How Many Books Are in Your Bible? 66? 73? 81?

CharismaticLady said:

I'm not sure if you are referring to Enoch Book 1 or 2, but the first book was around during the first century, and was quoted by Jude, and if I'm not mistaken, by Peter also. The problem with Enoch 1 is that it has been added to, so don't know what was original, and what was added. I've never bothered to read the second book by that name.

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ViaCrucis said:

There's no reason to bring in number mysticism into the number of canonical books.

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Major1 said:

IMO it means that the Creator was a mathematician.

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Major1 said:

The quote I posted was from Enoch 1.

First of all, the book of Enoch was not considered scripture by the Christian Church. There was some discussion on its canonicity by a few people, but the Christian Church did not include it in the Bible.

Second, Jude only quoted something that was true in Enoch and it does not mean that Enoch was inspired. In fact, Paul quotes Epimenides in Titus 1:12 but that does not mean that Epimenides was inspired either.

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Major1 said:

First of all, the book of Enoch was not considered scripture by the Christian Church. There was some discussion on its canonicity by a few people, but the Christian Church did not include it in the Bible.

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ViaCrucis said:

Scripture does present certain numbers of symbolic significance. This does not translate into forcing certain numbers upon things, such as the number of books in the Canon.

We believe in one God, Holy Trinity, the three Divine Hypostases are three; if we were to argue that seven is a more important number and therefore force a Septuinity we would be engaging in heresy. Obviously no one is insisting we do this, but the point is that we don't force or constrain Christian faith and practice into conforming to some kind of mystical number pattern. There are seven lampstands and seven churches because there were actually seven churches to whom the Apocalypse was written to. There were twelve tribes of Israel, and twelve Apostles (yes, very likely Jesus chose the Twelve because of the symbolism with the twelve tribes, Jesus and His Church representing and consisting of a Renewed, Redeemed Israel). Historically baptismals and church architecture involved the number eight (octogonal baptismals and church architecture are common, along with cross-shaped baptismals and church architecture), why eight? Because early Christian teaching spoke of the day when Christ rose from the dead as the "eighth day of creation", and so the number eight was symbolic of redemption.

Seven is not inherently better than three, or five, or four, or six or eleven (etc). Seven does have some symbolism, just as twelve has some symbolism. Five has symbolism as well (the five wounds of Christ, the five loaves and fishes, etc). But these numbers, while having symbolic significance, are not mystical or magical. We do not shoehorn Christian faith and practice into certain numbers.

Churches and baptismals do not have to be octogonal, but they often were historically because of the symbolism of the number eight.

Symbols are helpful for us, as humans. To attribute esoteric, occult meaning to things like numbers is erroneous and wrong.

It can be helpful, for example, to speak of the "Seven Virtues" for teaching purposes, not because somehow counting less or more cardinal virtues would be invalid or less godly.

When it comes to how many books are in the Canon, the number of books should be based upon which books are, indeed, Canon. And what is and is not Canon, historically, is which books have been in consistent use by the Church throughout history. There has, and remains, dispute over some books, and so there remain open-ended questions. But we do not arbitrarily choose to add or remove books by appeal to some mystical number. There are as many books in the Canon as there should be--and the only way to define, once and for all, that question requires ultimately the consenting voice of the Church once and for all. That will only happen through a truly Ecumenical Council. And the last time an Ecumenical Council took place (at least as agreed upon by the majority of Christian denominations and traditions) was the Second Council of Nicea held in the 8th century. The exception to this is that Rome counts more, the Non-Chalcedonian Oriental Orthodox count fewer.

As such we shouldn't hold our breath for something like this to happen. And so the question of the canonicity of certain books will continue to be disputed among Christians for the foreseeable future. It's not ideal, but it is preferable to individuals deciding to arbitrarily pick and choose. This is not a matter for individuals, but for the Church catholic.

-CryptoLutheran

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CharismaticLady said:

He even takes the time to number the hairs on our head. LOL

We are to study to show ourselves approved, and to me that means observing His ways.

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CharismaticLady said:

If you don't want to be observant of God's ways, that doesn't concern me.

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ViaCrucis said:

Enoch is never mentioned anywhere in the historic discussions about the Canon. I'm not aware of it being debated or included in lists where it is described as either included or disputed.

And the only historical church(es) which have ever accepted it are the Ethiopian and Eritrean Tawehedo Churches.

As such bringing up Enoch in discussion about the Deuterocanonical Books is entirely insignificant.

-CryptoLutehran

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Major1 said:

There were a couple, the Ethiopian is just one of them -- as such were considered fraudulent and not accepted as canonical either by Jews or Christians of the first century and onward. (With a few exceptions.) Their contents make it abundantly clear they cannot in their entirety have been written by the Biblical Enoch. They are late (2nd to 1st century BC and onward) forgeries by Jewish apocalyptic writers.

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ViaCrucis said:

There are more numbers of symbolic meaning in the Bible than just seven.

Why not arbitrarily decide the Canon should be divisible by twelve? Since it is arbitrary.

-CryptoLutheran

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ViaCrucis said:

Would you care to provide an actual rebuttal?

-CryptoLutheran

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Major1 said:

The Apocrypha is un-scriptural and in some case Occultic.

Allow me to give you just one example.

Enoch 40:9...…...
"seen and whose words I have heard and written down?’ And he said to me: ‘This first is Michael, the merciful and long-suffering: and the second, who is set over all the diseases and all the wounds of the children of men, is Raphael: and the third, who is set over all the powers, is Gabriel: and the fourth, who is set over the repentance unto hope of those who inherit eternal life, is named Phanuel.’
And these are the four angels of the Lord of Spirits and the four voices I heard in those days.

The Bible never mentions an angel named Phanuel, or Raphael let alone an angel who is set over the repentance of those who inherit eternal life. That my dear friends is what the Bible calls blasphemy!

That statement in itself contradicts everything the Word of God teaches. We read in 1st Timothy 2:5 that Jesus Christ is the ONLY Mediator between God and men, not some angel named Phanuel... "For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus."

Repentance is strictly between a man and Jesus Christ alone. Only Jesus died for our sins, and shed His blood to pay for them according to 1st Peter 1:18-19; therefore, we must be diligent to guard and defend against imposters who would lead people to believe otherwise.

1st John 2:22 clearly indicts all Christ-deniers as LIARS, guilty before God.

There are examples just like this one in ALL of the Apochraphael books so IMO they ALL should be rejected.

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Major1 said:

I respectfully disagree.

There is a valid reason why all of those books were excluded from the canon centuries ago and nothing has changed.

None of those productions are inspired. If, for example, John had written something that did not agree with works of Moses, we would be obliged to reject Gospel and epistles of John, and the Revelation.

The first five books of the Bible are criterion for all other works claiming inspiration. If doctrines of Apocrypha do not in every instance agree with what Moses wrote, they should find no place in the canon of the Inspired Word.

Apocryphal books teach doctrines contrary to what Moses and other prophets have written. For this reason they were not placed among other books of Old Testament when canonicity took place in days of Ezra.

The real question must be----- Why does the Catholic Church continue to hold on to these uninspired writings ?

There is actually a really simple answer.......
Because their fictitious teachings endorse false doctrines of church, such as prayers for dead, Purgatory, false cures, virtue in a burning heart of a fish to drive devils away, alms deeds delivering from death and sin, salvation by works.

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thecolorsblend said:

Separately, the posts quoted below include sections plagiarized from various sources online.

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Garlic Magnet said:

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I'm genuinely interested in hearing about how many books are in a canon. The number varies greatly.

The Lutheran Position on this subject is unique. While today, especially in the West, Lutherans keep and utilize Bibles with the 66 standard Protestant books, Lutherans have never been confessionally bound to any particular canon. We don't necessarily have an "Open Canon" in the sense that there is still room for further revelation and creation of new Scripture, but we also are yet to have a formal closed canon. The Book of Concord never gives a definitive list which Lutherans must follow. (In fact, I have heard IIRC that Eastern Rite Lutherans read from books rejected by Protestants at their liturgies). It is infamously known that Martin Luther held a personal negative disposition with regards to the Apocrypha/Esther and the New Testament books of Hebrews, James, Jude, and Revelation, even to the extent of separating them from other books at the end of each of their respective Testaments.

In defense of Luther's actions, Lutherans point out that he was simply making a distinction which was present in various forms and at different times in the early church: the separation of Homologoumena and Antilogomena. Homologoumena are simply those books upon which there was perfect consensus and always had been (with the exception of heretics such as Marcion). Antilogomena are those books which have been debated at one point or another as to their authorship and/or divine inspiration.

The only other Christian tradition which I can find to be remotely similar to Lutheranism is that of the Ethiopian Tewahedo Orthodox Church. Within their Biblical canon, they have a similar dichotomy, albeit with a closed canon: the "Narrow" Canon and "Broad" Canon.

Are there any Oriental Orthodox more familiar with the Tewahedo canon who can weigh in on this for me? Thoughts? This has always been a personal issue for me as I don't know how we could ever have true ecumenism when we don't even have the same text to debate.

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CharismaticLady said:

Have you ever heard of Dr. Ivan Panin. I'm a great fan, and over a 50 year span he made a discovery that there are many things in the Bible that are exactly divisible by 7. I'll see if I can find Chuck Missler's study on it in youtube and put it at the end. It is not mysticism, but science. He determined that 7 was the "signature of God."

You are right, there are other numbers that are representative of God - 3, being one, and 4 another; and of course 12. But, 6 is always associated with man.

Complete study over an hour:

Partials:
Sevens in the Bible:

Mark 16:9-20:

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ViaCrucis said:

What you are talking about is occultism, in the literal sense, the study of the hidden. The belief that there are hidden truths that must be uncovered through some sort of spiritual method or system.

God's revelation is not a puzzle that we're supposed to figure out. God's revelation is the public, loud proclamation of Jesus Christ, and all which God has done for us and the whole world through Jesus.

Scripture is a complex tapestry of literature, there's no mistake about it, containing history, propositional statements, as well as allegory, figures of speech, and other expressions of language. But at the end of the day the Word found in Scripture is clear, because the Word of Scripture is single and bright, because that Word is Jesus Christ, crucified and risen from the dead for us, for you, for me, for the whole world.

I'm not interested in numerology. I'm not interested in occultism and various forms of esoteric woo. I'm interested in the Gospel of Jesus Christ and what it means to faithfully preach that Gospel here in the world and live my life as a faithful disciple of Jesus toward my neighbor. As I learn what it means to die daily and to take up my cross and follow after Him. Falling down, failing, messing up, often very badly--and through it all knowing that my faith and hope will never be put to shame because it is found on the only solid foundation, the Chief Cornerstone Himself, Jesus Christ our Lord. All else is sinking sand.

-CryptoLutheran

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CharismaticLady said:

Occult? Numerology? What like in occult circles? Did Satan create something? Is he a god? No, he only perverts what God has already created. Someone would have to be blind to not see the obvious ones of God in Scripture. But there are hidden ones too, for those who are seekers of knowing God fully desire to find - and do. Now as far as the occult - Satan's perversion is why many who live in houses where some ignorant fool has opened the door to the occult by an Ouija board, or tarot cards, hear knocks - either one or three, both pertaining to one God, but a Trinity, get attacked, and are usually scratched with one or three long scratches, the perversion of the numbers pertaining to the true God. Knowing this has made me "gentle as a dove, but wise as a serpent." I can't be caught unawares. But I've seen many Christians having an Ouija board they bought for their kids as a game, and think nothing of it.

You may pride yourself in the simple message of the gospel, and that's wonderful if you have all the message that is required for salvation that others strive to find and have found, stay there if you like. Though if you stay within the confines of the teachings of Martin Luther, and no truths beyond...

As for me, I am excited to know the hidden mysteries that show the power and sovereignty of God that started from the Creation of the world. Finding each one is thrilling, and is part of knowing the reality that there actually is a God and He inspired not just the thoughts of man, but every letter, even the spacing between the letters of His Word. No human with a billion computers could do what God has done. It is wonderful to convert a hard cord Atheist! I even taught Chuck Missler (from the videos you probably weren't interested in enough to watch) one of the mysteries that I found and promised to send him my book, (one of three I've titled "The Hidden Mystery Behind ..." Each last word in the title, a different subject in the New Testament.)


Luke 8:10
And He said, “To you it has been given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God, but to the rest it is given in parables, that ‘Seeing they may not see, And hearing they may not understand.’
Romans 11:25
For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own opinion, that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in.

Romans 11:25
For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own opinion, that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in.

Romans 16:25
[ Benediction ] Now to Him who is able to establish you according to my gospel and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery kept secret since the world began

1 Corinthians 2:7
But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, the hidden wisdom which God ordained before the ages for our glory,

1 Corinthians 4:1
[ Stewards of the Mysteries of God ] Let a man so consider us, as servants of Christ and stewards of the mysteries of God.

1 Corinthians 13:2
And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing.

1 Corinthians 14:2
For he who speaks in a tongue does not speak to men but to God, for no one understands him; however, in the spirit he speaks mysteries.

1 Corinthians 15:51
Behold, I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed—

Ephesians 1:9
having made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His good pleasure which He purposed in Himself,

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ViaCrucis said:

When I say "occult" I'm not referring to the demonic, I'm referring to the idea of hidden knowledge. That's what the word means. Occultism may be demonic in that it involves false spirituality and is therefore diabolical lies--as the devil was a liar from the beginning--but that's not its principle meaning.

Further you are applying the common English meaning of mystery. In Greek a mysterion is a revealed truth, not a hidden truth. The divine mysteries of the Christian religion are not hidden, esoteric, occult puzzles; they are truths that could not be known except by revelation.

A mystery is a revealed truth.

The mystery of the Gospel isn't that the Gospel is something that we have to figure out like a puzzle, but rather something that has been made known to us and the whole world through the revelation which Go has given us--openly and publicly--through the sending of His only-begotten Son. For "the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory of the only-begotten of the Father full of grace and truth".

We have come to know these truths because God has told us, clearly and plainly, through the Revelation of Himself, His own Word made flesh, Jesus Christ our Lord. And so we encounter and read of this Word in the pages of Holy Scripture, so that by our hearing and reading of these precious and holy Scriptures the divine truth of Christ, of Christ living, incarnate, crucified, risen, and coming again, for our salvation and the salvation of the whole world. For this is the great Mystery of our religion, "God became man" (1 Timothy 3:16).

-CryptoLutheran

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CharismaticLady said:

You don't know that all things occult are demonic?

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Numerology is occult and of the devil. Is that why you are reckless with these words when it comes to the hidden mysteries of God and His use of numbers?

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The Pharisees were reckless too with their accusations against Jesus. You seem to think you know all those mysteries. Your knowledge is like the top of an iceberg. I like to dig deep.

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