At what point can Protestants say the early/medieval church is not our church?

GreekOrthodox

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I'm going to suggest the early second century. A Protestant theology of what the Church is, salvation by faith alone, Sola Scriptura and Church leadership do not fit easily or especially well into that context. It's hard to imagine Ignatius or Clement approving of people placing themselves in authority like Luther or Calvin did. Nor do certain of the Fathers statements about salvation add up to a clean or strict version of Sola Fide. They suggest at multiple times, works do matter in the context of our salvation.

I was listening to a podcast of Byzantine history and one of the breaking points after 1054 between East and West is the Normans really threw everyone for a loop by 1130 (in red). Pope Gregory VII, in reaction to the Norman threat to Rome, began to join 'em if you can't beat 'em with the Normans and successfully pushed the Papacy into a political power, especially with forcing the Emperor Henry to walk to Canossa to beg for forgiveness. I would say this time frame is when Rome really starts breaking off into what the Reformers objected to.

1280px-Normannen.png
 
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hedrick

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It's hard to answer the OP's question for at least two reasons
  • There are differences among Protestants. I would say that a gap opened between the NT picture of Jesus and the Church's very early, as teachings about Jesus came to be understood within a Greek context rather than a Jewish one. However most Protestants are OK with that, and thus see different issues.
  • Changes occurred gradually, so different people may identify different places that they consider critical.
I think there were several root causes, all of which we can see by the end of the 1st Century. I don't mean that the Church had ceased to be legitimate then, just that the seeds had been planted for later developments.
  • The rule of bishops, succession and tradition were all there by the end of the 1st Cent or early second. The kind of papal claims that the Reformed objected to were much later, but the seeds were already there
  • Veneration of martyrs grew fairly early. The tendency of the church to incorporate this kind of "popular piety" into theology goes back to that. This resulted in the end in Marian piety, transsubstantiation, and various other problematical doctrines.
  • Celebration of virginity and veneration of "heroes" that abused their bodies developed very early. This led to dubious ethics, particularly in the area of sex, although many Protestants are OK with it.
  • The adoption of Greek thought for theology was well under way by the 2nd Cent. Again, many current Protestants are OK with many of the results of this, but I'm not.
But the Reformers thought the things they objected to were fairly late, medieval and late medieval. The specific, codified doctrines were, in some cases. It's just that things that led to them go back before 300.
 
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GreekOrthodox

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The adoption of Greek thought for theology was well under way by the 2nd Cent. Again, many current Protestants are OK with many of the results of this, but I'm not.

Dear Hedrick,
Interesting you bring this up. I've been geeking out on a podcast called "The History of Philosophy Without Any Gaps" done by a professor of philosophy at King's College. It started in 2010 and he is still going strong with like episode 3xx. One thing I wanted to toss out there is the question if Christianity could even exist without Hellenistic philosophy. By Jesus's time, we have the notion of Logos, brought up by both St. John and Philo of Alexandria. I don't know if the OT Jewish notion of the soul is the same as what the NT uses. Even Jesus picks a side with the Pharisees of the resurrection vs. the Saducees with no resurrection. Might be a starting point for a different thread though.
 
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hedrick

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Dear Hedrick,
Interesting you bring this up. I've been geeking out on a podcast called "The History of Philosophy Without Any Gaps" done by a professor of philosophy at King's College. It started in 2010 and he is still going strong with like episode 3xx. One thing I wanted to toss out there is the question if Christianity could even exist without Hellenistic philosophy. By Jesus's time, we have the notion of Logos, brought up by both St. John and Philo of Alexandria. I don't know if the OT Jewish notion of the soul is the same as what the NT uses. Even Jesus picks a side with the Pharisees of the resurrection vs. the Saducees with no resurrection. Might be a starting point for a different thread though.
Yes, it could. There's been a lot of recent work on the Jewish background of Christianity. There were Greek influences (including the word) on the idea of the Logos, but it's based on Wisdom, as shown in Proverbs. I think without Greek influence we could still have Jesus as the embodiment of divine Wisdom.

Redeeming death also has a home in Jewish tradition.

Yes, I think it's possible to have Christianity without Greek philosophy. For pointers to that approach, take a look at "A Man Attested by God", by J R Daniel Kirk (a book which, together with a couple of paragraphs that were too soft on homosexuality, got him booted from Fuller). It looks at the understanding of Jesus in the Synoptics. For details on the Jewish background of the Logos, see "The Personification of Wisdom," by Alice Sinnott.

I believe you can definitely have Christianity based on that. Of course it might look more like mainline Protestantism than traditional Christianity.
 
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prodromos

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The adoption of Greek thought for theology was well under way by the 2nd Cent. Again, many current Protestants are OK with many of the results of this, but I'm not.
I believe it is God's providence that Plato and Aristotle had laid the groundwork with which the Church was able to utilise and transcend for the spread of the Gospel.
 
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Quid est Veritas?

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I was listening to a podcast of Byzantine history and one of the breaking points after 1054 between East and West is the Normans really threw everyone for a loop by 1130 (in red). Pope Gregory VII, in reaction to the Norman threat to Rome, began to join 'em if you can't beat 'em with the Normans and successfully pushed the Papacy into a political power, especially with forcing the Emperor Henry to walk to Canossa to beg for forgiveness. I would say this time frame is when Rome really starts breaking off into what the Reformers objected to.

1280px-Normannen.png
Gregory VII was a reforming Pope, a scion of the Clunaic revival. A big part thereof was to return prelates and monks to simplicity, a return to keeping to the values of the Church. Absentee bishops and the like, as well as multiple benefices or sees kept empty for tax revenue to the detriment of souls, were big problems.

Opposing Henry IV was necessary to further this, to put reformer Cluny-minded churchmen into the vacant bishoprics, instead of worldly men that the Emperor would have liked.

While Gregory VII certainly strengthened the papacy, his ideals were more in line with the later reformers than you would give him credit for. He was trying to reform a worldly Church, not unlike the Reformers and the worldly Renaissance one.

Likewise his association with the Normans was to facilitate this, by giving him temporal power to oppose the Emperor, and Normandy via figures like Lanfranc and monasteries like Bec, were stalwarts of the Cluniac revival. Ultimately it ended in failure where papal hegemony was concerned, as Gregory VII died in exile, "because I loved righteousness" as his epitaph states.
 
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thomas15

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Many of the responses to the OP center around the concept that somehow one particular branch of Christianity has maintained constant rules for worship or government and is thus a more pure version off what the NT envisions the church should be.

The problem is of course had the 16th century reformers seen a reflection of NT practices in any of the non-Roman Orthodox churches then it is likely that most modern protestant groups would look a lot like Orthodox churches. But they don't, rather the product of the early reformation looks more like Rome than Orthodox.

Here is the best response:
It's hard to answer the OP's question for at least two reasons
  • There are differences among Protestants. I would say that a gap opened between the NT picture of Jesus and the Church's very early, as teachings about Jesus came to be understood within a Greek context rather than a Jewish one. However most Protestants are OK with that, and thus see different issues.
  • Changes occurred gradually, so different people may identify different places that they consider critical.


Irenaeus wrote his Against Heresies probably around AD 180. Irenaeus himself introduced error but say 150 years after Christ,,, lots of error.

If you look at Revelation ch 2&3 there is enough error to warrant comment. If you place that book at AD 95 or so that would be 90 years before Irenaeus. Paul corrects error in the churches at an even earlier time. My personal opinion is that the organic church suffered from Gnostic and other like influences at a very early time, probably even before the Apostles had all died. But there wasn't enough popular outrage until the 16th century to cause a revolt.

Further to that my opinion is that the reformation fixed some wrongs but didn't go far enough as much of the protestant groups today still practice a salvation that requires at least some works. Most likely reform will be needed on a continual basis until the Lord returns.
 
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Julian of Norwich

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Many of the responses to the OP center around the concept that somehow one particular branch of Christianity has maintained constant rules for worship or government and is thus a more pure version off what the NT envisions the church should be.

The problem is of course had the 16th century reformers seen a reflection of NT practices in any of the non-Roman Orthodox churches then it is likely that most modern protestant groups would look a lot like Orthodox churches. But they don't, rather the product of the early reformation looks more like Rome than Orthodox.

Here is the best response:


Irenaeus wrote his Against Heresies probably around AD 180. Irenaeus himself introduced error but say 150 years after Christ,,, lots of error.

If you look at Revelation ch 2&3 there is enough error to warrant comment. If you place that book at AD 95 or so that would be 90 years before Irenaeus. Paul corrects error in the churches at an even earlier time. My personal opinion is that the organic church suffered from Gnostic and other like influences at a very early time, probably even before the Apostles had all died. But there wasn't enough popular outrage until the 16th century to cause a revolt.

Further to that my opinion is that the reformation fixed some wrongs but didn't go far enough as much of the protestant groups today still practice a salvation that requires at least some works. Most likely reform will be needed on a continual basis until the Lord returns.


I would agree with you on many points, however as I am personally acquainted with three of the churches I would say that of those that I am familiar with that none of them have the central authority as does the Roman church. Anglicans have bishops (the bishops of the Orthodox Church are referred to as patriarchs) and there is no central authority (the Archbishop of Canterbury has no authority except to call meetings and to chair them - the Orthodox recognized the primacy, not supremacy, of the bishop of Rome), some synods of Lutheranism have Apostolic Succession, but they have no central authority. In fact, if you read Luther's writings he admires the Orthodox Church, however communication and distance at that time precluded him from knowing enough about them to follow their "set-up". I would imagine that may very well be true of many of the early reformers.
 
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thomas15

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central authority. In fact, if you read Luther's writings he admires the Orthodox Church, however communication and distance at that time precluded him from knowing enough about them to follow their "set-up". I would imagine that may very well be true of many of the early reformers.

Very good.

I have actually read Luther extensively. I think he was aware of Orthodox practices. But he in my opinion really wasn't trying to revolt against Rome, at least in the beginning stages. And this is one of the reasons why early Lutheranism looks so much like Rome. All of the feasts and Liturgy and so forth. That modern Lutheransim has been hijacked by liberal thinking is not Luther's fault. It is difficult today to comprehend that Luther's initial complaint, a complaint he wasn't really trying to take public, revolved around a comparatively minor practice of Rome, namely the sale of indulgences. It wasn't the prominence of Tradition, Mary, Popes, and all that, no, it was the sale of indulgences that got Luther's attention.

But Luther saw clearly in the Bible what we call today the priesthood of the believer, that the believer can take his petitions directly to the Father without a mediator except Jesus. Once you get to that position Biblically then a "primacy" and it's associated heiarchy becomes difficult to maintain. With Rome it serves a purpose, the sinner goes to the priest who dispenses grace which the sinner wants. But Luther couldn't find the role of the priest in the NT assembly but he still insisted on formal confessions and so forth which are not necessary when one has their own copy of the Bible.

I don't want to take away from any of the reformers as they exhibited much courage to take on the establishment. Still, I think the reformation was a good start but just a start.
 
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Ignatius the Kiwi

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What is your standard for determining truth? And do you have a fairly complete understanding of the Scriptures?
That goes beyond the nature of this thread. I'm merely asking what errors Irenaeus committed. Even if you can show just one.
 
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thomas15

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That goes beyond the nature of this thread. I'm merely asking what errors Irenaeus committed. Even if you can show just one.

I'm answering this in response to and in the context of the OP question: At what point can Protestants say the early/medieval church is not our church?

He (Ignatius) is credited with being the first to state as doctrine the theory of apostolic sucession and thus gave the bishops the unique authority and gift to be the only persons able correctly interpret Scripture. Included in this is the theory of unbroken apostolic sucession and extra-biblical tradition.

So if an individual has a weak view of Scripture (or maybe better stated high view of tradition) and/or a non-biblical standard to which he/she uses to determine truth then that individual may not see any problem with his teachings. This theory alone in my estimation was essential for giving the organic church the authority it needed to organize itself into and lay claim to an episcopal polity which achieved it's all-encompassing temporal power in the middle ages.

Please keep in mind that the individual has the right to believe, worship and even be offended as they choose. That freedom of choice however does not make any or all choices correct as far as God is concerned. Included in that statement is anything I might hold as a belief.
 
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Albion

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He (Ignatius) is credited with being the first to state as doctrine the theory of apostolic sucession and thus gave the bishops the unique authority and gift to be the only persons able correctly interpret Scripture.
You're not saying, I hope, that you think Apostolic Succession confers infallibility upon the bishops involved...or, for that matter, the right to make doctrine on their own. (?)
 
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thomas15

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You're not saying, I hope, that you think Apostolic Succession confers infallibility upon the bishops involved...or, for that matter, the right to make doctrine on their own. (?)

What I'm saying, and it is clear as day, is that Ignatius was the fist person of standing to teach apostolic succession. I was asked for an example of where he introduced error into church, this in response to the question "At what point can Protestants say the early/medieval church is not our church?"

Regardless of an individuals personal feelings on the succession issue there are (at least) two things that can be said about it. The first is that it is not taught in the Bible and the second is that it eventually lead to a 1000+ period of time where private interpretation of the Scriptures and for that matter private ownership of the Scriptures was not allowed.
 
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Albion

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What I'm saying, and it is clear as day, is that Ignatius was the fist person of standing to teach apostolic succession.
Well, I was not challenging that statement. It was the other claim that looked like a certain perspective on the meaning of Apostolic Succession which, if that is what you did mean, would be incorrect.

Regardless of an individuals personal feelings on the succession issue there are (at least) two things that can be said about it. The first is that it is not taught in the Bible
It may be argued (and is) that it was acted out and understood among Christ and his Apostles as we see in the New Testament.

land the second is that it eventually lead to a 1000+ period of time where private interpretation of the Scriptures and for that matter private ownership of the Scriptures was not allowed.
So are you claiming that Apostolic Succession is believed by the churches which have it that this confers infallibility, etc. on those bishops or grants them the right to create doctrine??
 
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thomas15

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I think I have been quite clear on this matter. The Bible doesn't teach succession and those who went all in on it were at the heart of the period of time in history where the Scriptures were forbidden to the people. I cannot say for sure what percentage of the succession was the cause of all that it could have been minor or it could have been a lot but for a 1000 or so years the average individual was forced to pay tithes and support but not allowed to read or own a Bible.

Granted today there are many who are happy to get everything they know about the Scriptures from their Bishops. I have family members that go to church 100s of times per year but don't own a Bible and have no desire to read or study a Bible. I have one relative who has informed me that she wouldn't consider studying a Bible with any person that had less than a masters degree in theology.

I believe in freedom of religion and individual soul liberty but the facts of history are the facts.

It may be argued (and is) that it was acted out and understood among Christ and his Apostles as we see in the New Testament.

^^^It could be argued in my opinion with a higher degree of probable truth that Christ and the Apostles would have been at the minimum disappointed to know that the church leadership decided to keep the Bible and essential doctrine away from the people for many centuries.
 
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Julian of Norwich

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the church leadership decided to keep the Bible and essential doctrine away from the people for many centuries.


Please note (and I'm sure you're aware of this) that for many centuries copies of the Bible were very few (as the printing press was yet to be invented) and that the common man was often illiterate.
 
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Ignatius the Kiwi

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I'm answering this in response to and in the context of the OP question: At what point can Protestants say the early/medieval church is not our church?

He (Ignatius) is credited with being the first to state as doctrine the theory of apostolic sucession and thus gave the bishops the unique authority and gift to be the only persons able correctly interpret Scripture. Included in this is the theory of unbroken apostolic sucession and extra-biblical tradition.

So if an individual has a weak view of Scripture (or maybe better stated high view of tradition) and/or a non-biblical standard to which he/she uses to determine truth then that individual may not see any problem with his teachings. This theory alone in my estimation was essential for giving the organic church the authority it needed to organize itself into and lay claim to an episcopal polity which achieved it's all-encompassing temporal power in the middle ages.

Please keep in mind that the individual has the right to believe, worship and even be offended as they choose. That freedom of choice however does not make any or all choices correct as far as God is concerned. Included in that statement is anything I might hold as a belief.

I think you are inferring to Ignatius views he never espoused. While it is true Ignatius lauded the role and position of the Bishop, where did he say only the Bishop can interpret scripture? Ignatius would suggest rather that to be part of the Church one requires a Bishop because he is the spiritual authority God has placed over us. I would also suggest while Apostolic succession naturally follows from the Ignatian corpus but he himself didn't lay out the idea explicitly. That would come more with Irenaeus later in the second century.

While it is extra-biblical, it is not contrary to scripture mind you, so how does it count as a mistake?

There are some strange consequences of what you're saying mind you. If the episcopalian nature of the church at such a period was a major mistake, in that sola scriptura effectively didn't exist, this would imply that the Church was immediately corrupted in the second century no? Would you agree with my earlier post about this where I suggested just that?

^^^It could be argued in my opinion with a higher degree of probable truth that Christ and the Apostles would have been at the minimum disappointed to know that the church leadership decided to keep the Bible and essential doctrine away from the people for many centuries.

How was the bible kept away from the people except in that full biblical manuscripts were expensive and beyond the means of the common peasant to attain or even read?
 
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