Original Sin

Both definitions seem to be very similar. Yes, from Adam onward, all of us are born into sin. However, “original sin” did not start with Adam and Eve.

Sin occurred first in the spirit realm before its introduction on earth. Disruption came through a spirit creature referred to simply as Satan the Devil (Resister, Adversary). (Revelation 12:9) Hence, the apostle John says: “He who carries on sin originates with the Devil, because the Devil has been sinning from the beginning.” John 3:8.

By “the beginning” John clearly means the beginning of Satan’s career of opposition. Since cultivation of wrong desire to the point of fertility precedes the ‘birth of sin’ (James 1:14, 15), this spirit creature who turned “resister” had already begun to deviate from righteousness, had experienced disaffection toward God, prior to the actual manifestation of sin and sin with humans.

John’s words show that, once having introduced sin, Satan continued his sinful course. Hence, any person that “makes sin his business or practice” reveals himself to be a “child” of the Adversary, spiritual offspring reflecting the qualities of his “father.”-John 8:44; 1 John 3:10.

Jonaitis said:

Do you believe in original sin?

It is understood that not all are in agreement as to what this means. Some say that as a direct result of Adam's fall, we are born sinful. While others say that as a direct result of Adam's fall, we are both sinful by nature and condemned in God's sight; that we share in the guilt and corruption of our first parent, being united to him as our federal head who represented the whole human race.

"Therefore, as one trespass led to condemnation for all men, so one act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all men. For as by the one man's disobedience the many were made sinners, so by the one man's obedience the many will be made righteous." - Romans 5:18-19

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My understanding is that we are not born with a changed or "sin nature" as a result of OS but with something lacking, actually, namely the relationship with God that man was made for, the relationship that Adam dismissed and shattered with his act of disobedience. We lost the "knowledge of God" the "immediate knowledge" that Jesus would later come to fully reveal and restore when the time was ripe, when the world was finally ready. And that loss constitutes our spiritual death, and a complete change in man's world.

However, with that knowledge and grace and our finally coming to recognize our need for God in this world where the master's effectively gone away, man can again come to believe in and ultimately to love Him. This love is the essence of man's justice or righteousness which is why the Greatest Commandment is what it is. And the relationship or communion with God that can then produce this state of justice, where man lives and obeys by the Spirit, under grace, comes by faith. To the extent that we firmly remain in this relationship, that we love, sin is excluded and the law is fulfilled by its nature. The reason that man lacks moral integrity, that he cannot obey, is because of this severed relationship: "Apart from Me you can do nothing." John 15:5

"Now this is eternal life: that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent." John 17:3

And to know God is to love Him. The question for us is always whether or not we even truly want to know Him, to know the Truth, or instead want to continue preferring our own way, our own "godhood", a rebellion that Adam initiated us into.

Psalms 51:5 Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, and in sin did my mother conceive me.

Romans 8 says the whole creation groans under this curse. The reason there is disintegration, death, and sin in the entire universe can be traced right back to Genesis chapter 3.

Jonaitis said:

I think this falls under the second definition. We have lost fellowship with God and a right standing before him through Adam's transgression.

Do you believe that we are sinless at birth, but separated from God through Adam?

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Because we are born to this world disconnected from God, we have the original sin at birth.

ewq1938 said:

Psa 51:5 Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.

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From a contrite sinner's prayer for pardon—applicable to all man. We sing it and pray it— it's from God's word to all man.

ewq1938 said:

Luckily that is not what is written.

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There is no luck. There is the will of God and His providence...

ewq1938 said:

A third issue would be whether David is even correct or if he is exaggerating

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All scripture is inspired by God. God is not man, that he should lie, or a son of man, that he should change his mind.

Paul says we are born dead in trespasses and sins. Death is universal. We all die, everybody dies. If there is a universal effect then there is a universal cause. The universal cause is the total depravity of man, because we all sinned in Adam. Our depravity is not the result of our sins; it is the result of Adam's sins and we sinning in Adam as the human race in his own loins. How depraved is man?

• Psalms 51:5 Behold, I was shaped in iniquity, and in sin did my mother conceive me.

From the beginning, from conception forward, I was shaped in iniquity. The sin principle:

• Psalms 58:3 The wicked are estranged from the womb.

From the time of the womb there is already estrangement from God.

• Jeremiah 17:9 The heart of man is deceitful and desperately wicked.
• Job 14:4 Who can bring a clean thing out of an unclean?

Job 15 says:

• What is man that he should be clean?
• Who is born of a woman that he should be righteous?

How much more abominable and filthy is man, "who drinketh iniquity like water?" From the very start, man is sinful, and therefore death is operative as a principle, and as soon as he gets into life and gets old enough, he will inevitably, what? Sin.

Romans 8 says the whole creation groans under this curse. The reason we see disintegration, death, and sin in the entire universe can be traced right back to Genesis 3.

Original Sin exist even if you deny believing in original sin, there would be no need for a Savior if you original sin did not exist!

luze said:

Original Sin exist even if you deny believing in original sin, there would be no need for a Savior if you original sin did not exist!

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There may be some misunderstanding here. "Original Sin" refers to the sin that is inherited by all descendants of Adam and Eve. The ones that we commit on our own are caller, by contrast, "Actual Sins."

Jonaitis said:

True, but actual sin stems from original sin. Christ didn't die for particulars, he died for the whole sum of what sin deserves. He died for our original sin that all actual sin proceeds from. It is sin, not sins, that Christ suffered on the cross for.

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All I was saying there is that when we are using these terms in discussion, particularly Original Sin, it obviously helps if everyone means the same thing by them.