Did Satan sin before or after Creation week?

mmksparbud · Aug 11, 2019

SkyWriting said:
Thank You! I was unaware of this passage but it backs what I've been claiming for months that Eden was not on this earth.

I would say that Eden was not a physical place at first Satan and the angels were cast out, then man was cast out to the realm of Satan as well. We are currently born into this Sin environment that was formed when Satan was cast out. Satan did not eat, so plants and animals were created from the dust by God, just for us, in Eden. God brought the animals to Adam to name them.

Not on this earth???
Gen 2:4 These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the LORD God made the earth and the heavens,

Gen 2:8 And the LORD God planted a garden eastward in Eden; and there he put the man whom he had formed.

The garden was not called Eden--It is the garden in Eden---This makes it sound as though Eden was the name of this planet, the garden was in the east. How in the world can you possibly get that the garden was not on this earth when the whole of Genesis 1-3 is the creation of this world and what happened in it? Everything in Genesis --everything in the bible is about this world except for a few things stated about heaven. After the fall, the tree of life, possibly the whole garden was taken to heaven for that is now where the tree of life is.

SkyWriting · Aug 11, 2019

mmksparbud said:
Not on this earth???
The garden was not called Eden--It is the garden in Eden---This makes it sound as though Eden was the name of this planet, the garden was in the east. How in the world can you possibly get that the garden was not on this earth when the whole of Genesis 1-3 is the creation of this world and what happened in it? Everything in Genesis --everything in the bible is about this world except for a few things stated about heaven. After the fall, the tree of life, possibly the whole garden was taken to heaven for that is now where the tree of life is.

East of Eden actually.
A few things.

- Man lives eternally when there
- I can't find the garden
- God walked there
- snakes talked there
- it had a tree of knowledge
- it had a tree of life
- abundant food
- the source water for 4 rivers
- all rivers were artesian spring water

- Man was removed from there and cannot return to it.
A good indication that this "here".....is not "there", Eden or east of it.

This world is not Paradise, the likely result of creation week. (Very good)

mmksparbud · Aug 11, 2019

SkyWriting said:
East of Eden actually.
A few things.

- Man lives eternally when there
- I can't find the garden
- God walked there
- snakes talked there
- it had a tree of knowledge
- it had a tree of life
- abundant food
- the source water for 4 rivers
- all rivers were artesian spring water

- Man was removed from there and cannot return to it.
A good indication that this "here".....is not "there", Eden or east of it.

In the original Hebrew

8 and~he~will~PLANT(V) (וַיִּטַּע / wai'yi'ta) YHWH (יְהוָה / YHWH) Elohiym (אֱלֹהִים / e'lo'him) GARDEN (גַּן / gan) in~Eden (בְּעֵדֶן / bê'ey'den) from~EAST (מִקֶּדֶם / mi'qe'dem) and~he~will~PLACE(V) (וַיָּשֶׂם / wai'ya'sem) THERE (שָׁם / sham) AT (אֶת / et) the~HUMAN (הָאָדָם / ha'a'dam) WHICH (אֲשֶׁר / a'sher) he~did~MOLD(V) (יָצָר / ya'tsar)

RMT: and YHWH the Elohiym planted a garden in Eden from the east and placed there the human which he molded,

No--east in Eden actually. Here on this earth---Which is what all of Gen 1-3 is all about---not a garden somewhere out there ---not to mention that at least 2 of those 4 rivers are very munch on this planet. And the countries and description of the land was given. All on this earth.

10 and~RIVER (וְנָהָר / wê'na'har) GO.OUT(V)~ing(ms) (יֹצֵא / yo'tsey) from~Eden (מֵעֵדֶן / mey'ey'den) to~>~make~DRINK(V) (לְהַשְׁקוֹת / lê'hash'qot) AT (אֶת / et) the~GARDEN (הַגָּן / ha'gan) and~from~THERE (וּמִשָּׁם / u'mi'sham) he~will~be~DIVIDE.APART(V) (יִפָּרֵד / yi'pa'reyd) and~he~did~EXIST(V) (וְהָיָה / wê'hai'yah) to~FOUR (לְאַרְבָּעָה / lê'ar'ba'ah) HEAD ~s (רָאשִׁים / ra'shim)

RMT: and a river was going out from Eden to make the garden drink, and from there he will be divided apart existing to four heads.

11 TITLE (שֵׁם / sheym) the~UNIT (הָאֶחָד / ha'e'hhad) Pishon (פִּישׁוֹן / pi'shon) HE (הוּא / hu) the~GO.AROUND(V)~ing(ms) (הַסֹּבֵב / ha'so'veyv) AT (אֵת / eyt) ALL (כָּל / kol) LAND (אֶרֶץ / e'rets) the~Hhawilah (הַחֲוִילָה / ha'hha'wi'lah) WHICH (אֲשֶׁר / a'sher) THERE (שָׁם / sham) the~GOLD (הַזָּהָב / ha'za'hav)

RMT: The title of the one is Pishon, he is the one going around all the land of the Hhawilah where there is the gold,

12 and~GOLD (וּזְהַב / uz'hav) the~LAND (הָאָרֶץ / ha'a'rets) the~SHE (הַהִוא / ha'hi) FUNCTIONAL (טוֹב / tov) THERE (שָׁם / sham) the~AMBER (הַבְּדֹלַח / ha'be'do'lahh) and~STONE (וְאֶבֶן / wê'e'ven) the~ONYX (הַשֹּׁהַם / ha'sho'ham)

RMT: and the gold of that land is functional, there is the amber and the stone of onyx,

13 and~TITLE (וְשֵׁם / wê'sheym) the~RIVER (הַנָּהָר / ha'na'har) the~SECOND (הַשֵּׁנִי / ha'shey'ni) Giyhhon (גִּיחוֹן / gi'hhon) HE (הוּא / hu) the~GO.AROUND(V)~ing(ms) (הַסּוֹבֵב / ha'so'veyv) AT (אֵת / eyt) ALL (כָּל / kol) LAND (אֶרֶץ / e'rets) Kush (כּוּשׁ / kush)

RMT: and the title of the second river is Giyhhon, he is the one going around all the land of Kush,

14 and~TITLE (וְשֵׁם / wê'sheym) the~RIVER (הַנָּהָר / ha'na'har) the~THIRD (הַשְּׁלִישִׁי / hash'li'shi) Hhideqel (חִדֶּקֶל / hhi'de'qel) HE (הוּא / hu) the~WALK(V)~ing(ms) (הַהֹלֵךְ / ha'ho'leykh) EASTWARD (קִדְמַת / qid'mat) Ashur (אַשּׁוּר / a'shur) and~the~RIVER (וְהַנָּהָר / wê'ha'na'har) the~FOURTH (הָרְבִיעִי / har'vi'i) HE (הוּא / hu) Perat (פְרָת / phê'rat)

RMT: and the title of the third river is Hhideqel, he is the one walking eastward of Ashur, and the fourth river, he is Perat,

robycop3 · Aug 11, 2019

Agree with Oscarr !

AlexDTX · Aug 11, 2019

CharismaticLady said:
I always thought Satan sinned way before Adam and Eve were in the Garden of Eden. But last night Ezekiel 28 has filled me with questions.

1. Was the Garden of Eden first a part of heaven before Creation week?
2. Was the Garden of Eden first created in heaven for Lucifer?
3. After Lucifer sinned he was cast down to the ground. Is that ground, earth, or the ground in heaven. If earth, that means he sinned after earth was created, but how long before Adam and Eve was created?
5. Was Satan's first sin and Adam and Eve's first sin at the same time?
6. Was the Garden of Eden planted from what was created, or did God bring it down to earth out of heaven.

While I believe the passage can be applied to Satan, it should be noted that by context he is not talking about Satan, but the prince of Tyre.

Eze 28:2 Son of man, say unto the prince of Tyrus, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Because thine heart is lifted up, and thou hast said, I am a God, I sit in the seat of God, in the midst of the seas; yet thou art a man, and not God, though thou set thine heart as the heart of God:

I hold to Andrew Wommack's opinion. He thinks Lucifer fell the moment he saw Adam was made in the image of God, not before. His reasoning is that what good Father allows evil next to a new born child? He thinks Lucifer was allowed in the Garden because he was a ministering spirit for those of salvation (Heb 1:14). Lucifer became Satan when envy came into his heart and he undermined Adam's faith in God when he said to Eve, "Hath God said..."

But, of course, I don't know. Nor does it matter. What matters is that Lucifer and other angels fell and became our enemy, but Christ overcame him and the world.

mmksparbud · Aug 11, 2019

AlexDofTX said:
While I believe the passage can be applied to Satan, it should be noted that by context he is not talking about Satan, but the prince of Tyre.

Eze 28:2 Son of man, say unto the prince of Tyrus, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Because thine heart is lifted up, and thou hast said, I am a God, I sit in the seat of God, in the midst of the seas; yet thou art a man, and not God, though thou set thine heart as the heart of God:

I hold to Andrew Wommack's opinion. He thinks Lucifer fell the moment he saw Adam was made in the image of God, not before. His reasoning is that what good Father allows evil next to a new born child? He thinks Lucifer was allowed in the Garden because he was a ministering spirit for those of salvation (Heb 1:14). Lucifer became Satan when envy came into his heart and he undermined Adam's faith in God when he said to Eve, "Hath God said..."

But, of course, I don't know. Nor does it matter. What matters is that Lucifer and other angels fell and became our enemy, but Christ overcame him and the world.

The earthly King of Tyre was never in the garden of Eden, nor was he ever anointed a covering cherub, no one has ever been perfect from the day they were created---only born innocent.

Eze 28:13 Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created.
Eze 28:14 Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.
Eze 28:15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.

PizzaAddict · Aug 11, 2019

CharismaticLady said:
Yes, but how long before or after Adam and Eve sinned? Did he sin with Adam and Eve, then run back to heaven, and then got kicked out?

If the Garden of Eden was created for Lucifer and was in heaven, then brought to earth, was it taken from Lucifer because he sinned first?

Seems like Satan was in Garden of Eden so must be after the creation week.
Cast down to earth from mountain of God can mean he lost his leadership in heaven , he was Cherub so hightest or one of hightest of angels , because we see later on in Job that other angels are still visiting God and even Satan comes to him in heaven so he still can go up and down therefore the casting back to earth means he lost his authority .

Garden was created on earth , first 1-6 days whole earth then 6th day God created garden with two types of fruit trees the nice ones and ones with good fruit for eating not all trees , also each animal so Adam can name them .

SkyWriting · Aug 11, 2019

mmksparbud said:
In the original Hebrew

8 and~he~will~PLANT(V) (וַיִּטַּע / wai'yi'ta) YHWH (יְהוָה / YHWH) Elohiym (אֱלֹהִים / e'lo'him) GARDEN (גַּן / gan) in~Eden (בְּעֵדֶן / bê'ey'den) from~EAST (מִקֶּדֶם / mi'qe'dem) and~he~will~PLACE(V) (וַיָּשֶׂם / wai'ya'sem) THERE (שָׁם / sham) AT (אֶת / et) the~HUMAN (הָאָדָם / ha'a'dam) WHICH (אֲשֶׁר / a'sher) he~did~MOLD(V) (יָצָר / ya'tsar)

RMT: and YHWH the Elohiym planted a garden in Eden from the east and placed there the human which he molded,

No--east in Eden actually. Here on this earth---Which is what all of Gen 1-3 is all about---not a garden somewhere out there ---not to mention that at least 2 of those 4 rivers are very munch on this planet. And the countries and description of the land was given. All on this earth.

10 and~RIVER (וְנָהָר / wê'na'har) GO.OUT(V)~ing(ms) (יֹצֵא / yo'tsey) from~Eden (מֵעֵדֶן / mey'ey'den) to~>~make~DRINK(V) (לְהַשְׁקוֹת / lê'hash'qot) AT (אֶת / et) the~GARDEN (הַגָּן / ha'gan) and~from~THERE (וּמִשָּׁם / u'mi'sham) he~will~be~DIVIDE.APART(V) (יִפָּרֵד / yi'pa'reyd) and~he~did~EXIST(V) (וְהָיָה / wê'hai'yah) to~FOUR (לְאַרְבָּעָה / lê'ar'ba'ah) HEAD ~s (רָאשִׁים / ra'shim)

RMT: and a river was going out from Eden to make the garden drink, and from there he will be divided apart existing to four heads.

11 TITLE (שֵׁם / sheym) the~UNIT (הָאֶחָד / ha'e'hhad) Pishon (פִּישׁוֹן / pi'shon) HE (הוּא / hu) the~GO.AROUND(V)~ing(ms) (הַסֹּבֵב / ha'so'veyv) AT (אֵת / eyt) ALL (כָּל / kol) LAND (אֶרֶץ / e'rets) the~Hhawilah (הַחֲוִילָה / ha'hha'wi'lah) WHICH (אֲשֶׁר / a'sher) THERE (שָׁם / sham) the~GOLD (הַזָּהָב / ha'za'hav)

RMT: The title of the one is Pishon, he is the one going around all the land of the Hhawilah where there is the gold,

12 and~GOLD (וּזְהַב / uz'hav) the~LAND (הָאָרֶץ / ha'a'rets) the~SHE (הַהִוא / ha'hi) FUNCTIONAL (טוֹב / tov) THERE (שָׁם / sham) the~AMBER (הַבְּדֹלַח / ha'be'do'lahh) and~STONE (וְאֶבֶן / wê'e'ven) the~ONYX (הַשֹּׁהַם / ha'sho'ham)

RMT: and the gold of that land is functional, there is the amber and the stone of onyx,

13 and~TITLE (וְשֵׁם / wê'sheym) the~RIVER (הַנָּהָר / ha'na'har) the~SECOND (הַשֵּׁנִי / ha'shey'ni) Giyhhon (גִּיחוֹן / gi'hhon) HE (הוּא / hu) the~GO.AROUND(V)~ing(ms) (הַסּוֹבֵב / ha'so'veyv) AT (אֵת / eyt) ALL (כָּל / kol) LAND (אֶרֶץ / e'rets) Kush (כּוּשׁ / kush)

RMT: and the title of the second river is Giyhhon, he is the one going around all the land of Kush,

14 and~TITLE (וְשֵׁם / wê'sheym) the~RIVER (הַנָּהָר / ha'na'har) the~THIRD (הַשְּׁלִישִׁי / hash'li'shi) Hhideqel (חִדֶּקֶל / hhi'de'qel) HE (הוּא / hu) the~WALK(V)~ing(ms) (הַהֹלֵךְ / ha'ho'leykh) EASTWARD (קִדְמַת / qid'mat) Ashur (אַשּׁוּר / a'shur) and~the~RIVER (וְהַנָּהָר / wê'ha'na'har) the~FOURTH (הָרְבִיעִי / har'vi'i) HE (הוּא / hu) Perat (פְרָת / phê'rat)

RMT: and the title of the third river is Hhideqel, he is the one walking eastward of Ashur, and the fourth river, he is Perat,

OK

- Man lives eternally when there
- I can't find the garden or the flaming sword guarding it
- God walked there alongside Adam
- snakes talked there
- it had a tree of knowledge
- it had a tree of life
- abundant food
- all rivers were artesian spring water
- Man was removed from there and cannot return to it.

A good indication that this here earth.....is not "there",
in Eden or east of it or part of it.

The fact that rivers fitting the biblical descriptions have been
named the same as the Bible counterparts is expected.

Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John are popular names.

"Noah gained the most popularity as a baby name in 1998, when it's usage went up by 142.57%. During this year, 13408 babies were named Noah, which was 0.3673% of the baby boys born in the USA that year. The most the names popularity ever grew to was 0.535%, in this year alone more than 20000 boys were named Noah."

(With no documented relation.)

mmksparbud · Aug 11, 2019

SkyWriting said:
OK

- Man lives eternally when there
- I can't find the garden or the flaming sword guarding it
- God walked there alongside Adam
- snakes talked there
- it had a tree of knowledge
- it had a tree of life
- abundant food
- all rivers were artesian spring water
- Man was removed from there and cannot return to it.

A good indication that this here earth.....is not "there",
in Eden or east of it or part of it.

LOL! It is an indication that when they were in the garden, they would live eternally if they ate of the tree of life. That there is no flaming sword to guard the tree anymore for it is not here. God walked there---Enoch walked with God, and God was with the Israelites and that was all right here on earth. After the flood there was no longer abundant food anywhere, the topography of the earth was a bit rearranged, man was caste out and it will be remade after the 1000 years just a Rev. says. This whole earth will be remade. Didn't you get the memo? It's in Rev. 22-23.

CharismaticLady · Aug 11, 2019

mmksparbud said:
Just a possibility---Eze 28:13 Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created.

This seems to describe him before the fall. That's just a big maybe as we do not know how long Adam and Eve were in the garden before they fell. But in my post I said that he fell in heaven for there he lead 1/3 of the angels to his side. Then he was cast out and he turned his anger towards Adam and Eve.

Yes, we don't know how long Adam and Eve were in the garden before they fell, but Satan was there before he sinned also. So that is after creation week. I never knew that before.

CharismaticLady · Aug 11, 2019

Oscarr said:
I don't see that at all. Lucifer sinned long before God created the world and planted the Garden of Eden.

Show me your proof from Scripture. Ezekiel 28 says the opposite of your post. But what you believe is what I've been taught all my life. I never questioned it until I read this.

CharismaticLady · Aug 11, 2019

AlexDofTX said:
But, of course, I don't know. Nor does it matter.

It matters to me. I hate when I find I was force fed erroneous doctrine. I like to have the TRUTH.

SkyWriting · Aug 11, 2019

mmksparbud said:
LOL! It is an indication that when they were in the garden, they would live eternally if they ate of the tree of life. That there is no flaming sword to guard the tree anymore for it is not here. God walked there---Enoch walked with God, and God was with the Israelites and that was all right here on earth. After the flood there was no longer abundant food anywhere, the topography of the earth was a bit rearranged, man was caste out and it will be remade after the 1000 years just a Rev. says. This whole earth will be remade. Didn't you get the memo? It's in Rev. 22-23.

Exactly. This earth is not the creation that was "very good" and the end of creation week.

John 1
18 No one has ever seen God; the only God, who is at the Father's side, he has made him known.

Exodus 33
20 But,” he said, “you cannot see my face, for man shall not see me and live.”

1 John 4
12 No one has ever seen God; if we love one another, God abides in us and his love is perfected in us.

John 6
46 Not that anyone has seen the Father except He who is from God;
He has seen the Father.

Colossians 1:15
He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation.

mmksparbud · Aug 11, 2019

CharismaticLady said:
Yes, we don't know how long Adam and Eve were in the garden before they fell, but Satan was there before he sinned also. So that is after creation week. I never knew that before.

We still don't, it's speculation.

SkyWriting · Aug 11, 2019

CharismaticLady said:
It matters to me. I hate when I find I was force fed erroneous doctrine. I like to have the TRUTH.

Every person, including your pastor, thinks they know the Truth,
which is why there are so many versions out there being taught.

That's the purpose of correct prayer. To seek God directly.
Who Else Wants to finally SEE Gods Answers to Prayers?

mmksparbud · Aug 11, 2019

SkyWriting said:
Exactly. This earth is not the creation that was "very good" and the end of creation week.

John 1
18 No one has ever seen God; the only God, who is at the Father's side, he has made him known.

Exodus 33
20 But,” he said, “you cannot see my face, for man shall not see me and live.”

1 John 4
12 No one has ever seen God; if we love one another, God abides in us and his love is perfected in us.

John 6
46 Not that anyone has seen the Father except He who is from God;
He has seen the Father.

Colossians 1:15
He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation.

Yes it is---that is what Gen 1-3 states. I don't know what book you are reading. Jesus is the creator--He created this world and it is He that created everything, and it is He who was there at the end of Creation walking with Adam and Eve.
Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Joh 1:2 The same was in the beginning with God.
Joh 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
Joh 1:4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.

SkyWriting · Aug 11, 2019

mmksparbud said:
Yes it is---that is what Gen 1-3 states. I don't know what book you are reading. Jesus is the creator--He created this world and it is He that created everything, and it is He who was there at the end of Creation walking with Adam and Eve.
Joh 1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Joh 1:2 The same was in the beginning with God.
Joh 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
Joh 1:4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.

This is not paradise though. This place will be destroyed.
And we are not eternal here. In Paradise, we were.
We are born into a sin condition, not into Paradise.
If you listen, you will hear the complaints about this place.

CharismaticLady · Aug 11, 2019

mmksparbud said:
We still don't, it's speculation.

How can you call that Satan was in the Garden of Eden before he sinned?

“You were the seal of perfection,
Full of wisdom and perfect in beauty.
13 You were in Eden, the garden of God;
Every precious stone was your covering:
The sardius, topaz, and diamond,
Beryl, onyx, and jasper,
Sapphire, turquoise, and emerald with gold.
The workmanship of your timbrels and pipes
Was prepared for you on the day you were created.

CharismaticLady · Aug 11, 2019

SkyWriting said:
Every person, including your pastor, thinks they know the Truth,
which is why there are so many versions out there being taught.

That's the purpose of correct prayer. To seek God directly.
Who Else Wants to finally SEE Gods Answers to Prayers?

Yes, I agree, and that's why I ask God directly. With all the different contradicting doctrines out there, a few years ago I asked God to teach me His meaning to His Word. Since then one clarity after another has happened.

SkyWriting · Aug 11, 2019

mmksparbud said:
Yes it is---that is what Gen 1-3 states. I don't know what book you are reading.

Bible.

Did Satan sin before or after Creation week?

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