Salvationism, Christianity as an idealogy

Pavel Mosko

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I've been working on doing some kind of web series on the theme of Christianity as a "Journey of Faith". On that general theme, the first topic scheduled to be covered revolves around some unhappy experiences attending some Christian parochial schools. Looking back, I believe that some Christians see their faith as a kind of ideology, essentially an ideology that saves their soul via professing(or knowing) the right doctrine about salvation, works etc. at the time of death, but its one that sort of allows them to something of a misanthrope, or Pharisee providing they avoiding saying or perhaps doing certain things (based on very specific Bible passages) that might break their "salvation warranty" so to speak.

So I'm curious what do you think? Is this a thing? Or how common or rare is it? Etc.
 

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I've been working on doing some kind of web series on the theme of Christianity as a "Journey of Faith". On that general theme, the first topic scheduled to be covered revolves around some unhappy experiences attending some Christian parochial schools. Looking back, I believe that some Christians see their faith as a kind of ideology, essentially an ideology that saves their soul via professing(or knowing) the right doctrine about salvation, works etc. at the time of death, but its one that sort of allows them to something of a misanthrope, or Pharisee providing they avoiding saying or perhaps doing certain things (based on very specific Bible passages) that might break their "salvation warranty" so to speak.

So I'm curious what do you think? Is this a thing? Or how common or rare is it? Etc.
So the Holy Spirit can be broken?
 
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Pavel Mosko

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So the Holy Spirit can be broken?


I would not put it that way, but the fact you have twisted the OP to fit that sort of message makes me thinks that perhaps I have gored a sacred cow.... :)
 
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So the Holy Spirit can be broken?
True Christianity is total faith in the Person of Christ, nothing less. Anyone can put on a Christian badge and do all the Christian things, and believe it all. The devil can put on a Christian robe and attend church along with everyone, and he and his demons believe every word of the Bible; but they cannot have faith in the Person of Christ, because that is not given to them.

So a person can be totally steeped in Christian ideology, but if his faith and trust is not in the Person of Christ, then he is not even in the ball park as far as God is concerned.
 
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Gregory Thompson

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I would not put it that way, but the fact you have twisted the OP to fit that sort of message makes me thinks that perhaps I have gored a sacred cow.... :)
Nah, I was just replying to the broken warranty thing.

Guess it wasn't all that clever. hehe
 
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Gregory Thompson

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True Christianity is total faith in the Person of Christ, nothing less. Anyone can put on a Christian badge and do all the Christian things, and believe it all. The devil can put on a Christian robe and attend church along with everyone, and he and his demons believe every word of the Bible; but they cannot have faith in the Person of Christ, because that is not given to them.

So a person can be totally steeped in Christian ideology, but if his faith and trust is not in the Person of Christ, then he is not even in the ball park as far as God is concerned.
Born again by the Holy Spirit is where it's at.

Ideology is so old testament.
 
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I've been working on doing some kind of web series on the theme of Christianity as a "Journey of Faith". On that general theme, the first topic scheduled to be covered revolves around some unhappy experiences attending some Christian parochial schools. Looking back, I believe that some Christians see their faith as a kind of ideology, essentially an ideology that saves their soul via professing(or knowing) the right doctrine about salvation, works etc. at the time of death, but its one that sort of allows them to something of a misanthrope, or Pharisee providing they avoiding saying or perhaps doing certain things (based on very specific Bible passages) that might break their "salvation warranty" so to speak.

So I'm curious what do you think? Is this a thing? Or how common or rare is it? Etc.
This is a great thread topic. Thanks for starting it. I came to faith after having a 'born again' experience, so my experience was more emotional, and not intellectual like ideology implies. I was lost, a Christian friend, the last in a series, preached the truth to me over several weeks. I was willing to believe anything but the truth, but the Spirit confirmed that truth so unequivocally through what unbelievers describe as coincidences that I could no longer deny it, then something happened and I was changed forever from within. I later had the undeniable urge to become baptized. This all happened outside of church or any denomination. This is why I struggle with legalism and ideology. It wasn't part of my coming to faith experience.
 
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This is a great thread topic. Thanks for starting it. I came to faith after having a 'born again' experience, so my experience was more emotional, and not intellectual like ideology implies. I was lost, a Christian friend, the last in a series, preached the truth to me over several weeks. I was willing to believe anything but the truth, but the Spirit confirmed that truth so unequivocally through what unbelievers describe as coincidences that I could no longer deny it, then something happened and I was changed forever from within. I later had the undeniable urge to become baptized. This all happened outside of church or any denomination. This is why I struggle with legalism and ideology. It wasn't part of my coming to faith experience.
True faith is based on the bare written salvation promises in the Bible, which direct us to direct our faith to the Person of Christ.

I can understand that if your conversion was just an emotional experience, once the emotion died down, your conversion would probably die with it, because anything that is based on emotion is subject to emotion. That is why many professing Christians who do base their faith in emotional experiences believe they are saved one day and lost the next, because of the changeable nature of their emotions.

But God's word never changes. It is true whether you feel it or not. Experiences may be the icing on the cake, but they are not the cake. If you base your faith on what is written in the Bible about coming to Christ, trusting in Him, and receiving Him as Saviour and Lord, then your faith is based on a rock which can never be moved. But basing faith on the shifting sands of emotion, experiences, miracles, respected mentors, other than the Person of Christ, will lead to a trainwreck of faith as soon as problems arise, persecution comes, sickness happens, and church people fail you. Think of how many shipwrecks of faith happened when some big-name preacher was exposed in a scandal and was discredited.
 
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Experiences may be the icing on the cake, but they are not the cake. If you base your faith on what is written in the Bible about coming to Christ, trusting in Him, and receiving Him as Saviour and Lord, then your faith is based on a rock which can never be moved.
Thanks. I probably didn't explain it adequately. I was changed permanently from the trusting in Him that that change produced the unspeakable joy. I didn't put my faith in some temporary emotional experience. Joy was just what filled me up after the conversion moment. Relief too, for finding .forgiveness. That was several years ago. The seeds took root.He rescued me. How am I supposed to feel?
 
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Thanks. I probably didn't explain it adequately. I was changed permanently from the trusting in Him that that change produced the unspeakable joy. I didn't put my faith in some temporary emotional experience. Joy was just what filled me up after the conversion moment. Relief too, for finding .forgiveness. That was several years ago. The seeds took root.He rescued me. How am I supposed to feel?
Good to hear! :)
 
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Looking back, I believe that some Christians see their faith as a kind of ideology, essentially an ideology that saves their soul via professing(or knowing) the right doctrine about salvation, works etc. at the time of death, but its one that sort of allows them to something of a misanthrope, or Pharisee providing they avoiding saying or perhaps doing certain things (based on very specific Bible passages) that might break their "salvation warranty" so to speak.

So I'm curious what do you think? Is this a thing? Or how common or rare is it? Etc.

What you are observing is the result of a very specific altar call, decision based theology that became popular in the Evangelical and Pentecostal movements in 20th century America. Hell insurance, if you will. "Come forward based on an emotional appeal and do business with God!" Know for certain that you're once saved, always saved and are going to heaven!

If you look at the history of Christianity, the faith was something very different to those believers who went before us.
 
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What you are observing is the result of a very specific altar call, decision based theology that became popular in the Evangelical and Pentecostal movements in 20th century America. Hell insurance, if you will. "Come forward based on an emotional appeal and do business with God!" Know for certain that you're once saved, always saved and are going to heaven!

If you look at the history of Christianity, the faith was something very different to those believers who went before us.
The Puritan view, which I consider is the most Scriptural, is that before a person can really put their whole trust in Christ and see the gospel as good news, they need to be brought to the place where they clearly see themselves as lost sinners deserving of hell, and there is absolutely nothing they can do about it. It is then that they really do start crying out to God for mercy and forgiveness, and they are led, by the Holy Spirit to Christ and given "saving faith" to put their whole trust in Him. Those are the ones who remain in the faith for their whole lives because they see themselves as "poor sinners and nothing at all, but Jesus Christ is their all in all".

Those who come through the gate of easy believerism often fall away when problems arise and persecution happens. This is because they don't have that strong foundation of faith in Christ that comes from the sense of conviction that show that they are totally helpless and hopeless without Christ.

So, there is a difference between those who get religion as a hobby to have as long as it it suits them and is enjoyable, and those who come to Christ in true repentance and faith knowing that He is the only One who has the words of eternal life for them.
 
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What you are observing is the result of a very specific altar call, decision based theology that became popular in the Evangelical and Pentecostal movements in 20th century America. Hell insurance, if you will. "Come forward based on an emotional appeal and do business with God!" Know for certain that you're once saved, always saved and are going to heaven!

If you look at the history of Christianity, the faith was something very different to those believers who went before us.
What about the woman who dried the feet of Jesus with her hair? Or the one who touched his robe. Was that a 'come forward' faith and was it that different than someone responding in sincerity to an altar call after feeling His presence among 2 or 3 gathered in His name?
 
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Gregory Thompson

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One thing I find helpful is in the born again frame of view, the actual growth from trusting Trinity God day by day.

The ideas are helpful as "seeds" but there are good seeds and bad seeds as the bible says.
 
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I've been working on doing some kind of web series on the theme of Christianity as a "Journey of Faith". On that general theme, the first topic scheduled to be covered revolves around some unhappy experiences attending some Christian parochial schools. Looking back, I believe that some Christians see their faith as a kind of ideology, essentially an ideology that saves their soul via professing(or knowing) the right doctrine about salvation, works etc. at the time of death, but its one that sort of allows them to something of a misanthrope, or Pharisee providing they avoiding saying or perhaps doing certain things (based on very specific Bible passages) that might break their "salvation warranty" so to speak.

So I'm curious what do you think? Is this a thing? Or how common or rare is it? Etc.

There are many ways of defining ideology, and the one I formulated, unless someone did it before me, is that an ideology is a reaction to a problem.

So if the problem is economical, political, ecological, philosophical or religious, one can have different economical, political, ecological. philosophical or religious reactions to it.

For example, economic inequality sprouts left wing or right wing ideologies. Intelligent and strong people should not have the right to corner precious resource versus the idea that fair effort should result in fair return, the right to gather resources commensurate with that effort. Since everyone is affected by the problem, everyone holds an ideology, an opinion about the solution.

In religious situations, the problem presented seems to be the afterlife, and reactions to it are generally that good people will have a positive experience, and the bad, a negative one. In other words, the problem and its solutions appeal only to theists.

However Paul believed his solution would appeal to even Epicureans and Stoics, basically atheists, or at most deists, who don't believe in appropriate consequences of life style faced in the afterlife. In fact, Israel herself did not have any doctrine, view on afterlife, until after being exposed to it during the Babylon exile. Till date, there is no halakha, doctrine that must be adhered to, to remain orthodox, not be heretics, about afterlife. You are free to hold any view.

So what was worrying the denizens of the ANE (Ancient Near East)? Its a problem that crops up in every worldview. In fact, if a person takes time to reflect, the problem is bound to raise its ugly head, and it is the conclusion that everything seems to be meaningless. Philosophers, using logic and reason, in fact conclude that it is so. The Epicureans and the Stoics developed their own answers to the problem. Paul offered them an alternative.

He told them what men were, ontologically, and why they needed to be good.
 
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Pavel Mosko

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What you are observing is the result of a very specific altar call, decision based theology that became popular in the Evangelical and Pentecostal movements in 20th century America. Hell insurance, if you will. "Come forward based on an emotional appeal and do business with God!" Know for certain that you're once saved, always saved and are going to heaven!

If you look at the history of Christianity, the faith was something very different to those believers who went before us.


The initial inspiration of the topic actually was my 4th grade teacher when I was attending the Lutheran church run by my church at the time. A few years later, I would also see similar things while attending a school run by the local Southern Baptists.

But my 4th grade teacher had something up with her. Like maybe she didn't like children (she was probably in her late 30s early 40s in the time married but had none). Or she had something like Asperger's, etc.

She was good at correcting you on little things. Like one day we were singing the Mr. Potato head song from the toy commercial but altered the lyrics (because we found it annoying) where we sang that we hated Mr. Potato head (jokingly) so she was very quick to put a stop to that treating it seriously mentioning what the Bible says on hate etc. But she didn't quite seem to realize that our actions and our demeanor also convey messages. And some of them could be very troubling.

There was this time, I was sick and was out of school for a few days and my parents even took me into the hospital to get checked out. It was Strep Throat. Unlike other times, my friends etc. didn't inform me of what was going on in the class. So I came back to a surprise test. I bitterly protested it since it wasn't fair to me, but she argued how things wouldn't be fair to the other children if I was given time to take it later etc. She didn't want to make a separate test just for me and was concerned that somehow I would cheat or gain an unfair advantage in the situation. At the time, I knew this was screwed up and that only got more clear when I actually went to public school later in high school and learned that giving make up tests to sick kids is no big deal and considered par for the course.

But in my later years this sort of thing would stick in my craw. Because at that time, I began questioning Faith etc. There are lots of saying that adults used on kids like "the proof is in the pudding" (When adult is unsure if a kid will keep their word etc.). But that sort of thing is a two way street. I can say that in my early life, I heard a lot about Agape (unconditional love) but saw little of it which might make one wonder if this is just some kind of empty slogan, or extreme ideal that is never actually actualized. And what made matters worse is that many of the best people that I looked up to (other than my parents) in later life were not actually Christian (that I know of). There were people for instance in the martial arts, that were far more patient when working with a person that was challenged in some way (coordination problems etc.) than their Christian counter parts (I've had lots of various problems with coordination, vision, learning disabilities where this really stands out for me).


Now I know what the typical Christian response to some of this sort of thing is. People like to talk about Satanic/Worldly counterfeits (when I talk about being helped by certain ideas and people when I left Christianity for a few years). But I can actually make a pretty good traditional Christian argument (based on Imago Dei) that the phenomenon shows a deficiency in certain people's understanding of the Faith. Technically speaking it would be what some would call Theosis or Christofication.

 
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Pavel Mosko

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There are many ways of defining ideology, and the one I formulated, unless someone did it before me, is that an ideology is a reaction to a problem.

Yeah I was kind of expecting this sort of reaction especially when I decided to Google the definition to see what the formal one is. I sort of deliberately used the colloquial one that has negative connotations of various "Isms" deliberately as a kind of short hand.


But yes the formal definition is just something basic like a system of ideas. So yes there are ideological elements to Christianity (or in some sense it is an ideology). Or better yet, I prefer to say that unlike the popular slogan "Christianity is not a religion but a relationship!" that I'm fine contradicting it. In other words, I do not see relationship and religion as being necessarily contradictory or incompatible and saint James seems to agree with that (James 1:27). This is particularly becomes true if you accept the definition of religion by some folks like Joseph Campbell who believes the word comes from two Latin words for to link or to join something (In this case it is the desire for people to be linked or have a relationship with the Creator God). And I got to say, Paul in the Book of Acts speaking about altar of the unknown god on Mars Hill seems to have a similar conception of things.

 
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Yeah I was kind of expecting this sort of reaction especially when I decided to Google the definition to see what the formal one is. I sort of deliberately used the colloquial one that has negative connotations of various "Isms" deliberately as a kind of short hand.


But yes the formal definition is just something basic like a system of ideas. So yes there are ideological elements to Christianity (or in some sense it is an ideology). Or better yet, I prefer to say that unlike the popular slogan "Christianity is not a religion but a relationship!" that I'm fine contradicting it. In other words, I do not see relationship and religion as being necessarily contradictory or incompatible and saint James seems to agree with that (James 1:27). This is particularly becomes true if you accept the definition of religion by some folks like Joseph Campbell who believes the word comes from two Latin words for to link or to join something (In this case it is the desire for people to be linked or have a relationship with the Creator God). And I got to say, Paul in the Book of Acts speaking about altar of the unknown god on Mars Hill seems to have a similar conception of things.
Ah! You mean the reformed reaction to good works necessary to escape hell, experienced by you in your school years. Basically, they believe that you don't need to do good works since salvation is based on faith. Then they act like non believers in their daily lives.

Actually, both the RCC and reformed believe in the necessity for good works, the former, as a condition for salvation, and the second, as a result of salvation. The last is a little complicated. If you don't feel like doing good works, then you are not saved. But then, how do you explain your belief in faith alone? Isn't that the mark of a true believer? They conclude that their belief wasn't the right kind, else they would actually feel like doing good works. So what do they do? Some actually wait for the real call. Most fake it, do good works even when they don't spontaneously feel the impulse to do so. They figure that doing it that way is better than nothing. Although they don't realize they are faking it,until they sit down and analyse the process.

So no, your teacher was really an aberration when she refused to give you the make up test. Both the RCC and the Reformed feel the need for good works, just with different reasons,the first to get saved and the second, to prove they are saved. So the results are the same, good works appear in both their lives. You should have seen good works.

When Assurance Is Not Assurance
By Bob Wilkins

Quote
Dr. R. C. Sproul is a very articulate spokesman for the view that assurance is not certainty. A few years back he described his own struggles with assurance, and in so doing he explained his view of assurance:

There are people in this world who are not saved, but who are convinced that they are. The presence of such people causes genuine Christians to doubt their salvation. After all, we wonder, suppose I am in that category? Suppose I am mistaken about my salvation and am really going to hell? How can I know that I am a real Christian?

A while back I had one of those moments of acute self-awareness that we have from time to time, and suddenly the question hit me: "R.C., what if you are not one of the redeemed? What if your destiny is not heaven after all, but hell?" Let me tell you that I was flooded in my body with a chill that went from my head to the bottom of my spine. I was terrified.

I tried to grab hold of myself. I thought, "Well, it's a good sign that I'm worried about this. Only true Christians really care about salvation." But then I began to take stock of my life, and I looked at my performance. My sins came pouring into my mind, and the more I looked at myself, the worse I felt. I thought, "Maybe it's really true. Maybe I'm not saved after all."

I went to my room and began to read the Bible. On my knees I said, "Well, here I am. I can't point to my obedience. There's nothing I can offer. I can only rely on Your atonement for my sins. I can only throw myself on Your mercy." Even then I knew that some people only flee to the Cross to escape hell, not out of a real turning to God. I could not be sure about my own heart and motivation. Then I remembered John 6:68. Jesus had been giving out hard teaching, and many of His former followers had left Him. When He asked Peter if he was also going to leave, Peter said, "Where else can I go? Only You have the words of eternal life." In other words, Peter was also uncomfortable, but he realized that being uncomfortable with Jesus was better than any other option!

Also read:

I Discovered Another Calvinist Who Conceded He's Not Sure | Grace Evangelical Society
 
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