Autocephaly: OCA vs OCU-EP

AMM

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I came across the letter from Patriarch Athenagoras of Constantinople to Patriarch Pimen of Moscow on the granting of autocephaly to the OCA.

1970 Letter from Ecumenical Patriarch Athenagoras on Autocephaly - Orthodox History

In the letter, HAH Athenagoras writes some interesting things criticizing HE Pimen (and his predecessor, Alexis I) for such an action, saying some of the following things which I'll quote here, emphasis mine:

5. (...) it may be concluded that the granting of autocephaly is a right belonging to the Church as a whole, and cannot at all be considered a right of “each Autocephalous Church,” as is stated in the letter of Patriarch Alexis of blessed memory.

7. (...)
This same stamp of validity by an Ecumenical Synod is needed also, for their definitive and continuing autocephalous existence, by the newer autocephalous Churches because of the unfavorable circumstances in which they may at times find themselves. These include the Churches to which the Holy Apostolic and Patriarchal Ecumenical Throne gave the stamp of autocephaly with the approval of the other Orthodox Churches.
8. The Ecumenical Patriarchate could do this because of its attribute as the Mother Church and its status as the “First Among Equals” in reference to the other autocephalous Orthodox Churches, and because it is at the center of the internal unity of the entire Orthodox Church, helping the other Churches in their needs — a duty that derives from its presiding and excelling position within the family of the Orthodox Churches.

11. If, according to the above, it is uncanonical for a local Autocephalous Church to declare autocephalous a branch Church detached from its ecclesiastical realm, not only not comprising a component part of it, but also not having had a canonical relation to it or dependence on it — then how much more uncanonical would be such a declaration of autocephaly in reference to a Church completely outside of your boundaries.
The letter certainly says much more - it addresses the granting of autocephaly to Russia from Constantinople, the need for a Holy Council, etc. However, when I read this, I couldn't help but think about the situation in Ukraine, where the EP seems to be doing the same things that his predecessor criticized the Russians for, 50 years ago. Are there similarities between these two actions? Certainly, I know there are differences - one being that the OCU-EP is formed from groups that had been excommunicated by the MP - but a lot sounds like it could have been written by the MP to the EP in 2018, instead of the other way around (the EP writing to the MP in 1970).
 

peregrinus2017

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Way above my pay grade, as the saying goes. There does seem to be a sense of a double standard here. From the above it sounds like the Patriarch of Constantinople is claiming that ecumenism in the Orthodox Church resides or proceeds from the authority of his throne. I could very well be misinterpreting this, I hope so anyway. That is not at all what I have understood the word to mean in relation to the church. The one thing that I can definitely agree with and understand is the need for a Holy Council. Lord have mercy.
 
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All4Christ

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I tend to avoid thoughts like this as it only gives me frustration.

Autocephaly for a jurisdiction of the United States was the right move. All countries should be given the right to autocephaly as we are not all Russian, Greek, Serbian, Arabic, etc. But...as the above poster said - it is way above my paygrade. I still think however that saying it isn’t right unless the ecumenical patriarch approves isn’t the right thing to do. It should be the proper path for any country that has enough Orthodox to have their own jurisdiction. Essentially - like a “national mission” becoming a “national parish”. It should follow that same pattern. Certainly a pan-Orthodox council would be good, but that rarely seems to actually happen now.

But...that’s just my layperson opinion of it all. I’m thankful that we at least are considered to still be Orthodox by the Greek Church and that they haven’t excommunicated those who were part of the OCA, even if we aren’t considered to be a different jurisdiction than the Russian church.
 
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AMM

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I still think however that saying it isn’t right unless the ecumenical patriarch approves isn’t the right thing to do

That's a good point, but I'm not sure if I read it entirely that way. Maybe you're right though. I read it as, "look, this should be done with the approval of all the churches... and that includes the EP as the head and principle of unity" (which has flaws in its ecclesiology, in my opinion). Not so much as "the EP is the only one who can grant autocephaly". I sort of connected it to the Ukraine situation in the sense that Ukraine was:

EP: "hey we're going to grant you autocephaly"
MP: "you can't do that, that's not your territory and you need a council for that"

and the OCA situation was:
MP: "we're making an autocephalos church in the US"
EP: "um, no, you need a council and my approval for that, you can't do it on your own"

I do think this letter ascribes a high level of primacy to the EP (whether or not it's an appropriate level or if it's too high, that's far beyond me as a new convert), but I also think it is a very different sentiment being expressed than was expressed in 2018 with Ukraine. Like the EP is changing its stance on things, if that makes sense
 
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AMM

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But for sure, a council would be helpful. There's the whole USA situation, now there's Ukraine, and there's the Jerusalem-Antioch thing (although I'm under the impression, perhaps mistakenly, that that is less problematic than the other two nowadays). But that didn't work too well in Crete, it doesn't seem... Then again, St Gregory Nazianzus also thought that the 2nd Ecumenical Council was a complete disaster and a nightmare of bishops not cooperating, and it's still recognized as Ecumenical. So maybe it's just a matter of time before Crete gets a higher recognition, or another council works stuff out.
 
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All4Christ

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That's a good point, but I'm not sure if I read it entirely that way. Maybe you're right though. I read it as, "look, this should be done with the approval of all the churches... and that includes the EP as the head and principle of unity" (which has flaws in its ecclesiology, in my opinion). Not so much as "the EP is the only one who can grant autocephaly". I sort of connected it to the Ukraine situation in the sense that Ukraine was:

EP: "hey we're going to grant you autocephaly"
MP: "you can't do that, that's not your territory and you need a council for that"

and the OCA situation was:
MP: "we're making an autocephalos church in the US"
EP: "um, no, you need a council and my approval for that, you can't do it on your own"

I do think this letter ascribes a high level of primacy to the EP (whether or not it's an appropriate level or if it's too high, that's far beyond me as a new convert), but I also think it is a very different sentiment being expressed than was expressed in 2018 with Ukraine. Like the EP is changing its stance on things, if that makes sense
The reason I read it that way is due to the EP feeling like it was okay to grant autocephaly on his own. With that in mind, I read the “not having the stamp of approval” from the EP to be the higher priority in the write up regarding establishing the OCA.

In the case of the Ukrainian Orthodox Church, the EP is not only granting autocephaly, but autocephaly to a previously schismatic groups (I know I’m simplifying, but that’s the general gist).
 
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buzuxi02

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Even Constantinoples use of as "evidence" that it granted autocephaly to every other autocephalous church (outside of the original 4) is a concept of Ottomon Turkish origins not Roman/byzantine. As ethnarc of the Rum Orthodox he was the political "in charge guy" for the Rum dhimmi. As the empire crumbled and nation states were formed there was no longer a need for an ethnarc.
 
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