How would you describe saving faith vs just "faith"?
- Thread starter zoidar
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Can you say that you love your wife and not do anything loving for her?
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- Jul 22, 2014
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Because we are not mindless robots, and George Sodini killed a bunch of people and took his own life because of Faith Alone-ism. We are told to endure, keep ourselves in the love of God, continue in his goodness, continue in the faith, continue in God's grace, etc.
But just doing good works is not really enough as we see in Matthew 7:23. The believers did good works, but they also did evil works, too. Jesus said to them to depart from Him because they worked iniquity. In other words, we truly do have to live holy in this life. Hebrews 12:14 says without holiness, no man shall see the Lord. Paul says if any man does not agree with the doctrine according to godliness, he is proud and he knows nothing (1 Timothy 6:3-4).
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- Jul 22, 2014
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We cannot justify sin under God's grace (Jude 1:4). He that confesses and forsakes sin shall have mercy (Proverbs 28:13) (Also see 1 John 1:9, and 1 John 1:7). For shall we continue in sin so that grace may abound? God forbid (Romans 6:1). By what some folks have told me, they think they can continue in sin and grace will still abound. But grace reigns (rules) in righteousness (righteous living) (Romans 5:21); Also see Ephesians 5:25-27, and Titus 2:11-12.
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How to make Jews jealous, like Nicodemus was jealous of Christ:
John 3
1Now there was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews; 2this man came to Jesus by night and said to Him, “Rabbi, we know that You have come from God as a teacher; for no one can do these signs that You do unless God is with him.” 3Jesus answered and said to him, “Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God.”
Matthew 21
42Jesus said to them, “Have you never read in the Scriptures: ‘The stone the builders rejected has become the cornerstone. This is from the Lord, and it is marvelous in our eyes’? 43Therefore I tellyou that the kingdom of God will be taken away from you andgiven to a people who will produce its fruit.
The stone is the Way, preached by all the servants sent by God to the tenants of the vineyard, and by the Landowner's Son, to do selfless deeds so that God's great works would be displayed, to pick up a cross.
The goal is to make people follow God, to bear fruit, the rent owed to Him.
Israel thought that by doing works of the law, she would receive blessings and not curses, and motivate other nations to also do works of the law. This was how she thought she would be a Light unto the Nations.
However the Gospel is that people would be blessed by having faith, being loyal to God. That is what being IN Abraham means:
Galatians 3:6-9 (NASB) 6 Even so Abraham BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS RECKONED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS. 7 Therefore, be sure that it is those who are of faith who are sons of Abraham. 8 The Scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the Gentiles by faith, preached the gospel beforehand to Abraham, saying, "ALL THE NATIONS WILL BE BLESSED IN YOU." 9 So then those who are of faith are blessed with Abraham, the believer.
And the loyal act that Abraham did was doing a selfless thing so that God’s great work in saving would be manifested, because he saw how people began to fear God and give room for Him in their plans when they saw these works:
Hebrews 11
17By faith Abraham, when he was tested, offered up Isaac, and he who had received the promises was offering up his only begotten son; 18it was he to whom it was said, “IN ISAAC YOUR DESCENDANTS SHALL BE CALLED.” 19He considered that God is able to raise people even from the dead, from which he also received him back as a type.
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The iniquity the false prophets of Matthew 7:23 did was in not bearing fruit.
Matthew 12
30He who is not with Me is against Me, and he who does not gather with Me scatters.
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- Jul 22, 2014
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To a certain extent, I agree. My point was that just because one does good works in Christ's name, it does not mean they are bearing good fruit from the vine (i.e. via by the Lord). These believers in Matthew 7:23 believed that they did good works, but it was not by the power of the Lord working in them. They also worked iniquity or sin, as well. Jesus said that a good tree cannot bring forth bad fruit (and vise versa). This bad fruit is sinful or evil works (obviously). Matthew 7:26-27 says that they did not do what Jesus says. This means that they were sinning in some way in Matthew 7:23. This is why Jesus did not know them, and why He said for them to depart from Him. They worked iniquity. Iniquity is sin. Sin can be the breaking of God's commands involving good works (Like: refusing to Preach the gospel, help the poor, love the brethren, etc.) or it can be the breaking of God's commands on abstaining from doing certain things (like do not murder, do not covet, etc.). For the KJV says, "for sin is the transgression of the law (i.e. God's commands) (1 John 3:4).
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Here is someone who does a deed in the power of the Holy Spirit, yet is a law breaker. The fault is scattering.
Deuteronomy 13
1“If a prophet or a dreamer of dreams arises among you and gives you a sign or a wonder,2and the sign or the wonder comes true, concerning which he spoke to you, saying, ‘Let us go after other gods (whom you have not known) and let us serve them,’ 3you shall not listen to the words of that prophet or that dreamer of dreams; for the LORD your God is testing you to find out if you love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul.4“You shall follow the LORD your God and fear Him; and you shall keep His commandments, listen to His voice, serve Him, and cling to Him.5“But that prophet or that dreamer of dreams shall be put to death, because he has counseled rebellion against the LORD your God who brought you from the land of Egypt and redeemed you from the house of slavery, to seduce you from the way in which the LORD your God commanded you to walk. So you shall purge the evil from among you.
.....
Numbers 20
8“Take the rod; and you and your brother Aaron assemble the congregation and speak to the rock before their eyes, that it may yield its water. You shall thus bring forth water for them out of the rock and let the congregation and their beasts drink.”
9So Moses took the rod from before the LORD, just as He had commanded him; 10and Moses and Aaron gathered the assembly before the rock. And he said to them, “Listen now, you rebels; shall we bring forth water for you out of this rock?” 11Then Moses lifted up his hand and struck the rock twice with his rod; and water came forth abundantly, and the congregation and their beasts drank. 12But the LORD said to Moses and Aaron, “Because you have not believed Me, to treat Me as holy in the sight of the sons of Israel, therefore you shall not bring this assembly into the land which I have given them.” 13Those were the waters of Meribah, because the sons of Israel contended with the LORD, and He proved Himself holy among them.
You don't even have to do anything. If you don't show God is to be followed, you are scattering. We are either for God or against Him. There is no middle ground.
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- Jul 22, 2014
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Obviouslly a Christian who follows the Lord is going to keep His commands. Those who break God's law are in sin (1 John 3:4). The example you give is a citation of the breaking God's laws (While under the Old Covenant). We are to keep God's laws under the New Covenant.
So in Matthew 7:23: Are you saying that iniquity is not sin?
That this iniquity does not include the breaking of New Covenant laws given to us by Jesus and His followers?
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aiki
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There are a couple of things I don't subscribe to in what you've offered as a description of my view. First, I don't think it is biblically accurate to say that faith alone saves. God is for more integral to my coming to a saving in faith in Christ than is my exercise of faith in him. (John 6:44; Romans 12:3; 2 Timothy 2:25; John 16:8) God draws the lost sinner to Christ; He imparts repentance to the lost; He gives the faith to believe to the lost; His Spirit convicts the lost of sin, and so on. It is not, then, that faith alone saves. Far from it. Now don't get me wrong: I don't hold to the Reform idea of unconditional election. The lost must - and, having heard the Gospel, are able to - choose to be saved.
Second, as I pointed out already, saving faith may exist apart from works. I cannot say, then, that "faith that saves is never alone." As I indicated, saving faith always precedes works and does not, then, have to exist simultaneous with corresponding works. This was the point I was making about the difference between inevitable and necessary. Not only are there some who believe who, like the thief on the cross, cannot manifest that belief in good works, but all believers must struggle through a process of change during which good works may be delayed for a time or appear with only stumbling intermittancy. Paul's first letter to the Corinthian believers offers an example of what I'm talking about. He wrote,
1 Corinthians 3:1-3
1 And I, brethren, could not speak to you as to spiritual people but as to carnal, as to babes in Christ.
2 I fed you with milk and not with solid food; for until now you were not able to receive it, and even now you are still not able;
3 for you are still carnal.
So, I cannot agree with your "logical form" of my view.
But here you aren't making room for what I explained about inevitable and necessary not always being synonymous.
See above. If one claims to have been saved and there is absolutely no manifestation whatever of one's spiritual regeneration in one's thinking, attitudes and behaviour, then one's claim is either false or there is something profoundly wrong with the spiritual growth process in one's life. An apple tree under circumstances void of disease, malnutrition, or damage, will inevitably bear fruit. But if for some reason the apple tree doesn't bear fruit, is it therefore not an apple tree? Of course not; it is an apple tree regardless of its fruit-bearing capacity. In fact, if the tree isn't in its DNA an apple tree, it cannot produce apples. The tree must first be an apple tree and only then can it bear apples. So, too, for the Christian. He must first be a Christian before he can bear Christian "fruit." But if he is suffering from spiritual immaturity or malnourishment, or is diseased spiritually by false teaching, or is damaged by tragedy, or suffering, or negative experiences within the Church, or, God forbid, all of these things, he may not bear the fruit he should. But this no more means he is not saved than a crippled apple tree that cannot bear apples is not, therefore, an apple tree.
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When we think of iniquity as immoral transgression, or holiness as moral compliance, we are distracted and may miss out the emphasis that Scripture plays on deeds that help to gather in God's lost sheep, by picking up a cross, not a moral deed.
1 Corinthians 13
3And if I give all my possessions to feed the poor, and if I surrender my body to be burned, but do not have love, it profits me nothing.
John 15
12“This is My commandment, that you love one another, just as I have loved you. 13“Greater love has no one than this, that one lay down his life for his friends.
When I post a view, I take a risk that it will be burnt and I will suffer loss, because someone may find out it's fault, and point it out, using Scripture. That's one way of picking up a cross and being raised up, daily, when God vindicates what is posted.
BTW, good catch on Acts of the Apostles being a record of all the acts the apostles did, even their mistakes . Besides, when James was overseeing the church in chapter 21, although it was written after the book of James (probably the first written teaching), the events it recorded happened before James was writing anything.
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yeshuaslavejeff
simple truth, martyr, disciple of Yahshua
This looks like deceptive distraction, difficult to understand as seen in the past, instead of honorably speaking the truth in line with all Scripture.
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yeshuaslavejeff
simple truth, martyr, disciple of Yahshua
??
Most gentiles remain lost, condemned already because of unbelief ...
If it is so 'easy' as you say, why do the majority of gentiles refuse to stop worshiping idols and demons ?
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Numbers 20
8“Take the rod; and you and your brother Aaron assemble the congregation and speak to the rock before their eyes, that it may yield its water. You shall thus bring forth water for them out of the rock and let the congregation and their beasts drink.”
9So Moses took the rod from before the LORD, just as He had commanded him; 10and Moses and Aaron gathered the assembly before the rock. And he said to them, “Listen now, you rebels; shall we bring forth water for you out of this rock?” 11Then Moses lifted up his hand and struck the rock twice with his rod; and water came forth abundantly, and the congregation and their beasts drank. 12But the LORD said to Moses and Aaron, “Because you have not believed Me, to treat Me as holy in the sight of the sons of Israel, therefore you shall not bring this assembly into the land which I have given them.” 13Those were the waters of Meribah, because the sons of Israel contended with the LORD, and He proved Himself holy among them.
Moses did two wrong acts.
In striking the Rock, he missed the opportunity to give a prophecy of how Israel would be saved, when she spoke to the Rock, instead of striking Him, as she first did, when she finally confesses, "Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord".
Luke 13
33“Nevertheless I must journey on today and tomorrow and the next day; for it cannot be that a prophet would perish outside of Jerusalem.34“O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the city that kills the prophets and stones those sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, just as a hen gathers her brood under her wings, and you would not have it! 35“Behold, your house is left to you desolate; and I say to you, you will not see Me until the time comes when you say, ‘BLESSED IS HE WHO COMES IN THE NAME OF THELORD!’”
In saying "Shall WE bring forth water" he missed out giving credit to God only, for doing great works that leads to people following God only. People don't get saved by following men!
And again, those who pick up the cross MUST preach repentance, turning from serving selfishness, to serving God. Even more infractious are those who do not even pick up the cross. All those whose acts of picking up the cross or lack of it and do not preach repentance, meta noia, change of mind, are like those who have their credits burnt, but they themselves will survive, but as through flames. It wasn't Moses or Peter who led into Rest, but Joshua and Paul.
Matthew 26
75And Peter remembered the word which Jesus had said, "Before a rooster crows, you will deny Me three times." And he went out and wept bitterly.
As I said, these are not moral infractions. Holiness transcends morality.
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Guojing
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If you are willing to say that saving faith may exists apart from works, then you cannot say works are inevitable after one is saved then.
I prefer to keep faith and works separated to avoid making circular arguments. Faith is believing in Jesus's death burial and resurrection. Works is what one do thru physical actions.
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