What are the ethics of this?

Albion

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That's not my plan. I think this plan is highly unethical and amounts to gaming the system. My husband wants to do this so he can get a new jeep instead of doing what's right. I just wish I knew how to convince him of the moral issues associated with this.
From reading the other posts, it looks like confronting him about the moral issues involved won't be nearly as likely of success as bringing to his attention the real legal downside to it. That assumes that what other members have said here is correct. You will have to double check with someone.
 
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-Sasha-

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Once a creditor is successful in obtaining a judgment against a debtor, the creditor can take steps to garnish wages or seize assets
Seize assets...including his nice new jeep?
If he doesn't want to pay the balance in full, I think it would be wise to set up a payment plan with the ER, and make the payments. It could end up as something like $100 a month.
 
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Toro

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To your husband, why not pay off the debit that you can.... and get the jeep later?

Money can be saved again AND it woukd mean you dont have to go as far to repair your credit.

Its not ethical, nor is it wise to sacrifice the future for the sake of a want today...

Its very short sighted IMO
 
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gideon123

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I will reply for the Lord.

Your husband needs to pay the $6000 to the ER. It is a matter of honesty. You owe the money, and the Lord has given you the funds necessary to pay. Biblically, this is a no-brainer. You must honor your debts. The ER provided treatment, and your husband recovered. They are not at fault

If you obey the Lords commands, then perhaps the Lord will bless you and you will gain future earnings that you do not expect ... enough to replace the money you lost.

If you disobey, then certainly you will be in trouble with courts and collections. But more than this, God might punish you and take away the vehicle (that you coveted).

See this as a test of faith.

Blessings,
Gideon
 
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ChicanaRose

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This doesn't really sit well with me ethically. On one hand I know 6k is a lot of money and that some times defaulting on a medical debt is unavoidable, however to me it seems what my husband wants to do is taking advantage.
Does any one have any advice?

It doesn't sit well with me either. You can pray about it and try to set aside a time to sit down and talk with him. If that does not work, I would talk to your pastor and receive an input.
 
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Maria Billingsley

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Recently my husband injured himself and had to go to the ER. He has insurance through his work so we thought it would be covered minus deductible plus Co pay. However, due to this being a freestanding ER and it being out of network, legally they are entitled to balance bill us and we have to pay the difference.
It turns out we have to pay about $6k that was not covered by insurance. We had exhausted all our appeals and by law we owe this money. The thing is we have the money since my hubby has been saving up to buy a jeep. This would knock him back to about $4k towards his dream car if he paid the bill.
His plan is to go out and plunk the entire amount he saved (about 10k) as his down payment on the Jeep and just let 6k we owe go into collections. So basically he is planning on getting his car loan before stiffing the ER so he can still get a good rate on the car loan.
This doesn't really sit well with me ethically. On one hand I know 6k is a lot of money and that some times defaulting on a medical debt is unavoidable, however to me it seems what my husband wants to do is taking advantage.
Does any one have any advice?
Get better insurance? I have insurance that covers no matter where you go in emergency.
 
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Phil W

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That's not my plan. I think this plan is highly unethical and amounts to gaming the system. My husband wants to do this so he can get a new jeep instead of doing what's right. I just wish I knew how to convince him of the moral issues associated with this.
Talk to a lawyer...about having your debts and credit separated from hubby's.
 
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Endeavourer

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Seize assets...including his nice new jeep?

I had to LOL at this one.

Vehicles are some of the easiest assets to seize so if there is an enforcement of the judgement, vehicles can be targeted.

True story: In college I got a loan to buy a piano from my hometown community bank. They refused to take my piano as collateral and told me that if I didn't pay they weren't coming in my dorm after the piano but my car was easy to take and they absolutely would take my car. I had to put my car up as the collateral instead.
 
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JIMINZ

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I have heard, that if you go to the Hospital and offer then a reasonable amount as beginning payment on the debt, if they accept the payment, that is saying that the amount is ok with them, if they refuse the amount offered try another amount.

The other thing that hit me is, the debt was incurred for an Emergency room visit, what would you say were the chances, he might have another emergency before or even after the 7 years run out, would he expect to go to the same Hospital and expect Treatment with an outstanding delinquent debt?

It's really weird how things happen when you don't do things the right way the first time.

Good luck I hope your not affected financially because of his ignorance.
 
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RaymondG

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Forget the moral and legal ramifications.....I would be more concerned with the spirit repercussions.....which affects all whether they believe in God or not. There is a law of sowing and reaping...which is not broken. What a man soweth, that shall he also reap......for God is not mocked... Therefore do unto others as you WILL HAVE done unto you.

There are seeds being sown with these actions, and there will be a harvest time.......When he reaps the harvest....would it be worth the Jeep?

If I were you, I wouldnt talk about morality or ethics.....I would assure him that you will do everything possible to help him get this jeep after the debt is paid. Start sacrificing thnigs that you dont need, and putting that money aside......Give him 50s and 100s every now and then and tell him to put it aside for the jeep payment. When he sees you are serious, he will dig up those seeds of deceitfulness and selflessness and allow room for you to plant good seeds of self sacrifice, and love....for which you both will reap the harvest of.....
 
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The Barbarian

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My wife used to handle health care insurance problems for a medical school. What is described here infuriates her. Some urgent care centers have gotten themselves through a loophole, reclassified as ERs, even though they are not attached to a hospital.

They can then pile on much greater charges for the same treatments than an urgent care center could. Often, they hide this from patients, and fleece insurers or patients as they can.

If you truly need an ER, go to a real one, attached to a hospital. The freestanding ones are set up to get what they can from you.
 
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gideon123

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Btw, there is nothing wrong with you hiring a lawyer, if you feel the ER charges are too high. Ask the lawyer to negotiate the costs down to 50% of the current bill. It is very possible that the ER has padded the costs for their services.

The poiint, though, is that God has blessed you with the funds to pay the bill (or a reduced version of the bill). We should always aim to do what is right in the Lord's eyes.
 
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robycop3

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Your hubby needs to realize it's not what other "Christians" mighta done to him; HE needs a personal relationship with Jesus. And Jesus will want him to pay the debt. However, I don't believe it's wrong to try to negotiate to reduce the debt, but it IS wrong to try to avoid it altogether by unethical means.

He should remember that he can't take the Jeep with him into the next world !
 
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NoelJack

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My wife used to handle health care insurance problems for a medical school. What is described here infuriates her. Some urgent care centers have gotten themselves through a loophole, reclassified as ERs, even though they are not attached to a hospital.

They can then pile on much greater charges for the same treatments than an urgent care center could. Often, they hide this from patients, and fleece insurers or patients as they can.

If you truly need an ER, go to a real one, attached to a hospital. The freestanding ones are set up to get what they can from you.
This is exactly the situation. Through a loophole they are able to pretty much over bill us. My husband is arguing that he is justified in not paying because he too is using a loophole ( in our state you cannot garnish garnish wages or seize vehicles to satisfy judgements unless they are for IRS, child support or alimony ) we live in something called a debtors state where debtors have much more rights than creditors. I don't think what the ER is doing is right either but the law is on their side in the regards that the debt is valid. However the law does not allow for many mechanisms to collect on the debt in this state. I personally think two wrongs don't make a right and that we should still pay since the debt is valid.
What they are doing is sleazy but is legal. I guess what my husband wants to do is legal too but it feels wrong.
 
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RDKirk

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But he will have to pay up at some time, won't he? --assuming that he doesn't declare bankruptcy, that is.

If it is bankruptcy, that could be considered unethical, but I would recommend getting a lot of professional advice if that is the plan.

No, he won't. It's unlikely the hospital will take him to court, they will just send it to a collection agency (the collection agency will then own the debt).

He can let it go to collections, refusing to pay. That will, of course, ruin his credit record. But in seven years it will be dropped from his credit record.
 
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RDKirk

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My wife used to handle health care insurance problems for a medical school. What is described here infuriates her. Some urgent care centers have gotten themselves through a loophole, reclassified as ERs, even though they are not attached to a hospital.

They can then pile on much greater charges for the same treatments than an urgent care center could. Often, they hide this from patients, and fleece insurers or patients as they can.

If you truly need an ER, go to a real one, attached to a hospital. The freestanding ones are set up to get what they can from you.

My own doctor told me precisely this. His clinic has an attached ER, but on just my last visit, he looked around him, lowered his voice, and said, "If you have an emergency and aren't actually bleeding out, do not come here. And don't go to one of those strip mall ERs. Go to an ER connected to a hospital. Those ER doctors will have privileges with that hospital and can immediately get you to an operating room, or to any tests you need. You won't have to wait for transportation or more insurance paperwork or being put at the end of the line behind the patients whose doctors have privileges in that hospital."
 
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RDKirk

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Yeah, on top of the fact that we have the money to pay right now, my husband is negotiating a payment plan with them. He is doing it solely to buy more time.
His intention is to drag out the payment plan negotiations for a couple months, then not make any payments so he will have 6 months from the day the first payment becomes past due, which will give him almost a year to use his credit before it takes a ding.

Let's be real here.

We're not talking about "unethical" or "loopholes."

We are talking about out-and-out theft.
 
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The Barbarian

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My own doctor told me precisely this. His clinic has an attached ER, but on just my last visit, he looked around him, lowered his voice, and said, "If you have an emergency and aren't actually bleeding out, do not come here. And don't go to one of those strip mall ERs. Go to an ER connected to a hospital. Those ER doctors will have privileges with that hospital and can immediately get you to an operating room, or to any tests you need. You won't have to wait for transportation or more insurance paperwork or being put at the end of the line behind the patients whose doctors have privileges in that hospital."

Those are also good point to remember. Just never go to an "ER" not attached to a hospital. The problem is, they sometimes won't tell you they are classified as an ER. It's important to check before you check in. They might lie to you, so there's no sure way, other than planning ahead, and knowing which urgent care centers aren't running that scam. It's perfectly legal for them to do so; caveat emptor.
 
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NoelJack

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Those are also good point to remember. Just never go to an "ER" not attached to a hospital. The problem is, they sometimes won't tell you they are classified as an ER. It's important to check before you check in. They might lie to you, so there's no sure way, other than planning ahead, and knowing which urgent care centers aren't running that scam. It's perfectly legal for them to do so; caveat emptor.
This is why I personally think we should pay and take it as a lesson learned since what they are doing is perfectly legal. I think it's gouging but they are operating within the law so I think it's or responsibility to pay. I believe firmly that WE have a responsibility to yeast others the way we would like to be treated REGARDLESS of if it is reciprocated. Unfortunately, even talking to my husband about or responsibility to do the right thing had hardened him even further against paying. Especially since one of the lawyers at his work has practically walked him through how to be sneaky about avoiding all potential consequences save for the credit hit.
 
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The Barbarian

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This is why I personally think we should pay and take it as a lesson learned since what they are doing is perfectly legal. I think it's gouging but they are operating within the law so I think it's or responsibility to pay. I believe firmly that WE have a responsibility to yeast others the way we would like to be treated REGARDLESS of if it is reciprocated. Unfortunately, even talking to my husband about or responsibility to do the right thing had hardened him even further against paying. Especially since one of the lawyers at his work has practically walked him through how to be sneaky about avoiding all potential consequences save for the credit hit.

Galling as it might be, the right thing is to pay up. But I certainly agree that you should negotiate. My wife was on the inside, and she knows all medical facilities charge what they think they can get, because there are many times, they don't get paid at all.

Which doesn't mean that you should be paying for it. See what you can negotiate. But sure the agreement includes agreement not to put a ding on your credit report.
 
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