Why secularism?

Nithavela said:

I suggest a death match with spiked boxing gloves to settle this matter.

I mean, you could use swords, but I feel that's been done already.

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With music from the Star Trek episode Amok Time playing.

ThievingMagpie said:

Whenever religious groups get to wield Government power, people tend to bleed. It's usually the suppression of other religious groups but also tends to happen to those with the "wrong brand" of whatever the dominant religion is. I'll take not getting blown up by a nail bomb over your desire to police people's bedrooms if that's alright.

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And that was actually the reason and purpose of the non-establishment clause in the first place. The Thirty Years War and the English Civil War were fresh in the minds of the Founders.

Pooja Sadhu said:

Psalms 9:17 says, “The wicked go down to the realm of the dead, and so do all the nations that forget God.” If nations forget God, or in other words embrace secularism and forgo godliness, they will “go down to the realm of the dead,” meaning they will face the wrath of God.

Like they say in English, the road to hell is paved with good intentions. There are deceived people who believe secularism for nations is a good thing. But scripture is clear that nations that don’t embrace God will be led astray and into the infernal depths of hell.

Let’s bring God back to society and quit thinking secularism is some sort of civic virtue.

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I think the only alternative to secular government is essentially religion by force, in the final analysis. A government is responsible for the welfare and rights of its citizens and by definition has to be able to apply those equally and in accordance, at least to a reasonable degree, with what citizens define as being good and acceptable for them.
God manifested himself as a completely powerless (by any worldly definition) individual, born in a back of beyond village and as basically a nobody. Jesus ignored the whole political structure he lived under throughout his life on earth. Beyond paying taxes and generally respecting the law he showed no interest in political power, and his disciples followed suit.

But every society needs a leading culture / religion. Right?

Kevin McCabe said:

But every society needs a leading culture / religion. Right?

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Does it? And are the two necessarily connected?

RDKirk said:

Does it? And are the two necessarily connected?

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Please elaborate.

Kevin McCabe said:

Please elaborate.

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If you think it's necessary--it's up to you to elaborate.

Kevin McCabe said:

But every society needs a leading culture / religion. Right?

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Possibly a chicken and egg type question.

But does a national state need a particular culture/religion?

Kevin McCabe said:

But every society needs a leading culture / religion. Right?

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Maybe a community is better with one, but countries are better off without. When no group has a majority all are safer from oppression.

Kevin McCabe said:

But every society needs a leading culture / religion. Right?

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I would not say a country needs such things mainly because religions and cultures tend to be products of societies in themselves. A culture would naturally form from the individuals in society acting with each other. The greater issue would be more along the lines that those ruling or representing a society would need to have values that can be sold or encouraged to the society.

Secularism in itself allows for the more natural growth of a society through a more libertarian ideal of allowing the people to govern themselves, while a top down religious society trends towards the authoritarian and has less trust in the people to rule themselves.

The greater issue seems to be whether a person thinks that the people should rule, or that ideals should rule.

Pooja Sadhu said:

Psalms 9:17 says, “The wicked go down to the realm of the dead, and so do all the nations that forget God.” If nations forget God, or in other words embrace secularism and forgo godliness, they will “go down to the realm of the dead,” meaning they will face the wrath of God.

Like they say in English, the road to hell is paved with good intentions. There are deceived people who believe secularism for nations is a good thing. But scripture is clear that nations that don’t embrace God will be led astray and into the infernal depths of hell.

Let’s bring God back to society and quit thinking secularism is some sort of civic virtue.

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The issue with asking that any religion be brought to rule society is the inevitable question of how. Throughout history the most successful ways of changing a culture and instilling a ruling ideology has been through war and taking power. This costs lives and resources that many that propose the initial change rarely take into account.

Secularism came about from many enlightenment thinkers coming to the realization that when people are left up to themselves to govern, society runs smoother. It has been shown through history that whether we are talking about Isis and its conquest of the Middle East, the Catholic expansion into Africa, the Rise of the USSR, or the colonial practices of Empires all show that he costs are always greater than the expected goal and end in tyranny.

thecolorsblend said:

See, that’s the thing right there, this works best with the government’s help. It may be necessary to rewrite some laws or even parts of the Constitution.

But it’s a sacrifice I’m willing to make, you know?

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Be careful of what you create, my dude. You only have the liberty of entertaining this because you're in power. The same mechanisms save other's faiths from being pushed upon you

How do you figure a country like Japan into all this, where most people say they don't believe in God and don't belong to any particular organized religion?

China seems to be doing OK too. Less than 1/2 a percent of its population lives in absolute poverty. Yet it's officially atheistic and most people there likewise don't believe in God.

Ignatius the Kiwi said:

Moving is certainly an option, but it isn't a necessity. People can stick around to challenge the system. Just look at the Muslims being invited into Europe, you think they aren't challenging European norms and ethics? I don't know what makes you think living in a religiously diverse society is inherently good.



Nothing gives me the right and I wouldn't impose Christianity on anyone. Christian values are a different matter. Much like how secularism as a belief is not imposed on anyone, but it's values certainty are imposed through coercion.

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Secularism isn't a value system in the same way that a Christian might think of Christianity. Secularism is an attitude towards absolutist, transcendent truth claims, the sort of thing that religious dogmatists peddle in.

Unless you like in an anarchic society where there are no standards, someone's moral philosophy or ideas are going to dictate the running of society. Secularism is no more innocent any of the ancient Christian regimes in this regard.

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Secularism is based on reason. Christianity is based on submission to religious authority. I know which one I prefer, and it's not blind submission to religious authority.

thecolorsblend said:

I don’t think it’s a better alternative though. That doesn’t work for me personally. So I’ll continue pushing my religion into public life as much as possible.

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This is the Might makes Right approach.
One where people compete and conflict against each other in order to gain power and force their way onto other people.

A non violent alternative would be to recognise that the world contains a diversity of people (and so does your country) and with this realisation comes the desire for a governing body to create protections for freedom of speech, freedom of religion AND freedom from religion. So that people can choose for themselves whether they want to worship or not and which god or celestial body or even nature itself to worship. And this means that public schools must focus on learning facts and skills rather than performing the rituals of one particular religion.

Pooja Sadhu said:

....But scripture is clear that nations that don’t embrace God will be led astray and into the infernal depths of hell.

Let’s bring God back to society and quit thinking secularism is some sort of civic virtue.

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"back to society" ?? God was never IN SOCIETY, and won't be, UNTIL JESUS RETURNS. (according to all Scripture)...

Secularism is bad, wicked , evil, sinful, and wrong, yes.
As written in Galatians, all society is death dealing. (pernicious).

Jesus did not die on the cross, crucified, to save society. No. He did not try nor do anything to save society. Nor can we who abide in Jesus. Nor should we. There is no instruction from Yahuweh (God) to try to change society nor to try to save it.

"Seek and save that which is lost" (men's souls; as many as the Lord Our God Shall send us to.... )

Men may be saved still, though even the RIGHTEOUS are JUST BARELY SAVED! (as written)....

SOciety/ the nations/ are already .... well, as written in Scripture.... not saved, and only a few of many will be saved ....

yeshuaslavejeff said:

Secularism is bad, wicked , evil, sinful, and wrong, yes.

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Depends on your definition of bad, wicked, evil, sinful and wrong.

If you think an inclusive society which respects diversity and various beliefs and cultures is bad, wicked, evil, sinful and wrong then there you go.

Personally I think forcing people into a specific religion, discriminating against people based on their beliefs and culture, forcing people to adhere to the rituals and traditions of one particular religion even if this conflicts with those people's values and beliefs, I would term this bad, wicked, evil, sinful and wrong.
And I can see this would create a large power struggle where those from different beliefs all fight each other so they can gain control and force their beliefs onto everyone.
It even forces the liberals to fight for power so that they can provide freedom of choice for everyone

Pooja Sadhu said:

Psalms 9:17 says, “The wicked go down to the realm of the dead, and so do all the nations that forget God.” If nations forget God, or in other words embrace secularism and forgo godliness, they will “go down to the realm of the dead,” meaning they will face the wrath of God.

Like they say in English, the road to hell is paved with good intentions. There are deceived people who believe secularism for nations is a good thing. But scripture is clear that nations that don’t embrace God will be led astray and into the infernal depths of hell.

Let’s bring God back to society and quit thinking secularism is some sort of civic virtue.

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Whose "God"? Even Christians can't agree on who God actually is. Don't believe me? There were riots in Boston over which Bible translation to use, KJV or D-R, in public schools. The Irish wanted D-R, the protestants wanted KJV. So, who decides whose "God" gets "brought back"?