

Livin' in yesterday's tomorrow

Hebrews 2:14.... Pesky Devil, git!

Livin' in yesterday's tomorrow

Well-Known Member

Hebrews 2:14.... Pesky Devil, git!

Jesus is my Shield in any Desert or Storm

Hebrews 2:14.... Pesky Devil, git!

Jesus is my Shield in any Desert or Storm

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Jesus is my Shield in any Desert or Storm

Newbie

Jesus is my Shield in any Desert or Storm

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Jesus is my Shield in any Desert or Storm

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Jesus is my Shield in any Desert or Storm

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anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

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