Am I a bad person because I don't believe in eternal hell?
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aiki
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This is an old and tired line that those who want to deny the doctrine of hell often use. It's been answered again and again. As far as I'm aware, "aionios" is used in the vast majority of its occurrences in the NT to refer to an eternal (never-ending) duration of time. 51 times "aionios" refers to the unending happiness of the righteous, 2 instances refer to the duration of God in His glory, and 7 appear in reference to the punishment of the wicked. While "aionios" may refer to a limited duration of time, in the NT it almost never has any other meaning than an eternal period.
W. E. Vine points out,
"Aionios - describes duration, either undefined but not endless, as in Romans 16:25; 2 Timothy 1:9; Titus 1:2; or undefined because endless as in Romans 16:26, and the other sixty-six places in the NT.
The predominant meaning of "aionios," that in which it is used everywhere in the NT, save the places noted above, may be seen in 2 Corinthians 4:18, where it is used in contrast with "proskairos," lit., 'for a season,' and in Philemon 15, where only in the NT it is used without a noun. Moreover it is used of persons and things which are in their nature endless, as, e.g., of God, Romans 16:26; of His power, 1 Timothy 6:16, and of His glory, 1 Peter 5:10; of the Holy Spirit, Hebrews 9:14; of the redemption effected by Christ, Hebrews 9:12, and of the consequent salvation of men, 5:9, as well as of His future rule, 2 Peter 1:11, which is elsewhere declared to be without end, Luke 1:33; of the life received by those who believer in Christ, John 3:16, concerning whom He said, 'they shall never perish,' 10:28, and of the resurrection body, 2 Corinthians 5:1, elsewhere said to be 'immortal,' 1 Corinthians 15:33, in which that life will be finally realized, Matthew 25:46; Titus 1:2.
"Aionios" is also used of the sin that 'hath never forgiveness,' Mark 3:29, and of the judgment of God, from which there is no appeal, Hebrews 6:2, and of the fire, which is one of its instruments, Matthew 18:8; 25:41; Jude 7, and which is elsewhere said to be 'unquenchable,' Mark 9:43.
The use of "aionios" here shows that the punishment referred to in 2 Thessalonians 1:9, is not temporary, but final, and, accordingly, the phraseology show that its purpose is not remedial but retributive.
(Vine's Expository Dictionary of Old and New Testament Words - pg. 43)
In light of what Vine points out here, how is it that you can contend that "aionios" is wrongly translated? Its constant association with things that are eternal - God, His glory, His power, Christ's redemption of the lost, Christ's future rule, the life received by those who have trusted in Christ, etc. - shows that "aionios" does carry the idea of eternality and does so in Scripture almost exclusively.
Well, many who have translated the Bible from Greek did/do speak Greek fluently, being experts in the language, and what they "came up with" was the rendering of "aionios" with an eternal sense. As experts in Greek, what do they understand that you don't?
I see. So, I suppose, all the translations that suit your preferences are good and those that don't, aren't? That's usually how this sort of thinking goes...
This is rather ironic (or hypocritical?) since it is evident that you, too, are defending your own agenda. Merely having an agenda does not instantly make the translators of the Bible mistaken. Thinking that it does is a non sequitur.
Well, first off, Vine does not offer "nonsense." That's a characterization of his work that is dismissive and offers nothing but unthinking bias.
Second, what might or might not be popular "in the East" has nothing to do with whether or not Vine is correct. Popularity does not determine what is true.
So? Others take a different view. I couldn't care less what the institutional stance of the EO Church is on the Atonement and soteriology. I take my cue from Scripture, not the EO Church.
Hardly. He adopted his view from the content of Scripture - as demonstrated in the quotation above. If you have a problem with his view, show from Scripture how it goes wrong.
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I tend to agree.
Some interesting vids on those:
Matthew 23:33
"Serpents! produce of vipers! how? ye may be fleeing from the judging<2920> of the Gehenna <1067>
Strong's Concordance with Hebrew and Greek Lexicon
929. basanismos from 928; torture:--torment.
G929 βασανισμός (basanismos) occurs 6 times in 5 verses. All in Revelation.
Revelation 14:11
And the smoke of the tormenting<929> of them into Ages of Ages is ascending.
G929 βασανισμός (basanismos), occurs 6 times in 5 verses. All in Revelation.
929. basanismos from 928; torture:--torment.
The Great City/Harlot/Queen Revelation chapts 17-19
Revelation 18:10
from afar having stood because of the fear of her torment<929>, saying, Wo, wo, the great city! Babylon, the strong city! because in one hour did come thy judgment.
Is the "GEHENNA" of Matt 23:33 the "LAKE OF FIRE" in Revelation? Poll thread
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The pride of the fallen angels is eternally punished; so is the anti-God pride of humans. The only reason I am not quite certain about the severity of physical punishment (my opinion doesn’t matter; the imagery of physical punishment is intentional and sufficient to awaken a dead spirit) is that the forlornness is bound to be excruciating. Would the physical punishment detract from the full grasp of that? Not if that is God’s will. Paramount to the God-fearing is that hell’s confines mean no God. Nothing and no one to resist any longer. Just the perpetually shocking realization of a missed opportunity—Person, that could have been found in Jesus. No ability to worship there, even if one wanted to.
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jcm2000
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Haven't posted in quite a long while here. The title of the thread caught my attention, because I recently been studying on this subject. The issue I have with ECT, is the following. We have a fallen nature from the outset. And because of this fallen nature we love darkness more than we do light. Sin has permeated every fiber of our being. Outside of having the holy spirit in us. Its flat out tough for some to see and be persuaded of the truth of Jesus Christ and the need for him as a savior. Because of this fallen nature. The Apostles were some hard headed people. They even struggled with Jesus Christ as the savior. And he performed miracle in plain site in the midst of them. They didn't believe until the resurrection. But now 2000 years later to say that when a person doesn't trust in Jesus is going to be annihilated or burned in ECT, because "you only have this one chance at this, given this life that you have?" It says in John 20:29 - Because thou hast seen, thou hast believed; blessed are they that have not seen, and yet believed. Not saying this as an excuse for man, because God has revealed himself in more ways than one, Christ being the ultimate revealing. Just hard for me to fit in the Character and nature of God.
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Christopher0121
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I don't think that it is a terrible sin to embrace a minority interpretation of a subject like Hell. Many beloved Christians in antiquity believed in Apocatastasis, a form of universalism. Others believed in a conditional immortality that favored Annihilationism. I believe that Christianity is a strong enough faith to embrace different interpretations of various topics, this being one of them.
Personally, I believe in eternal torment. However, I don't see it as many do. I believe that much of what is written about "Hell" is symbolic, metaphor, or simply the best our human language can present. I believe that the "lake of fire and brimstone" is as symbolic as the "tree of life". Jesus is truly the "tree of life". He is also the "river of life". And... I believe that He is also the "lake of fire".
In Revelation 14:10 we read...
Revelation 14:10 King James Version (KJV)
10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
Notice that this speaks of the wicked being tormented "in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb". They are not annihilated. They are not cast away into some alternate dimension or spiritual plane. Their "lake of fire" is right there before the throne where even the saints are said to cast down their crowns and worship.
I believe that every soul will be drawn before God. And for the redeemed, this will be a blessed and blissful paradise of existence. However, for the wicked and unredeemed, being in the very presence of God will be a fiery torment. Imagine a church service. Two people can go to the same church service, hear the same music, listen to the same sermon, and see the same preacher... and yet one will say they were deeply blessed by the service while the other was provoked to hostility, anger, rage, and indignation. I see Heaven like this. For the wicked, Heaven is Hell. Being forced to submit to and honor the very God they despised, cursed, blasphemed, and whose authority they resisted will be mental and emotional torment that will never cease. The more God's love and grace is displayed before them, the hotter those "fires" of torment will burn. The more God reaches for them, the greater their rejection will be. They have made their own Hell. And it is within them. It is a state of being more than it is a "place" as we understand it in the natural.
That's what I believe about Hell. And, most will probably say that it isn't a traditional position. But it is how I see it as I read and study the Scriptures.
There are those who believe that Hell (whatever it is) is only temporary. A punishment to cleanse or to correct the souls of the unredeemed. They believe that Hell is "eternal" as it relates to its nature, not its duration.
Honestly, I hope and pray that their universalist interpretation is right. Because I certainly don't want to see anyone suffer torments for all eternity.
All we can do is admit that there is an element of mystery to all of this and interpret the Scriptures as best as we can through prayer and deep reflection in the Spirit. Ultimately, what God has determined to be will be. Whatever "Hell" is, it is God's creation. And we can rest assured that whatever God has determined as being necessary is indeed necessary. To God be all honor, glory, and power.
God bless.
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No. You have the right not to believe so. However preach it is something else. Because an atheist may perceive it as "if so then why do I need Christ, He saves me from what".
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The lake of fire does last forever, but human souls (unlike angels) will "perish" there, because there it seems likely that Christ's wording on this isn't a metaphor: "destroy both body and soul". And also the wording in Revelation: "second death". Again, a wording that does not sound like a metaphor.
Perhaps the most convincing verse though really is just John 3:16 -- we only gain eternal life if it is given to us. Thus Genesis chapter 3 -- that Adam and Eve were put out from the Garden in order that they not have access to the Tree of Life.
The way all of the many diverse verses fit together in agreement is that human souls don't have eternal life -- don't yet have what angels seem to already have -- unless it is given to them, and that doesn't happen unless they are Redeemed.
It's useful to know this is similar to an traditional understanding also, from the 1rst century even.
Early forms of conditional immortality can be found in the writings of Ignatius of Antioch[21] (d. 108), Justin Martyr[22] (d. 165), and Irenaeus[23]
Annihilationism - Wikipedia
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But, Hades (do people sometimes call this temporary place Hades "hell?") -- is that actually what Catholics call 'purgatory'? (asking, since I've just assumed so) -- that's not forever. It will after the Day of Judgement be thrown into the lake of fire we learn near the end of Revelation.
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GraceBro
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Bad? No.
Sinful? Debatable.
Inaccurate? Yes.
The punishment of the wicked dead in hell is described throughout Scripture as “eternal fire” (Matthew 25:41), “unquenchable fire” (Matthew 3:12), “shame and everlasting contempt” (Daniel 12:2), a place where “the fire is not quenched” (Mark 9:44-49), a place of “torment” and “fire” (Luke 16:23-24), “everlasting destruction” (2 Thessalonians 1:9), a place where “the smoke of torment rises forever and ever” (Revelation 14:10-11), and a “lake of burning sulfur” where the wicked are “tormented day and night forever and ever” (Revelation 20:10).
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QUOTE="GraceBro,
Inaccurate? Yes.
Actually, that's what I continue to mull over. Am I reading the Scriptures correctly. You see, what you have posted is not what is in the Greek, according to some sources. Let's take a look:
The punishment of the wicked dead in hell is described throughout Scripture as “eternal fire” (Matthew 25:41)
Ummmmmmmmm.....no.
25:41τότε ἐρεῖ καὶ τοῖς ἐξ εὐωνύμων πορεύεσθε ἀπ᾽ ἐμοῦ οἱ κατηραμένοιεἰς τὸ πῦρ τὸ αἰώνιον τὸ ἡτοιμασμένον τῷ διαβόλῳ καὶ τοῖς ἀγγέλοις αὐτοῦ (aionios - not the world for eternal)
From Young's Literal Translation of the NT:
Mat 25:41 Then shall he say also to those on the left hand, Go ye from me, the cursed, to the fire, the age-during, (aionios. Or could also be translated as "age-lasting") that hath been prepared for the Devil and his messengers;
“unquenchable fire” (Matthew 3:12) Where do you get the idea that the word "unquenchable" means the same thing as "eternal?"
“shame and everlasting contempt” (Daniel 12:2),
Same thing here. The word which has been translated as "eternal" is "עוֹלָם" (owlam) which also carries the idea of an age or age-long.
a place where “the fire is not quenched” (Mark 9:44-49)
Again, where do you get the idea that this means "eternal?" You are reading into the text that which you have been told to believe. But more than that, where was the place where the fire burned without being quenched? It was the trash dump of Jerusalem, the Valley of Gehenom (Gehenna) where the trash and dead bodies were burned with a fire that continually burned.
But more than that, what is the context of Jesus speech here? What is He warning about. Go back a few verses and you will see that He is warning the Pharisees who were listening that if they harmed one of the disciples, the "little ones who believe in me," they would have a dire fate happen to them. This actually happened in AD 70 when the unbelieving Jews were trapped in the city of Jerusalem and over 1 million were killed. No doubt that a great multitude of them were simply thrown on the garbage dump of the city to burn with the other debris. No, this has nothing to do with an eternal hell. Remember, context has a lot to do with proper understanding of the Bible.
a place of “torment” and “fire” (Luke 16:23-24)
This is a parable which is speaking of the Pharisees. Jesus often taught in parables. Matthew 21: 33-46 is a similar parable. Both of them are spoken against the Pharisees and the nation of Israel. The "rich man" is national Israel, clothed in the purple and fine linen of the priests. They are rich because they have a special relationship with God that the poor man - the Gentile nations of paganism - do not have.
“everlasting destruction” (2 Thessalonians 1:9)
Again, understanding that Paul spoke often of the "soon coming" of the Lord, this appears to be about the destruction of Jerusalem. And again, the word there is "aionios" not adidios, which is Greek for eternal.
a place where “the smoke of torment rises forever and ever” (Revelation 14:10-11)
Actually, in the Orthodox faith, we do not see places in the next life. There is one reality for all who are ever born - God. There is no separate place called hell, a place called Purgatory, or a place called heaven. There is God. God is the heaven for the believer who has repented. He is the Purgatory for those who need cleansing and change. And He is the hell for those who died without repenting.
and a “lake of burning sulfur” where the wicked are “tormented day and night forever and ever” (Revelation 20:10).
This is your worst problem. The verse reads, if you believe that aionios means "eternity" "tormented day and night from eternity to eternity" ( εἰς τοὺς αἰῶνας τῶν αἰώνων) Why would there be more than one eternity?
These are the things I am pondering. Some claim that aionios can mean eternity and others say no. But more than that, what does punishment without end mean about the character of God, who is love? Is that consistent with love? I think not. It serves no purpose at all, instead of chastisement in fire that brings repentance and healing of the soul.
Inaccurate? Yes.
Actually, that's what I continue to mull over. Am I reading the Scriptures correctly. You see, what you have posted is not what is in the Greek, according to some sources. Let's take a look:
The punishment of the wicked dead in hell is described throughout Scripture as “eternal fire” (Matthew 25:41)
Ummmmmmmmm.....no.
25:41τότε ἐρεῖ καὶ τοῖς ἐξ εὐωνύμων πορεύεσθε ἀπ᾽ ἐμοῦ οἱ κατηραμένοιεἰς τὸ πῦρ τὸ αἰώνιον τὸ ἡτοιμασμένον τῷ διαβόλῳ καὶ τοῖς ἀγγέλοις αὐτοῦ (aionios - not the world for eternal)
From Young's Literal Translation of the NT:
Mat 25:41 Then shall he say also to those on the left hand, Go ye from me, the cursed, to the fire, the age-during, (aionios. Or could also be translated as "age-lasting") that hath been prepared for the Devil and his messengers;
“unquenchable fire” (Matthew 3:12) Where do you get the idea that the word "unquenchable" means the same thing as "eternal?"
“shame and everlasting contempt” (Daniel 12:2),
Same thing here. The word which has been translated as "eternal" is "עוֹלָם" (owlam) which also carries the idea of an age or age-long.
a place where “the fire is not quenched” (Mark 9:44-49)
Again, where do you get the idea that this means "eternal?" You are reading into the text that which you have been told to believe. But more than that, where was the place where the fire burned without being quenched? It was the trash dump of Jerusalem, the Valley of Gehenom (Gehenna) where the trash and dead bodies were burned with a fire that continually burned.
But more than that, what is the context of Jesus speech here? What is He warning about. Go back a few verses and you will see that He is warning the Pharisees who were listening that if they harmed one of the disciples, the "little ones who believe in me," they would have a dire fate happen to them. This actually happened in AD 70 when the unbelieving Jews were trapped in the city of Jerusalem and over 1 million were killed. No doubt that a great multitude of them were simply thrown on the garbage dump of the city to burn with the other debris. No, this has nothing to do with an eternal hell. Remember, context has a lot to do with proper understanding of the Bible.
a place of “torment” and “fire” (Luke 16:23-24)
This is a parable which is speaking of the Pharisees. Jesus often taught in parables. Matthew 21: 33-46 is a similar parable. Both of them are spoken against the Pharisees and the nation of Israel. The "rich man" is national Israel, clothed in the purple and fine linen of the priests. They are rich because they have a special relationship with God that the poor man - the Gentile nations of paganism - do not have.
“everlasting destruction” (2 Thessalonians 1:9)
Again, understanding that Paul spoke often of the "soon coming" of the Lord, this appears to be about the destruction of Jerusalem. And again, the word there is "aionios" not adidios, which is Greek for eternal.
a place where “the smoke of torment rises forever and ever” (Revelation 14:10-11)
Actually, in the Orthodox faith, we do not see places in the next life. There is one reality for all who are ever born - God. There is no separate place called hell, a place called Purgatory, or a place called heaven. There is God. God is the heaven for the believer who has repented. He is the Purgatory for those who need cleansing and change. And He is the hell for those who died without repenting.
and a “lake of burning sulfur” where the wicked are “tormented day and night forever and ever” (Revelation 20:10).
This is your worst problem. The verse reads, if you believe that aionios means "eternity" "tormented day and night from eternity to eternity" ( εἰς τοὺς αἰῶνας τῶν αἰώνων) Why would there be more than one eternity?
These are the things I am pondering. Some claim that aionios can mean eternity and others say no. But more than that, what does punishment without end mean about the character of God, who is love? Is that consistent with love? I think not. It serves no purpose at all, instead of chastisement in fire that brings repentance and healing of the soul.
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iLearn
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If you think God is love, you must also think God is stern. He is equally both.
Romans 11:22 Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off.
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GraceBro
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So, basically, all the Gospel and NT authors were misquoted in every instance? Yet, there are no verses showing anything temporal about hell. Oh well, I see this will go nowhere. But, thanks anyway.
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Oldmantook
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Universalism is a broad term that requires definition as there various perspectives within this view. Some do not believe in a literal, physical lake of fire. Others such as myself do. Based on this, an atheist would still need to repent and believe in the atoning blood of Jesus for forgiveness of sin, lest he/she end up in the LOF for an age of time. Being in the LOF for even a minute is not worth it, hence the need to repent in this life.
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Oldmantook
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Matt 25:46 does not state that hell/lake of fire lasts forever. Study the passage for yourself instead of just accepting what you were taught. The context is the sheep-goat judgment of the nations - not the great white throne judgment - 2 different events. The sheep are allowed to enter into the Millennial Kingdom while the goats are commanded to depart into the lake of fire. Millennium = 1,000 years. Therefore since the sheep enter into the kingdom for 1,000 years, the goats likewise enter the lake of fire for the same age of time. In both cases "eternal" life is limited to 1,000 years and "eternal" punishment is likewise limited to 1,000 years.
Also, you apparently don't notice that your citation of 2 Thess 1:9 and Rev 14:9-11 contradict each other. How can "they suffer the punishment of eternal destruction, away from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might," when Rev 14:10 states that "he will be tormented with fire and sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb." ?? Therefore based on Rev 14:10, "eternal" cannot mean forever in 2 Thess 1:9. Be careful what you label as a false belief.
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jcm2000
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It should be noted that "torment" is the following word that originally meant something different than what in the English we think of concerning torment. Torment - (basanois) was "originally (from oriental origin) a touchstone; a 'Lydian stone' used for testing gold because pure gold rubbed on it left a peculiar mark. This is quite interesting because we also see sulfur. Which if the "Torment" is really basanois - Which means to test the purity of metals - which to me brings to light - the many scriptures concerning Gold tried in the fire. Then sulfur makes sense because sulfur is used to help purify metals including gold in metallurgy. In metallurgy its a delicate process, because you can destroy the Gold in the fire. And God does have the power to do so as stated in Matthew 10:28 28Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell. None of this makes any sense if the words everlasting, forever and ever mean without end or eternal. It only makes sense for what the original means as is "For a Age, Age long/lasting, ages of the ages" not without end.
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