Matt. 25:46 Everlasting Punishment

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redleghunter

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Note that 2 Thes claims to be from 3 different people, so even taking it at face value it's hard to know how much it presents Paul's thought.
This is inaccurate. Paul simply lists his traveling evangelical partners.



As to churches, I believe mainline Protestant and Catholic scholarship generally agree that there are well-founded doubts.
Maybe some of the more liberal mainline do for various reasons not related to actual scholarship.

Catholic theologians call such a hypothesis and still hold to the tradition of the 13 epistles.

I'm not aware of any official statements on which books were written by the stated or implied authors, but I'd say the leaders, seminaries, Sunday School material, etc., generally reflect these views
Maybe in your church.

Why churches promote this hypothesis is truly amazing. That’s what it is, a hypothesis which ignores centuries of scholarly works.

All 13 epistles Paul identifies himself.

Is this truly the first time you've heard of this?
In the language as “accepted” and “common.” It is not. It’s just repackaged 19th century refuted liberal skeptic theology. Theories unproven.

So I’ll ask again. Which early church theologians questioned any of the epistles of Paul? Hebrews is the only one that I know of.

You have brought up these theories as facts before. Maybe start a thread where you can point out the evidence instead of just passing it off as fact or “everyone” knows this.
 
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redleghunter

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The reason for the existence of this thread is a set of questions that challenge the consistency of Mat 25:46 with Jesus' teachings. To my knowledge this type of question is largely modern. You cited ancient authors that support the dark side, so I don't think that's shows an ancient concern with the OP's questions.
Dark side. Lol.
 
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Oldmantook

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Dear Oldman: The Rotherham's Emphasized is dead on!

"And, these, shall go away, into, age-abiding, correction, but, the righteous, into, age-abiding, life."

Rotherham is not alone. YLT and Jonathan Mitchell N.T., among others, are in complete agreement.

"And these shall go away to punishment age-during, but the righteous to life age-during."

Young's Literal Translation (YLT)
Yes there are very few English translations that translate correctly and as a result most of Christendom since Augustine is continually led astray. The Gospel is indeed the Good News that Jesus is the Savior of all but under its current form of proclamation the Good News is only good news for the small minority of people who ever lived. For most, it proclaims the unwelcome bad news of eternal torment.
 
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hedrick

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You have brought up these theories as facts before. Maybe start a thread where you can point out the evidence instead of just passing it off as fact or “everyone” knows this.
I used the term disputed (actually undisputed for the rest). That's a fact. I have no interest in arguing about this. It doesn't accomplish anything.
 
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FineLinen

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Yes there are very few English translations that translate correctly and as a result most of Christendom since Augustine is continually led astray. The Gospel is indeed the Good News that Jesus is the Savior of all but under its current form of proclamation the Good News is only good news for the small minority of people who ever lived. For most, it proclaims the unwelcome bad news of eternal torment.

Dear Oldman: What a sad group is filling the pews of evangelical thinking. In a world of dismay and little hope, we attempt to pour it on. We are not satisfied to have the mass of humanity miserable, we want them miserable beyond words for ever and ever ad nausem. Well, my brother, we have a hope that the Glorious Gospel of Father, the Father of all fathers, reaches climax with His draw in Jesus Christ completely satisfied!

From Him, thru Him, for Him
 
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redleghunter

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I used the term disputed (actually undisputed for the rest). That's a fact. I have no interest in arguing about this. It doesn't accomplish anything.
Understand. I would really like for someone to defend these theories in a thread sometime. I see the claims and sometimes links but never an argument presented. Thanks for the dialogue.
 
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redleghunter

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Dear Oldman: What a sad group is filling the pews of evangelical thinking. In a world of dismay and little hope, we attempt to pour it on. We are not satisfied to have the mass of humanity miserable, we want them miserable beyond words for ever and ever ad nausem. Well, my brother, we have a hope that the Glorious Gospel of Father, the Father of all fathers, reaches climax with His draw in Jesus Christ completely satisfied!

From Him, thru Him, for Him
Well there is the Gospel. That’s what we should be teaching.

John 3: NASB

16“For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life. 17“For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him. 18“He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. 19“This is the judgment, that the Light has come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the Light, for their deeds were evil. 20“For everyone who does evil hates the Light, and does not come to the Light for fear that his deeds will be exposed.21“But he who practices the truth comes to the Light, so that his deeds may be manifested as having been wrought in God.”
 
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Oldmantook

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What's to reconcile?


.. so ?

In line with this, being your own observation, what happened to the fig tree that Yahushua cursed ?
The Father's plan is to reconcile ALL to himself - not just SOME per Col. 1:20. You prefer to believe that
God can only reconcile some. All means all but you prefer to qualify it based on your doctrinal belief. The fig tree that Jesus cursed did not bear fruit. If you bothered to read Jesus' own explanation, Jesus used the withering of the fig tree as an object lesson of the power of faith and prayer charging his disciples to pray and have faith without doubting, which really has no bearing upon this subject being discussed.
 
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Oldmantook

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The remnant, called and chosen and born again by the will of the Father in heaven, set apart by Him for His Own Testimony,
give up - ABANDON - ALL of their CHRISHED DOCTRINAL POSITIONS... and do not ever rely on nor believe "what we were first taught.....

as Jesus told all the disciples what is required just to be one of His disciples: you must give up E V E R Y T H I N G ........ and
Jesus told them : I know you do not know how to live, COME TO ME(JESUS) and I WILL SHOW YOU HOW (to live); learn from ME, for I AM gently and lowly of heart....

Likewise not to trust ANY flesh/ of the flesh or of the world/ or Yahuweh would curse them as He Says.

So all we have to trust is Yahuweh and His Word, that's all. That's Perfect !
True - trust in his Word. Can become problematic though when men interpret his Word differently leading to different doctrines, theologies and denominations. I think you would agree with me that unless the foundation is properly laid, everything else built upon it lies on shaky ground.
 
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FineLinen

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Well there is the Gospel. That’s what we should be teaching.

John 3: NASB

16“For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life. 17“For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him. 18“He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. 19“This is the judgment, that the Light has come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the Light, for their deeds were evil. 20“For everyone who does evil hates the Light, and does not come to the Light for fear that his deeds will be exposed.21“But he who practices the truth comes to the Light, so that his deeds may be manifested as having been wrought in God.”
Dear Red: It appears the word of the Archegos and Prodromos, the Master of Reconciliation, Jesus the Christ, will draw with power/ impel all mankind unto Himself. Will He be successful?

And what of those who cannot come to Him, being deranged by no fault of their own, or dying before "the age of accountability"? What is your suggestion for them?
 
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redleghunter

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Dear Red: It appears the word of the Archegos and Prodromos, the Master of Reconciliation, Jesus the Christ, will draw with power/ impel all mankind unto Himself. Will He be successful?

And what of those who cannot come to Him, being deranged by no fault of their own, or dying before "the age of accountability"? What is your suggestion for them?
The Gospel has always been Grace. God is Just and to redeem us sent His Son Jesus. All who believe in Him will not perish.

That’s what we need to be teaching and preaching. Not the theory everyone who denies Christ gets a free pass after Judgement Day.
 
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FineLinen

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The Gospel has always been Grace. God is Just and to redeem us sent His Son Jesus. All who believe in Him will not perish.

That’s what we need to be teaching and preaching. Not the theory everyone who denies Christ gets a free pass after Judgement Day.

Dear Red: There are no free passes! The A. & P. will draw all broken and bruised in every stage of dismay unto Himself!

"I WILL draw All unto Me!'
 
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redleghunter

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Dear Red: There are no free passes! The A. & P. will draw all broken and bruised in every stage of dismay unto Himself!

"I WILL draw All unto Me!'
Let’s expand that passage out a bit.

John 12: NASB

30Jesus answered and said, “This voice has not come for My sake, but for your sakes. 31“Now judgment is upon this world; now the ruler of this world will be cast out. 32“And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself.” 33But He was saying this to indicate the kind of death by which He was to die. 34The crowd then answered Him, “We have heard out of the Law that the Christ is to remain forever; and how can You say, ‘The Son of Man must be lifted up’? Who is this Son of Man?” 35So Jesus said to them, “For a little while longer the Light is among you. Walk while you have the Light, so that darkness will not overtake you; he who walks in the darkness does not know where he goes. 36“While you have the Light, believe in the Light, so that you may become sons of Light.”
These things Jesus spoke, and He went away and hid Himself from them. 37But though He had performed so many signs before them, yet they were not believing in Him. 38This was to fulfill the word of Isaiah the prophet which he spoke: “LORD, WHO HAS BELIEVED OUR REPORT? AND TO WHOM HAS THE ARM OF THE LORD BEEN REVEALED?” 39For this reason they could not believe, for Isaiah said again, 40“HE HAS BLINDED THEIR EYES AND HE HARDENED THEIR HEART, SO THAT THEY WOULD NOT SEE WITH THEIR EYES AND PERCEIVE WITH THEIR HEART, AND BE CONVERTED AND I HEAL THEM.”41These things Isaiah said because he saw His glory, and he spoke of Him.42Nevertheless many even of the rulers believed in Him, but because of the Pharisees they were not confessing Him, for fear that they would be put out of the synagogue; 43for they loved the approval of men rather than the approval of God.

44And Jesus cried out and said, “He who believes in Me, does not believe in Me but in Him who sent Me. 45“He who sees Me sees the One who sent Me. 46“I have come as Light into the world, so that everyone who believes in Me will not remain in darkness. 47“If anyone hears My sayings and does not keep them, I do not judge him; for I did not come to judge the world, but to save the world. 48“He who rejects Me and does not receive My sayings, has one who judges him; the word I spoke is what will judge him at the last day. 49“For I did not speak on My own initiative, but the Father Himself who sent Me has given Me a commandment as to what to say and what to speak. 50“I know that His commandment is eternal life; therefore the things I speak, I speak just as the Father has told Me.”
 
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FineLinen

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Let’s expand that passage out a bit.

John 12: NASB

30Jesus answered and said, “This voice has not come for My sake, but for your sakes. 31“Now judgment is upon this world; now the ruler of this world will be cast out. 32“And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself.” 33But He was saying this to indicate the kind of death by which He was to die. 34The crowd then answered Him, “We have heard out of the Law that the Christ is to remain forever; and how can You say, ‘The Son of Man must be lifted up’? Who is this Son of Man?” 35So Jesus said to them, “For a little while longer the Light is among you. Walk while you have the Light, so that darkness will not overtake you; he who walks in the darkness does not know where he goes. 36“While you have the Light, believe in the Light, so that you may become sons of Light.”
These things Jesus spoke, and He went away and hid Himself from them. 37But though He had performed so many signs before them, yet they were not believing in Him. 38This was to fulfill the word of Isaiah the prophet which he spoke: “LORD, WHO HAS BELIEVED OUR REPORT? AND TO WHOM HAS THE ARM OF THE LORD BEEN REVEALED?” 39For this reason they could not believe, for Isaiah said again, 40“HE HAS BLINDED THEIR EYES AND HE HARDENED THEIR HEART, SO THAT THEY WOULD NOT SEE WITH THEIR EYES AND PERCEIVE WITH THEIR HEART, AND BE CONVERTED AND I HEAL THEM.”41These things Isaiah said because he saw His glory, and he spoke of Him.42Nevertheless many even of the rulers believed in Him, but because of the Pharisees they were not confessing Him, for fear that they would be put out of the synagogue; 43for they loved the approval of men rather than the approval of God.

44And Jesus cried out and said, “He who believes in Me, does not believe in Me but in Him who sent Me. 45“He who sees Me sees the One who sent Me. 46“I have come as Light into the world, so that everyone who believes in Me will not remain in darkness. 47“If anyone hears My sayings and does not keep them, I do not judge him; for I did not come to judge the world, but to save the world. 48“He who rejects Me and does not receive My sayings, has one who judges him; the word I spoke is what will judge him at the last day. 49“For I did not speak on My own initiative, but the Father Himself who sent Me has given Me a commandment as to what to say and what to speak. 50“I know that His commandment is eternal life; therefore the things I speak, I speak just as the Father has told Me.”

Dear Red: What if you cannot hear? He came to "save the world">>>Will He be successful?
 
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redleghunter

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Dear Red: What if you cannot hear? He came to "save the world">>>Will He be successful?
You take those portions of Scriptures which seem to fit a universal salvation and then pose a question you hope will strike fear if one answers and says “no.” But your question is akin to asking me if I’ve stopped beating my dog lately.

Jesus did not speak in a duplicitous nature as your line of argument seems to present. I just showed you John 12 in context and Jesus says He would draw all men to Him. Then says not everyone will believe and His word would judge them.

Put it all together. Some will come to Him and some won’t. It has nothing to do with succeeding or failing. It has to do with God being Sovereign in salvation.

If the good news is all who reject Christ will later be redeemed then that would have been a clear teaching in the NT. It’s not. You have to redefine words, take portions of Scriptures out of their context and then weave a theology based on the idea read into the text.

Go ahead... send me the next post where you vilify me as being heartless.
 
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FineLinen

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You take those portions of Scriptures which seem to fit a universal salvation and then pose a question you hope will strike fear if one answers and says “no.” But your question is akin to asking me if I’ve stopped beating my dog lately.

Jesus did not speak in a duplicitous nature as your line of argument seems to present. I just showed you John 12 in context and Jesus says He would draw all men to Him. Then says not everyone will believe and His word would judge them.

Put it all together. Some will come to Him and some won’t. It has nothing to do with succeeding or failing. It has to do with God being Sovereign in salvation.

If the good news is all who reject Christ will later be redeemed then that would have been a clear teaching in the NT. It’s not. You have to redefine words, take portions of Scriptures out of their context and then weave a theology based on the idea read into the text.

Go ahead... send me the next post where you vilify me as being heartless.

Dear Red: Jesus Christ declares He will save the κόσμος /world! That is the whole rotten bunch. I believe His mission as the A. & P., is 100% successful!

He loses nothing!
 
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Oldmantook

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Let’s expand that passage out a bit.

John 12: NASB

30Jesus answered and said, “This voice has not come for My sake, but for your sakes. 31“Now judgment is upon this world; now the ruler of this world will be cast out. 32“And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself.” 33But He was saying this to indicate the kind of death by which He was to die. 34The crowd then answered Him, “We have heard out of the Law that the Christ is to remain forever; and how can You say, ‘The Son of Man must be lifted up’? Who is this Son of Man?” 35So Jesus said to them, “For a little while longer the Light is among you. Walk while you have the Light, so that darkness will not overtake you; he who walks in the darkness does not know where he goes. 36“While you have the Light, believe in the Light, so that you may become sons of Light.”
These things Jesus spoke, and He went away and hid Himself from them. 37But though He had performed so many signs before them, yet they were not believing in Him. 38This was to fulfill the word of Isaiah the prophet which he spoke: “LORD, WHO HAS BELIEVED OUR REPORT? AND TO WHOM HAS THE ARM OF THE LORD BEEN REVEALED?” 39For this reason they could not believe, for Isaiah said again, 40“HE HAS BLINDED THEIR EYES AND HE HARDENED THEIR HEART, SO THAT THEY WOULD NOT SEE WITH THEIR EYES AND PERCEIVE WITH THEIR HEART, AND BE CONVERTED AND I HEAL THEM.”41These things Isaiah said because he saw His glory, and he spoke of Him.42Nevertheless many even of the rulers believed in Him, but because of the Pharisees they were not confessing Him, for fear that they would be put out of the synagogue; 43for they loved the approval of men rather than the approval of God.

44And Jesus cried out and said, “He who believes in Me, does not believe in Me but in Him who sent Me. 45“He who sees Me sees the One who sent Me. 46“I have come as Light into the world, so that everyone who believes in Me will not remain in darkness. 47“If anyone hears My sayings and does not keep them, I do not judge him; for I did not come to judge the world, but to save the world. 48“He who rejects Me and does not receive My sayings, has one who judges him; the word I spoke is what will judge him at the last day. 49“For I did not speak on My own initiative, but the Father Himself who sent Me has given Me a commandment as to what to say and what to speak. 50“I know that His commandment is eternal life; therefore the things I speak, I speak just as the Father has told Me.”
Not sure what point you were trying to make by expanding the passage as you provided no further elaboration. If you wrestled with the text itself, you would find that word helkysō translated as "draw" can also be translated as "drag" as in when I am lifted up...will drag all men unto myself. As in they dragged him out of the temple (Acts 21:30); dragged them into the marketplace (Acts 16:19); drag you into court (Js 2:6); So they threw the net in, and now they could scarcely drag it (Jn 21:6).
What God wills, he will accomplish, even if it means dragging all men to himself as after all- God is omniscient and omnipotent.
 
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redleghunter

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Read the red. Your point is? Just quoting verses don't always suffice. Nor did your respond to my counter point.
Well if you look at the draw all men and then see Jesus speaking of judgment in the same passage, it throws your inclination for that one verse indicating all will be saved into serious question.

It evokes many are called but few are chosen.
 
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