Soterilosity - A person can lose salvation

Matthew ten Verseight

Messenger with a Message from Jesus
Aug 5, 2019
122
45
Pacific
Visit site
✟9,244.00
Country
United States
Faith
Protestant
Marital Status
Private
Hebrews 6:4 KJB - For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,

Hebrews 6:5 KJB - And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,

Hebrews 6:6 KJB - If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

Hebrews 6:7 KJB - For the earth which drinketh in the rain that cometh oft upon it, and bringeth forth herbs meet for them by whom it is dressed, receiveth blessing from God:

Hebrews 6:8 KJB - But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned.
 
Upvote 0

Matthew ten Verseight

Messenger with a Message from Jesus
Aug 5, 2019
122
45
Pacific
Visit site
✟9,244.00
Country
United States
Faith
Protestant
Marital Status
Private
Jeremiah 17:5 KJB - Thus saith the LORD; Cursed be the man that trusteth in man, and maketh flesh his arm, and whose heart departeth from the LORD.

Deuteronomy 30:16 KJB - In that I command thee this day to love the LORD thy God, to walk in his ways, and to keep his commandments and his statutes and his judgments, that thou mayest live and multiply: and the LORD thy God shall bless thee in the land whither thou goest to possess it.

Deuteronomy 30:17 KJB - But if thine heart turn away, so that thou wilt not hear, but shalt be drawn away, and worship other gods, and serve them;

Deuteronomy 30:18 KJB - I denounce unto you this day, that ye shall surely perish, and that ye shall not prolong your days upon the land, whither thou passest over Jordan to go to possess it.

James 1:14 KJB - But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.

James 1:15 KJB - Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.
 
Upvote 0

Matthew ten Verseight

Messenger with a Message from Jesus
Aug 5, 2019
122
45
Pacific
Visit site
✟9,244.00
Country
United States
Faith
Protestant
Marital Status
Private
Hebrews 10:29 KJB - Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
 
Upvote 0

Matthew ten Verseight

Messenger with a Message from Jesus
Aug 5, 2019
122
45
Pacific
Visit site
✟9,244.00
Country
United States
Faith
Protestant
Marital Status
Private
1 Corinthians 15:1 KJB - Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;

1 Corinthians 15:2 KJB - By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.
 
Upvote 0

Matthew ten Verseight

Messenger with a Message from Jesus
Aug 5, 2019
122
45
Pacific
Visit site
✟9,244.00
Country
United States
Faith
Protestant
Marital Status
Private
Matthew 5:13 KJB - Ye are the salt of the earth: but if the salt have lost his savour, wherewith shall it be salted? it is thenceforth good for nothing, but to be cast out, and to be trodden under foot of men.
 
Upvote 0

Matthew ten Verseight

Messenger with a Message from Jesus
Aug 5, 2019
122
45
Pacific
Visit site
✟9,244.00
Country
United States
Faith
Protestant
Marital Status
Private
John 15:5 KJB - I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.

John 15:6 KJB - If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.
 
Upvote 0

Matthew ten Verseight

Messenger with a Message from Jesus
Aug 5, 2019
122
45
Pacific
Visit site
✟9,244.00
Country
United States
Faith
Protestant
Marital Status
Private
Matthew 18:21 KJB - Then came Peter to him, and said, Lord, how oft shall my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? till seven times?

Matthew 18:22 KJB - Jesus saith unto him, I say not unto thee, Until seven times: but, Until seventy times seven.

Matthew 18:23 KJB - Therefore is the kingdom of heaven likened unto a certain king, which would take account of his servants.

Matthew 18:24 KJB - And when he had begun to reckon, one was brought unto him, which owed him ten thousand talents.

Matthew 18:25 KJB - But forasmuch as he had not to pay, his lord commanded him to be sold, and his wife, and children, and all that he had, and payment to be made.

Matthew 18:26 KJB - The servant therefore fell down, and worshipped him, saying, Lord, have patience with me, and I will pay thee all.

Matthew 18:27 KJB - Then the lord of that servant was moved with compassion, and loosed him, and forgave him the debt.

Matthew 18:28 KJB - But the same servant went out, and found one of his fellowservants, which owed him an hundred pence: and he laid hands on him, and took [him] by the throat, saying, Pay me that thou owest.

Matthew 18:29 KJB - And his fellowservant fell down at his feet, and besought him, saying, Have patience with me, and I will pay thee all.

Matthew 18:30 KJB - And he would not: but went and cast him into prison, till he should pay the debt.

Matthew 18:31 KJB - So when his fellowservants saw what was done, they were very sorry, and came and told unto their lord all that was done.

Matthew 18:32 KJB - Then his lord, after that he had called him, said unto him, O thou wicked servant, I forgave thee all that debt, because thou desiredst me:

Matthew 18:33 KJB - Shouldest not thou also have had compassion on thy fellowservant, even as I had pity on thee?

Matthew 18:34 KJB - And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him.

Matthew 18:35 KJB - So likewise shall my heavenly Father do also unto you, if ye from your hearts forgive not every one his brother their trespasses.
 
Upvote 0

Matthew ten Verseight

Messenger with a Message from Jesus
Aug 5, 2019
122
45
Pacific
Visit site
✟9,244.00
Country
United States
Faith
Protestant
Marital Status
Private
Romans 11:20 KJB - Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:

Romans 11:22 KJB - Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in [his] goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.
 
Upvote 0

Matthew ten Verseight

Messenger with a Message from Jesus
Aug 5, 2019
122
45
Pacific
Visit site
✟9,244.00
Country
United States
Faith
Protestant
Marital Status
Private
Ezekiel 3:20 KJB - Again, When a righteous man doth turn from his righteousness, and commit iniquity, and I lay a stumblingblock before him, he shall die: because thou hast not given him warning, he shall die in his sin, and his righteousness which he hath done shall not be remembered; but his blood will I require at thine hand.

Ezekiel 33:12 KJB - Therefore, thou son of man, say unto the children of thy people, The righteousness of the righteous shall not deliver him in the day of his transgression: as for the wickedness of the wicked, he shall not fall thereby in the day that he turneth from his wickedness; neither shall the righteous be able to live for his righteousness in the day that he sinneth.

Ezekiel 33:13 KJB - When I shall say to the righteous, that he shall surely live; if he trust to his own righteousness, and commit iniquity, all his righteousnesses shall not be remembered; but for his iniquity that he hath committed, he shall die for it.

Ezekiel 33:18 KJB - When the righteous turneth from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, he shall even die thereby.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Matthew ten Verseight

Messenger with a Message from Jesus
Aug 5, 2019
122
45
Pacific
Visit site
✟9,244.00
Country
United States
Faith
Protestant
Marital Status
Private
Some quote John 10:28-29, but misuse (wrest, as Peter says of) it:

And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. John 10:28

My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand. John 10:29

In John 10:28-29; The word "pluck" is again the Greek "Harpazo" and it means "to forcefully take away, to snatch away by might/power", and no one is saying that anyone can do so.

How did the Devil get Man to sin, did He forcibly take Man [Adam and Eve] from God, or was it through deception, and drawing away?

Look at the other texts that the word "pluck" is used, which is how actual Bible study is done, instead of what is being done - http://www.bluelette...ongs=G726&t=KJV

"take Him [Jesus] by force" - John 6:15

"the wolf catcheth them" - John 10:12

"the Spirit of the LORD caught away Philip" - Acts 8:39

"to take him [Paul] by force" - Acts 23:10

etc.

Therefore John 10:28-29, reads that "no [man] can take them by force out of my hand... Father's hand."; and therefore is in complete harmony with the other texts of Scripture which declare that we may be "drawn away":

But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed. James 1:14

Any man therefore that misuses John 10:28-29 after this, and knowing it, purposefully deceives.

Just as the Israelites were the "ensamples" [types] [1 Corinthians 10:11] for us, as they were just upon the borders of entering in, they were ensnared of the enemy, and were destroyed! Do not we see the real danger of the same unto our own soul?! They could turn away from God, even as we, by our own free choice that God gave unto us. We would then be using the power of the choice that God gave us to refuse God.

For if ye turn away from after him, he will yet again leave them in the wilderness; and ye shall destroy all this people. Numbers 32:15

But if thine heart turn away, so that thou wilt not hear, but shalt be drawn away, and worship other gods, and serve them; Deuteronomy 30:17

I denounce unto you this day, that ye shall surely perish, and that ye shall not prolong your days upon the land, whither thou passest over Jordan to go to possess it. Deuteronomy 30:18

Some say Israel had a different relationship to God. No, read 1 Corinthians 10, they had the Lamb, they had the Baptism, they had the Bread, they had all that we have, including the Water [Holy Spirit] from the Rock [Christ Jesus]. King Saul himself, was "...turned into another man." [1 Samuel 10:6] by the Holy Spirit, and yet he is forever lost, "rejected" of God, because he continually refused to repent, after a time of walking with the Lord, to listen to Him any longer and grieved away the Holy Spirit [“the Spirit of the LORD departed from Saul” 1 Samuel 16:14; & "the LORD ... was departed from Saul" 1 Samuel 18:12].

See that ye refuse not him that speaketh. For if they escaped not who refused him that spake on earth, much more shall not we escape, if we turn away from him that speaketh from heaven: Hebrews 12:25

I desire to see all safe from any of that, and standing upon the sure Word, not a vain and hopeless, No matter what one does, that it cannot affect our standing before God. That was one of the very same lies of Lucifer in Heaven ["iniquitous traffick"]. Paul knew and warned others, and feared:

But I keep under my body, and bring it into subjection: lest that by any means, when I have preached to others, I myself should be a castaway. 1 Corinthians 9:27

"castaway" means "unapproved, unfit, reprobate" - http://www.bluelette...rongs=G96&t=KJV

Shall we not hear the Word plead with us?:

For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, Hebrews 6:4

And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, Hebrews 6:5

If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame. Hebrews 6:6

...

But that which beareth thorns and briers is rejected, and is nigh unto cursing; whose end is to be burned. Hebrews 6:8

That word "rejected" is the very same word Paul used in 1 Corinthians 9:27 for "castaway", and even as Jesus said, as the branch that did not abide in the Vine, it will wither, and be good for nothing, but to be gathered and thrown into the fire...
 
Upvote 0

Matthew ten Verseight

Messenger with a Message from Jesus
Aug 5, 2019
122
45
Pacific
Visit site
✟9,244.00
Country
United States
Faith
Protestant
Marital Status
Private
[1] John 6:37

All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out. John 6:37

This passage is abused by the Calvinistic theology, for it is not saying that the Father chooses the ones who are saved, but rather that “whosoever” [John 3:15-16, etc] “believeth” and/or chooses life in Christ Jesus, is whom the Father “giveth” unto Jesus. The passage is prophetic and a statement of fact, for that whosoever “cometh to [Jesus]”, he [Jesus] would in “no wise cast out”, and it is these, that are the very ones that “shall come” to Jesus, and whom the Father “giveth” to Jesus. Also notice the continuing context:

And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day. John 6:38

Please notice that Jesus basically re-states the same thing in Vs 38. It says that the Father “giveth” unto Jesus, but whom does the Father “giveth”? The answer is found in Vs 40. It is they which “seeth the Son” and “believeth on [Jesus]”. The Father does not make them believe, nor choose for them. The choice of the Father is rather, that “whosoever believeth” on Jesus Christ will He [the Father] “giveth” to Jesus.

And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day. John 6:40

Furthermore, in Vs 39, Jesus said of all those which “seeth” and “believeth” on Him [Jesus], and whom the Father “giveth” to Him [Jesus], that He [Jesus] “should lose nothing, but raise it up again at the last day”, which is the same as saying, “I will in no wise cast out” [Vs 37], for the word “lose” is the Greek word “απολεσω” [apoleso], and means to “destroy, kill, render useless, perish, to be lost, etc” [Strong's Concordance]. We can see in Luke 9:25, wherein the same word “lose” is used in connection with being “cast away”, and so the relation is see, “For what is a man advantaged, if he gain the whole world, and lose himself, or be cast away?” Luke 9:25. This same Greek word for “lose” is used in many other passages which speak of destruction [“destroyed”], like Luke 17:27,29, etc, and in John 3:15,16, the same word is translated “perish”:

That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. John 3:15

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. John 3:16
So can we, as Christians, be lost, since Vs 38 says, “[Jesus] would lose nothing”?

Yes. Notice that those which Jesus would not “lose” are those “whosoever” that “seeth” and “believeth” on/in Jesus. This “believeth” is not a mere one time past act/decision, profession or faith. And notice that Jesus would “raise [the dead in Christ] up at the last day”, which speaks of the First Great Resurrection at the 2nd Advent of Jesus, which is far different that what those who believe in immortal spirit/soul theology teach.

It is instead a present, abiding, continuing, persisting, enduring, with patience, active, living, current, day-by-day walk with Jesus. We must always “continue” to “abide”, we must always “continue” to “believe”, etc, for it is written [“...for whatsoever is not of faith is sin.” Romans 14:23]. It is these which “continue” to “believeth” in/on Jesus that He would not “lose”, “nor cast out”. God never [not even in eternity] removes the choice from us that is given unto us, to remain in Him or to walk away from Him [though the finally saved, will ever choose to walk with Him, since it is prophetically foretold]. God is love, and love cannot force.

Please notice the carefully underlined words, and especially the 'conditionals', like “if”, and so on:

But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved. Matthew 24:13

Be ye also patient; stablish your hearts: for the coming of the Lord draweth nigh. James 5:8

Grudge not one against another, brethren, lest ye be condemned: behold, the judge standeth before the door. James 5:9

Take, my brethren, the prophets, who have spoken in the name of the Lord, for an example of suffering affliction, and of patience. James 5:10

Behold, we count them happy which endure. Ye have heard of the patience of Job, and have seen the end of the Lord; that the Lord is very pitiful, and of tender mercy. James 5:11

Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed; John 8:31

And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled Colossians 1:21

In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight: Colossians 1:22

If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister; Colossians 1:23 [this passage clearly reveals that we are “reconciled” “if” we “continue in the faith, grounded and settled”, but “if” we do not “continue in the faith, grounded and settled” we will then be “moved away from the hope of the gospel”.]

Let that therefore abide in you, which ye have heard from the beginning. If that which ye have heard from the beginning shall remain in you, ye also shall continue in the Son, and in the Father. 1 John 2:24

There are many, many more such texts in Scripture, from Genesis to Revelation, revealing that there are such conditions. Therefore, notice throughout John 6, the many times that Jesus speaks of the “believeth”, like in Vs 35,36,47,64 etc. Then notice that Jesus speaks of the continual eating and drinking of His “flesh” [“food indeed”] and “blood” [“drink indeed”] which is the taking in/assimilation of and the practice/doing of His words, see John 6:57. Then notice John 6:66 that those who were “disciples” could leave of their own choice and “went back”, and “walked no more with Him”, and Jesus did not force them to remain, though He plead with them, but He honoured their choice.

Consider the condition again:

It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me. John 6:45

God is not arbitrarily deciding who shall be saved or who shall be lost, and not forcing men to remain 'saved' if they decide otherwise later in their time of probation, but gives freely the choice to all, for Jesus is the Light which lighteth “every man” than “cometh into he world” [John 1:9], and all are “without excuse” [Romans 1:20], for God is one “Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.” 1 Timothy 2:4, yet since God is love, He forces no one to choose Him, nor remain with Him, hence He pleads, “Why will ye die ...”, and says through His servants, “choose life” [Deuteronomy 30:19], rather than death.
 
Upvote 0

Matthew ten Verseight

Messenger with a Message from Jesus
Aug 5, 2019
122
45
Pacific
Visit site
✟9,244.00
Country
United States
Faith
Protestant
Marital Status
Private
[2] John 6:65

And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father. John 6:65

Again, 'the Calvinistic predestination', OSAS and Irresistible Grace theology distorts this text, and takes it out [wresting it out] of its context and from further clarifying passages to suit the doctrines of devils of TULIP. Please see the previous explanation of passages in John 6, then continue here. Please notice the previous context again:

Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Moses gave you not that bread from heaven; but my Father giveth you the true bread from heaven. John 6:32

Whom is the “true bread” and to whom was the Father giving “the true bread from Heaven”?

The “true bread” is Jesus Christ:

For the bread of God is he which cometh down from heaven, and giveth life unto the world. John 6:33

The Father was giving the “True Bread” [Jesus] to all whom would choose to “see”, “hear” and “believe”, continuing therein. God was not looking to withhold from any, but desiring to give to all, and yet many would refuse, and reject and turn away from these things, some even after receiving it for a time [“My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge: because thou hast rejected knowledge, I will also reject thee, that thou shalt be no priest to me: seeing thou hast forgotten the law of thy God, I will also forget thy children.” Hosea 4:6]:

Now, please notice the “Therefore said I unto you” in Vs 65 which means that Jesus had said it before in a different way:

All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out. John 6:37

No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day. John 6:44

It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me. John 6:45

Now see the immediate context of Vs 65:

But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him. John 6:64

The Father “draw'/s” [Vs 44] men, does not choose for them, nor forces them, but seeks to woo men by His great love, and is the same word used in John 12:32:

And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me. John 12:32

These passages also declare that ones personal choice [given them of God] and/or abiding “belie[f]” takes a role in who would “come to” Jesus, and whom the Father would then “giveth” to Jesus. The heavenly Father was offering salvation in Christ Jesus to all who would simply “believe” and continue therein. Not all would accept it, and not all would remain believing [“They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away.” Luke 8:13].

That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. John 3:15

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. John 3:16

For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. John 3:17

He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. John 3:18

And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. John 3:19

For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved. John 3:20

But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God. John 3:21

Now, please go back to John 6:

Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent. John 6:29

Notice these other texts which also relate to this one:

For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath. Matthew 13:12

For he that hath, to him shall be given: and he that hath not, from him shall be taken even that which he hath. Mark 4:25

Take heed therefore how ye hear: for whosoever hath, to him shall be given; and whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken even that which he seemeth to have. Luke 8:18

If any of you lack wisdom, let him ask of God, that giveth to all men liberally, and upbraideth not; and it shall be given him. James 1:5

But the path of the just is as the shining light, that shineth more and more unto the perfect day. Proverbs 4:18

Some cannot endure the increasing light, because of their selfishness that they would not turn from, and so these turn away, even after having great amounts of light and having walked with God for a time. King Saul was one, who was born again and “...turned into another man” [1 Samuel 10:6], and yet through continued stubbornness, disobedience, rebellion and transgression, grieved away the Holy Spirit [“...the Spirit of the LORD departed from Saul....” 1 Samuel 16:14], and was so lost forever, which is why Paul says, “...grieve not the holy Spirit of God ...” [Ephesians 4:30], lest we too share the same as King Saul or Judas or Ananias/Sapphira, etc.
 
Upvote 0

Matthew ten Verseight

Messenger with a Message from Jesus
Aug 5, 2019
122
45
Pacific
Visit site
✟9,244.00
Country
United States
Faith
Protestant
Marital Status
Private
[3] Romans 8:29

For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. Romans 8:29


Many have misunderstood how Paul clearly defined and utilized the words 'predestinated' [Romans 8:29,30; 1 Corinthians 2:7; Ephesians 1:5,11].

How are we "chosen"/”predestined”?

According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Ephesians 1:4

Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will, Ephesians 1:5

To the praise of the glory of his grace, wherein he hath made us accepted in the beloved. Ephesians 1:6

...

In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will: Ephesians 1:11

That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ. Ephesians 1:12

In whom ye also [trusted], after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise, Ephesians 1:13

We are only "chosen" if we are "in [Christ Jesus]", and this comes by grace through faith. We must “believe”.

All may choose, all may accept or refuse.

Christ Jesus is the "chosen", and therefore all "whomsoever" "believeth" [continually, perpetually, "unto the end"] "on Him", "shall be saved" and are thus predestined “in” Him [Jesus Christ]. God has not arbitrarily [unjustly] chosen people to be saved or lost, but has chosen to save all men “in Christ Jesus”, and those which are not “in Him”, having chosen such, will be lost, by their choice, in not choosing what God would have for them, which is salvation, thus in their rejection of God's providing salvation, they have chosen destruction, of their own free will which was given of God to all to choose.

The Sacrifice was provided for all, even for those who will ultimately refuse it.

And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for [the sins of] the whole world. 1 John 2:2

Which is why it is important to understand the plan of salvation given in the Sanctuary, by God, that those which refuse this "propitiation" will have to pay for their sins themselves, having rejected that which was fully provided for by God, "provide Himself a Lamb", the judgment will remain upon them, and those which accepted for awhile but fell away, will have their forgiveness revoked and their sins will fall upon them again, and will pay all, the 2nd death which is the wages for sin.
 
Upvote 0

Matthew ten Verseight

Messenger with a Message from Jesus
Aug 5, 2019
122
45
Pacific
Visit site
✟9,244.00
Country
United States
Faith
Protestant
Marital Status
Private
[4] Romans 9:14-22

What shall we say then? [Is there] unrighteousness with God? God forbid. - Romans 9:14

For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. - Romans 9:15

So then [it is] not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy. - Romans 9:16

For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth. - Romans 9:17

Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will [have mercy], and whom he will he hardeneth. - Romans 9:18

Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will? - Romans 9:19

Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed [it], Why hast thou made me thus? - Romans 9:20

Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour? - Romans 9:21

[What] if God, willing to shew [his] wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction: - Romans 9:22

Consider, what Scripture has to say of the hardening of the heart:

And he hardened Pharaoh's heart, that he hearkened not unto them; as the LORD had said. - Exodus 7:13

And the LORD said unto Moses, Pharaoh's heart [is] hardened, he refuseth to let the people go. - Exodus 7:14

And the magicians of Egypt did so with their enchantments: and Pharaoh's heart was hardened, neither did he hearken unto them; as the LORD had said. - Exodus 7:22

But when Pharaoh saw that there was respite, he hardened his heart, and hearkened not unto them; as the LORD had said. - Exodus 8:15

Then the magicians said unto Pharaoh, This [is] the finger of God: and Pharaoh's heart was hardened, and he hearkened not unto them; as the LORD had said. - Exodus 8:19

And Pharaoh hardened his heart at this time also, neither would he let the people go. - Exodus 8:32

And Pharaoh sent, and, behold, there was not one of the cattle of the Israelites dead. And the heart of Pharaoh was hardened, and he did not let the people go. - Exodus 9:7

And the LORD hardened the heart of Pharaoh, and he hearkened not unto them; as the LORD had spoken unto Moses. - Exodus 9:12

And when Pharaoh saw that the rain and the hail and the thunders were ceased, he sinned yet more, and hardened his heart, he and his servants. - Exodus 9:34

And the heart of Pharaoh was hardened, neither would he let the children of Israel go; as the LORD had spoken by Moses. - Exodus 9:35

And the LORD said unto Moses, Go in unto Pharaoh: for I have hardened his heart, and the heart of his servants, that I might shew these my signs before him: - Exodus 10:1

But the LORD hardened Pharaoh's heart, so that he would not let the children of Israel go. - Exodus 10:20

But the LORD hardened Pharaoh's heart, and he would not let them go. - Exodus 10:27

And Moses and Aaron did all these wonders before Pharaoh: and the LORD hardened Pharaoh's heart, so that he would not let the children of Israel go out of his land. - Exodus 11:10

And the LORD hardened the heart of Pharaoh king of Egypt, and he pursued after the children of Israel: and the children of Israel went out with an high hand. - Exodus 14:8

But Sihon king of Heshbon would not let us pass by him: for the LORD thy God hardened his spirit, and made his heart obstinate, that he might deliver him into thy hand, as [appeareth] this day. - Deuteronomy 2:30

And he also rebelled against king Nebuchadnezzar, who had made him swear by God: but he stiffened his neck, and hardened his heart from turning unto the LORD God of Israel. - 2 Chronicles 36:13

[He is] wise in heart, and mighty in strength: who hath hardened [himself] against him, and hath prospered? - Job 9:4

O LORD, why hast thou made us to err from thy ways, [and] hardened our heart from thy fear? Return for thy servants' sake, the tribes of thine inheritance. - Isaiah 63:17

But when his heart was lifted up, and his mind hardened in pride, he was deposed from his kingly throne, and they took his glory from him: - Daniel 5:20

Yea, they made their hearts as an adamant stone, lest they should hear the law, and the words which the LORD of hosts hath sent in his spirit by the former prophets: therefore came a great wrath from the LORD of hosts. Zechariah 7:12

He saith unto them, Moses because of the hardness of your hearts suffered you to put away your wives: but from the beginning it was not so. - Matthew 19:8

And when he had looked round about on them with anger, being grieved for the hardness of their hearts, he saith unto the man, Stretch forth thine hand. And he stretched it out: and his hand was restored whole as the other. - Mark 3:5

For they considered not [the miracle] of the loaves: for their heart was hardened. - Mark 6:52

And when Jesus knew [it], he saith unto them, Why reason ye, because ye have no bread? perceive ye not yet, neither understand? have ye your heart yet hardened? - Mark 8:17

And Jesus answered and said unto them, For the hardness of your heart he wrote you this precept. - Mark 10:5

Afterward he appeared unto the eleven as they sat at meat, and upbraided them with their unbelief and hardness of heart, because they believed not them which had seen him after he was risen. - Mark 16:14

He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with [their] eyes, nor understand with [their] heart, and be converted, and I should heal them. - John 12:40

But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God; - Romans 2:5

The hardness of heart comes from the personal unbelief of the individual person, in rejecting the miracles, signs, wonders, convictions, and truths that the Holy Spirit brings to each person.

It is not that God deliberately sets out to destroy any person, far be it from Him, and God Forbid!, but rather He desires to save everyone, but He will not violate the free choice to love Him or reject Him that He has given to every person. The cross proves this. He sends signs, wonders, miracles, truths, etc and the Holy Spirit to bring conviction, that we all might come to repentance and belief. Remember, it is written, that God “Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.” [1 Timothy 2:4], and that included Pharaoh, etc. The miracles were given to Pharaoh [and the Egyptians, etc], so that he [and they] would be without excuse in the final day. If they had believed, they too could have been delivered! God desired to not only deliver the Hebrews, but also the Egyptians from their idolatry, etc. Though God knew that many would refuse, that is not to say that God chose for them, or made them choose to be destroyed, though He already knew what they would choose, even in the mercy and grace of God, through His many signs, wonders, etc.

Most do not understand the all-knowing of God [Isaiah 46:9-10], and how that fits with free choice/will [“freewill”, Leviticus 22:18, etc, Psalms 54:6, 119:108; Revelation 21:6, 22:17]. God knows already, in the future, who will be in the kingdom, and who will not, but that does not stop Him, in the present of each individual, from giving every man, every chance to come to repentance, and to choose His salvation in Christ Jesus, for God is long-suffering [Romans 2:4]. This long-suffering of God already takes into account His foreknowledge [Romans 9:22]. God is not in Heaven, arbitrarily deciding, but offers to every man [individual person] that which is needful at any and every step in life to choose the right way. That God knows that the majority since the beginning would choose the wrong, He ever offered to them the possibility/choice to choose otherwise. There comes a time [known only to God], however, when God knows that the heart of man [individual persons] is beyond listening to Him, and so the Holy Spirit is grieved away, even as it was in the days of Noah [Genesis 6:3; 1 Peter 3:20], just as it had for King Saul and for Judas, for Ananias and Sapphira, and many others.

Pharaoh's heart was hardened [Exodus 7:14,22, 8:19, 9:35], but how did this happen? Why does the Scripture say in some texts that it is God that hardens the heart of Pharaoh [Exodus 7:13, 9:12, 10:1,20,27, 11:10, 14:8], and other texts reveal that Pharaoh hardened his own heart [Exodus 8:15,32, 9:34, even using the word “at this time also” in Exodus 8:32, and “...neither did he set his heart to this also ...” Exodus 7:23]? How do we understand this?

Please notice Exodus 8:19, wherein the magicians of Pharaoh recognize something, which Pharaoh refuses, in that they say, “This is the finger of God...”. This terminology reveals to us, that the Holy Spirit was at work upon Pharaoh's heart/mind and the Egyptian nation, bringing conviction [John 16:8] through the almighty power and miracles God was sending to him [like as the those in Mark 6:52]. How do we know?

Notice in Exodus 31:18; Deuteronomy 9:10, that the Ten Commandments were written by the “finger of God”. And the Ten Commandments are “spiritual” [moral] [Romans 7:14]. What then does this “finger of God” phrase mean? Turn to the New Testament and read again, “But if I with the finger of God cast out devils, no doubt the kingdom of God is come upon you.” [Luke 11:20]. However, if we turn to the other Gospels, wherein the exact same events occur, we find other words used in the same place, notice, “But if I cast out devils by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God is come unto you.” [Matthew 12:28]

The “hardness of heart” is connected to “unbelief” [Mark 16:14; Romans 2:5].

Job 9:4 asks a very important question, which we should all consider, “He is wise in heart, and mighty in strength: who hath hardened himself against him, and hath prospered?”

Romans 9:22, is conclusive, notice, “[What] if God, willing to shew [his] wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:”

If God made them to do evil or be wicked, why then does Paul, under inspiration say that God had to “endure” them even with “much longsuffering”? If God truly made them to be that way, choose for them [which would make us all automatons/robots without any choice whatsoever], then what enduring needed to be done, or what longsuffering of God was there to be? For instance, if I make a house poorly on purpose, even designed to fail/collapse, I do not say I endured it, or was longsuffering with it, because I designed it that way, for I had purposefully designed it to fail. I expected it to accomplish what I designed it to do, which is fail.

God already knew/knows the final decisions of all of the finally impenitent [“the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction”], yet He “endured” [and even now endures] them “with much longsuffering”. He pleaded with them many times all along their life, and yet they ultimately choose not to repent, and hardened themselves against conviction, against the Holy Spirit of God. It was not that God did not desire that they be delivered/saved, it is that He already knew from the beginning that they would choose otherwise, even after God entreated them throughout their life to turn.

Most people look at the end result of God's knowing, and say that God made them to choose that end result, but this would make God not only the accomplice to Sin, but the very author and sustainer of it. Yet this is furthest from the Truth as it is in Christ Jesus. Think of the Pharisees, briefly, and all of the miracles that Jesus did before them, healing, restoring, resurrecting, etc, and yet they refused to believe. Think of all the Truth Jesus spake unto them, that they might go and learn what was meant from the Word of God, and yet they refused to study aright. Think of all the times that Jesus sought to correct their misunderstandings, and yet they stubbornly refused to be corrected. Think of all the light and sight that Jesus desired to give to them freely, yet they chose to remain blind and in darkness, though they claimed that they could see. Think of all the prophets and messengers sent unto them, yet the spurned their message, even refusing baptism against themselves [Zechariah 7:12; Luke 7:30]. Like Pharaoh, they asked for a sign.

Pharaoh [Tutmoses III], perhaps more than any other single man in historical existence, refused and denied God, in the face of the most awesome miracles, teachings, etc sent unto him. God proved Himself [the Great I AM] before Pharaoh, perhaps moreso than He has ever done before any other single man in history. Pharaoh, hardened his own heart, in exaltation, refusing to bend, even demanding a sign from God, though Scripture declares men already know God [Romans 1:19-22, they became “fools”, as Pharaoh was – Psalms 14:1, 53:1, for God says, “I AM”, and they say, “No, you're not...”]. God provided the miracles, Pharaoh refused them hardening his own heart. It is thus that the Scripture says that the LORD hardened Pharaoh's heart, for God “gave them up” [Romans 1:24,26] to their own selves/choices. God knowing what Pharaoh would choose in each instance [“Pharaoh shall not hearken unto you ...” Exodus 7:4], knowing full well what Pharaoh would ask [“Pharaoh shall speak unto you, saying, Shew a miracle for you ...” Exodus 7:9], used each instance to demonstrate the goodness of God in His mercy [in letting up the plagues, etc, Romans 9:14,16], forgiveness and His justice [which is Just]. God had even let the Pharaoh live longer still after all of the plagues were done, yet Pharaoh, choose to pursue after the Israelites and still wage war against God. Pharaoh drowned in the Red Sea, in his rebellion, when he never had to. Satan will likewise, even after 1,000 years, will still seek to pursue his goal of dethroning God. He too will perish in a red [fiery] sea [see Revelation 20].

Furthermore, we can also peek behind the scenes, as in Daniel, and know that Satan was the one instilling rebellion into Pharaoh, through his magicians, natural explanations of phenomena, etc.

Therefore, go back to Romans 9:14, and read again the question Paul asks, “Is there unrighteousness with God?” Paul says, “God forbid!”

If God had made men [or any creature] to violate His Law [Ten Commandments], then how is it their fault, and if not their fault, why then are they guilty, and if not guilty, why then a death penalty, or a saviour? The Calvinistic theology, OSAS, etc makes God to not be Love, but something else entirely.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Matthew ten Verseight

Messenger with a Message from Jesus
Aug 5, 2019
122
45
Pacific
Visit site
✟9,244.00
Country
United States
Faith
Protestant
Marital Status
Private
Genesis 2:15 KJB - And the LORD God took the man, and put him into the garden of Eden to dress it and to keep it.

The Garden, outwardly, was to demonstrate what was in the inward part of the heart of man, which is the Heart Garden, the fertile soil of the heart [Matthew 13:19; Luke 8:15,etc.; Song of Songs 4:12,16, 5:1; Isaiah 58:11; Jeremiah 31:12, etc.] God was to always walk in. They were to “dress” in God's righteousness, and to “keep” it by the strength He bestowed in them. Yet, because man allowed satan to sow the seed [tare] of doubt into the Heart Garden, weeds and thorns grew, into sin, and thus God left the Heart Garden, and then He had to remove man from the physical garden, and institute the plan of redemption.

Salvation, is the free Gift from God [un-earnable], even as was the original Creation and Garden. Yet, mankind had a duty, a responsibility towards God, in the freedom of will granted. They were to “keep” and 'guard' that which was “committed” unto them, and they in turn were to commit themselves unto the keeping by God. Salvation is based in relationship.
 
Upvote 0

Matthew ten Verseight

Messenger with a Message from Jesus
Aug 5, 2019
122
45
Pacific
Visit site
✟9,244.00
Country
United States
Faith
Protestant
Marital Status
Private
What about Romans 8 [especially vs 35, 38-39]?

Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? [shall] tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword? Romans 8:35

For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, Romans 8:38

Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord. Romans 8:39

Notice that a question is asked about "who shall separate us from...". And the word "separate", from the greek "chōrizō" means to divide, pull apart, cut asunder, divorce. Paul answers his own question by saying that nothing short of our own selves shall be able to do it. He leaves the only option as ourselves, which we may choose to cease to believe, the choice is ours to continue to "endure" "unto the end" "by faith", even as the "just shall live by faith", a faith that is "abiding" in Christ Jesus.

This is not a matter of being "stronger" than God, for it is a matter of the will of GodD in Love, in that He will not violate the free will / free choice He has given us... to choose Him or not, though He "would have all men to be saved"... therefore the Gospel is for "whosoever" "believeth", and then "continues therein"... etc, but we know that "many" will be lost.

Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, If ye continue in my word, [then] are ye my disciples indeed; John 8:31

Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me. John 15:4

I am the vine, ye [are] the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing. John 15:5

If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast [them] into the fire, and they are burned. John 15:6




...even as the Salt that loses its saltiness... cast out, good for nothing...

If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ye shall ask what ye will, and it shall be done unto you. John 15:7

If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and [be] not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, [and] which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister; Colossians 1:23

He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. 1 John 2:4

Let that therefore abide in you, which ye have heard from the beginning. If that which ye have heard from the beginning shall remain in you, ye also shall continue in the Son, and in the Father. 1 John 2:24

However, we can so "divorce" ourselves from Him by ourt own choice to do so, by no longer wanting to continue to believe and live by faith...

In the marriage to Christ Jesus, it works the same...

"But if the unbelieving depart, let him depart. ..." 1 Corinthians 7:15;p
 
Upvote 0

Matthew ten Verseight

Messenger with a Message from Jesus
Aug 5, 2019
122
45
Pacific
Visit site
✟9,244.00
Country
United States
Faith
Protestant
Marital Status
Private
Notice in the most famously quoted verse, John 3:16:

Joh 3:15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.

Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Joh 3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

Joh 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

For those that like to “play the Greek/Hebrew game ...”

Joh 3:15 ιναG2443 CONJ παςG3956 A-NSM οG3588 T-NSM πιστευωνG4100 V-PAP-NSM ειςG1519 PREP αυτονG846 P-ASM μηG3361 PRT-N αποληταιG622 V-2AMS-3S αλλG235 CONJ εχηG2192 V-PAS-3S ζωηνG2222 N-ASF αιωνιονG166 A-ASF


Joh 3:16 ουτωςG3779 ADV γαρG1063 CONJ ηγαπησενG25 V-AAI-3S οG3588 T-NSM θεοςG2316 N-NSM τονG3588 T-ASM κοσμονG2889 N-ASM ωστεG5620 CONJ τονG3588 T-ASM υιονG5207 N-ASM αυτουG846 P-GSM τονG3588 T-ASM μονογενηG3439 A-ASM εδωκενG1325 V-AAI-3S ιναG2443 CONJ παςG3956 A-NSM οG3588 T-NSM πιστευωνG4100 V-PAP-NSM ειςG1519 PREP αυτονG846 P-ASM μηG3361 PRT-N αποληταιG622 V-2AMS-3S αλλG235 CONJ εχηG2192 V-PAS-3S ζωηνG2222 N-ASF αιωνιονG166 A-ASF

Joh 3:17 ουG3756 PRT-N γαρG1063 CONJ απεστειλενG649 V-AAI-3S οG3588 T-NSM θεοςG2316 N-NSM τονG3588 T-ASM υιονG5207 N-ASM αυτουG846 P-GSM ειςG1519 PREP τονG3588 T-ASM κοσμονG2889 N-ASM ιναG2443 CONJ κρινηG2919 V-PAS-3S τονG3588 T-ASM κοσμονG2889 N-ASM αλλG235 CONJ ιναG2443 CONJ σωθηG4982 V-APS-3S οG3588 T-NSM κοσμοςG2889 N-NSM διG1223 PREP αυτουG846 P-GSM

Joh 3:18 οG3588 T-NSM πιστευωνG4100 V-PAP-NSM ειςG1519 PREP αυτονG846 P-ASM ουG3756 PRT-N κρινεταιG2919 V-PPI-3S οG3588 T-NSM δεG1161 CONJ μηG3361 PRT-N πιστευωνG4100 V-PAP-NSM ηδηG2235 ADV κεκριταιG2919 V-RPI-3S οτιG3754 CONJ μηG3361 PRT-N πεπιστευκενG4100 V-RAI-3S ειςG1519 PREP τοG3588 T-ASN ονομαG3686 N-ASN τουG3588 T-GSM μονογενουςG3439 A-GSM υιουG5207 N-GSM τουG3588 T-GSM θεουG2316 N-GSM

This "believeth" unto Salvation, is not a one time past action, merely, but to be an ongoing, living abiding, enduring, faith-ing.

πιστευωνG4100 V-PAP-NSM

Tense: Present
Voice: Active
Mood: Participle
Case: Nominative
Number: Singular
Gender: Masculine

"Present" Tense:

"Present Tense - Continuous action, Habitual action, often reflects a lifestyle; In moods other than in the indicative mood, it refers only to continuous or repeated action.

Active Voice - Verbs in active voice picture the subject as the one who performs, produces or experiences the action or exercises a certain activity. Active voice represents the action as being accomplished by the subject of the verb." - http://www.preceptau...new_page_40.htm

"Participle" is formed from a verb, we see:

"Remember that since a participle is formed from a verb, it has verbal characteristics, such as voice and tense / aspect (you have thus far seen “present” participles, which represents continuous action, in the middle voice.). Since the participle is an adjective, it also has adjectival characteristics: case, number, and gender. ...

...As you can see, the forms of the present active participle have third declension endings when they modify masculine nouns. This will also be true when they modify neuter nouns. ...

...Thus, to form the present active participle, masculine and neuter, in Greek, add -ont- and 3rd declension endings to the present stem. (Note that the nominative singular, masculine is -wn and the nominative singular neuter -on). The feminine equivalent is declined in the first declension, with -ousa etc. added to the stem." - http://www.vroma.org...schapeight.html


Therefore, the "believeth", must be and is to be continual, perpetual, ongoing, without ceasing upon our part, and not a one time past event; for without present and currently living faith it is impossible to please Him {Hebrews 11:6}.

Therefore, yes, we which "believeth" continually, yes even unto the end {Matthew 24:13; Mark 13;13}, have eternal life and shall not come into the condemnatin of the 2nd death, and therefore it is eternal life, since Christ Jesus [who is the Head] can no longer die ["...dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him." Romans 6:9], for eternal life is "through" [Romans 6:23] Him.

The promise to not enter into the Second Death, is conditional based upon what one continually and stedfastly "believeth" [true Biblical Faith, not merely mental ascent, but the Faith which produces, that faith which is demonstrable...] unto the end.

It has nothing to do with saving ones self, but merely taking hold of the promises of God, through Faith. It is merely utilizing what God has given as a gift. However, that gift may be spurned, cast aside, thrown away, not utilized, etc.

So Biblical salvation theology says that I can have assurance of salvation, that I can believe that Jesus Christ is the Author and Finisher of my Faith, and yet leave me with the choice that God has given me to either continue to believe ["patience", "continuance", "abide", "remain in", "endure unto the end"; etc] that or to refuse it at any point altogether in my walk with Him.

The 'god' of OSAS, Irresistible Grace, and 'false' Predestination, so distorts and mutilates the actual character of God, that it is a cruel mockery to continue to proclaim it, and it is an image of satan foisted upon God, claiming all the while that it is God.

God does not rape the free will he gave unto us as His gift to us. [If any deny free will, they deny the free will sacrifice of Christ Jesus, and cannot possibly understand His words in Gethsemane] God will never force anyone to worship Him, ever. God will take no one to Heaven who does not want to be with Him - it would be 'hell' to them.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Matthew ten Verseight

Messenger with a Message from Jesus
Aug 5, 2019
122
45
Pacific
Visit site
✟9,244.00
Country
United States
Faith
Protestant
Marital Status
Private
OSAS teaches that:

[1] Once 'saved' [insert self definition], you cannot ever be lost.

How then did Lucifer ever come to sin, or Adam or Eve? is there free choice or not? Remember, before Lucifer sinned, there was no sin. Which means His relationship with God was perfect (Eze. 28:15). Did God make Lucifer purposefully to sin? Shall any dare to say God made satan, and so perpetuates sin? is the author of sin? Yet that is exactly what OSAS boils down to. Don't think so?, a few simple questions clear it right up.
 
Upvote 0