GOD'S WORD vs TRADITIONS OF MEN; Sabbath vs Sunday

Matthew ten Verseight

Messenger with a Message from Jesus
Aug 5, 2019
122
45
Pacific
Visit site
✟9,244.00
Country
United States
Faith
Protestant
Marital Status
Private
Deut 5:1 Hear, Israel, the decrees and the laws I declare in your hearing today. Learn them and be sure to follow them. 2 The Lord our God made a covenant with us at Horeb. 3 It was not with our ancestors that the Lord made this covenant, but with us, with all of us who are alive here today.

It would seem like Moses and you have some differences as to when the command to observe Sabbath came to be.
Not at all. There are two covenants in Exodus 19 mentioned. Moses was referring to their agreement in Exodus 19, aka old covenant made with them then and there. Moses was not referring to God's covenant, aka Ten Commandments, which existed from eternity.
 
Upvote 0

Matthew ten Verseight

Messenger with a Message from Jesus
Aug 5, 2019
122
45
Pacific
Visit site
✟9,244.00
Country
United States
Faith
Protestant
Marital Status
Private
I know SDAs like to assume that Abraham was a payor of tithes on his income, but that is not what scripture tells us.

Gen_14:20 And blessed be the most high God, which hath delivered thine enemies into thy hand. And he gave him tithes of all.

Heb 7:1 For this Melchisedec, king of Salem, priest of the most high God, who met Abraham returning from the slaughter of the kings, and blessed him;
Heb 7:2 To whom also Abraham gave a tenth part of all; first being by interpretation King of righteousness, and after that also King of Salem, which is, King of peace;
Heb 7:3 Without father, without mother, without descent, having neither beginning of days, nor end of life; but made like unto the Son of God; abideth a priest continually.
Heb 7:4 Now consider how great this man was, unto whom even the patriarch Abraham gave the tenth of the spoils.
Heb 7:5 And verily they that are of the sons of Levi, who receive the office of the priesthood, have a commandment to take tithes of the people according to the law, that is, of their brethren, though they come out of the loins of Abraham:
Heb 7:6 But he whose descent is not counted from them received tithes of Abraham, and blessed him that had the promises.
Heb 7:7 And without all contradiction the less is blessed of the better.
Heb 7:8 And here men that die receive tithes; but there he receiveth them, of whom it is witnessed that he liveth.
Heb 7:9 And as I may so say, Levi also, who receiveth tithes, payed tithes in Abraham.
Heb 7:10 For he was yet in the loins of his father, when Melchisedec met him.
Jesus Compared to Melchizedek
Heb 7:11 If therefore perfection were by the Levitical priesthood, (for under it the people received the law,) what further need was there that another priest should rise after the order of Melchisedec, and not be called after the order of Aaron?
Heb 7:12 For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law.
Heb 7:13 For he of whom these things are spoken pertaineth to another tribe, of which no man gave attendance at the altar.
Heb 7:14 For it is evident that our Lord sprang out of Juda; of which tribe Moses spake nothing concerning priesthood.
Heb 7:15 And it is yet far more evident: for that after the similitude of Melchisedec there ariseth another priest,
Heb 7:16 Who is made, not after the law of a carnal commandment, but after the power of an endless life.
Heb 7:17 For he testifieth, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec.
Heb 7:18 For there is verily a disannulling of the commandment going before for the weakness and unprofitableness thereof.
Heb 7:19 For the law made nothing perfect, but the bringing in of a better hope did; by the which we draw nigh unto God.
Heb 7:20 And inasmuch as not without an oath he was made priest:
Heb 7:21 (For those priests were made without an oath; but this with an oath by him that said unto him, The Lord sware and will not repent, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec:)
Heb 7:22 By so much was Jesus made a surety of a better testament.
Heb 7:23 And they truly were many priests, because they were not suffered to continue by reason of death:
Heb 7:24 But this man, because he continueth ever, hath an unchangeable priesthood.
Heb 7:25 Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them.
Heb 7:26 For such an high priest became us, who is holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and made higher than the heavens;
Heb 7:27 Who needeth not daily, as those high priests, to offer up sacrifice, first for his own sins, and then for the people's: for this he did once, when he offered up himself.
Heb 7:28 For the law maketh men high priests which have infirmity; but the word of the oath, which was since the law, maketh the Son, who is consecrated for evermore.
 
Upvote 0

Matthew ten Verseight

Messenger with a Message from Jesus
Aug 5, 2019
122
45
Pacific
Visit site
✟9,244.00
Country
United States
Faith
Protestant
Marital Status
Private
You would like to deny verses like 2Cor3:7-11 and Eph 2:15.
2 Cor 3:

There are two glories spoken of in 2 Corinthians 3.

[1] the glory of the law of God

[2] the glory of Moses face.

The context and the Koine Greek endings demonstrate that the 2n glory was "done away" with.

Look:

2Co 3:6 Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.
2Co 3:7 But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away:
2Co 3:8 How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious?
2Co 3:9 For if the ministration of condemnation be glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory.
2Co 3:10 For even that which was made glorious had no glory in this respect, by reason of the glory that excelleth.
2Co 3:11 For if that which is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious.

There are several things in 2 Corinthians 3.

[1] Law (doesn't change, stays, "remaineth")

[2] ministration (changes), how the Law is administered

[3] glories (differing glories)

The glory of the Law as seen in Moses face goes away

the glory of the Law in the life and face of Jesus Christ remaineth and is more glorious.

2Co 4:4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.
2Co 4:5 For we preach not ourselves, but Christ Jesus the Lord; and ourselves your servants for Jesus' sake.
2Co 4:6 For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.

[4] Mediator (differing mediators)

Moses ('old covenant'; Exodus 19:8)

Jesus (eternal covenant; Malachi 2:5; Jeremiah 31; Hebrews 8, etc)

[5] location (differing locations)

tables of stone

tables of the fleshy heart (the brain is two hemispheres, two tables)

[6] Holy Ghost (doesn't change)

The Law of God brings death, why?

Rom_6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Jas_1:15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.

1Jn 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

Rom_7:10 And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death.

But it was ordained to Life, not death.

Through the Holy Ghost, who writes the "my (God's) law" upon the heart, the Law is able to be fulfilled in the life:

Rom_8:4 That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

But if the ministration of death, written [and] engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which [glory] was to be done away: 2 Corinthians 3:7

What was the "glory" that was to be done away?

Why? For a greater glory than the glory of Moses face, which was merely reflection of the Glory of God from the Law written in Stone, was to be seen directly in the face of Jesus Christ, God's glory and His Law directly seen in the Life lived perfectly, the Law as it is to be in the heart, from love to God, Divinity clothed in humanity, the likeness of sinful flesh, the same flesh we have, victorious over all temptation, condemned sin in the flesh...

For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to [give] the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ. 2 Corinthians 4:6

As for Colossians 2, Ephesians 2 and Hebrews 9-10:

Ephesians 2 parallels that of Colossians 2 and Hebrews 9-10 in language, and speaks of 'ordinances', even that which is 'carnal' and was typical of "things to come".

The 4th Commandment, the 7th day the sabbath of the LORD commandment is "spiritual", Rom. 7:14 and not typical, but rather whose function always points out sin, and is for "Remember", being a memorial, an at-one-ment, a bringing together as one. The 4th commandment, yea even the Ten Commandments are never called 'ordinances' in all of scripture.
 
Upvote 0

Matthew ten Verseight

Messenger with a Message from Jesus
Aug 5, 2019
122
45
Pacific
Visit site
✟9,244.00
Country
United States
Faith
Protestant
Marital Status
Private
Gal 3 blows Adventism out of the water.
How? We teach Galatians 3:

Gal 3:11 But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God, it is evident: for, The just shall live by faith.

Obedience in salvation is not salvation by obedience.
 
Upvote 0

ralliann

christian
Jun 27, 2007
6,112
1,696
✟202,059.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Widowed
Fifty percent isn't that bad now, is it? :oldthumbsup: Deut 5:1 Hear, Israel, the decrees and the laws I declare in your hearing today. Learn them and be sure to follow them. 2 The Lord our God made a covenant with us at Horeb. 3 It was not with our ancestors that the Lord made this covenant, but with us, with all of us who are alive here today.

It would seem like Moses and you have some differences as to when the command to observe Sabbath came to be. I know SDAs like to assume that Abraham was a payor of tithes on his income, but that is not what scripture tells us. You would like to assume there is a 10 in front of commandments in the New Testament, but that is not what scripture tells us. You would like to deny verses like 2Cor3:7-11 and Eph 2:15. Gal 3 blows Adventism out of the water. All kinds of excuses are made concerning Col 2. It appears to be either the Bible or, not and, Mrs. White. I had to make that decision. I am so glad I chose the Bible.
I think Eph 2:15 is misunderstood just as they misunderstand Ephesians 2:11-12.
And the significance of the disannulling of the carnal commandment.

Ephesians two here is speaking of the difference between Jew and Gentile in times past being the covenant kept in
Abrahams flesh.
Ge 17:13 He that is born in thy house, and he that is bought with thy money, must needs be circumcised: and my Covenant shall be in your flesh for an everlasting covenant.

The nation of Israel as a commonwealth which citizenship was by circumcision in the flesh. But Ephesians 2:12 is speaking of the priesthood as the anointed one. The names of all twelve tribes were named upon both the high priests shoulders and upon the breastplate of decision. The nations did not have "Christs" ie anointed ones to bear their names as a representative agency before God. Apart from circumcision you had no tribal affiliation and therefore were not named or represented before God.
See the Greek and Hebrew for this.

In the Hebrew it literally says
Le 4:5 And the priest that is anointed <04899> (Messiah) shall take of the bullock’s blood, and bring it to the tabernacle of the congregation:

Le 4:16 And the priest that is anointed <04899> (Messiah) shall bring of the bullock’s blood to the tabernacle of the congregation:

Le 6:22 And the priest of his sons that is anointed <04899> (Messiah) in his stead shall offer it: it is a statute for ever unto the LORD; it shall be wholly burnt.

04899 משׁיח mashiyach maw-shee’-akh
from 04886, Greek 3323 Μεσσιας; n m; [BDB-603b] {See TWOT on 1255 @@ "1255c"}
AV-anointed 37, Messiah 2; 39
1) anointed, anointed one
1a) of the Messiah, Messianic prince
1b) of the king of Israel
1c) of the high priest of Israel
1d) of Cyrus
1e) of the patriarchs as anointed kings

Eph 2:11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;
12 That at that time ye were without Christ <5547>, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
5547 Χριστός Christos khris-tos’
from 5548; adj; TDNT-9:493,1322; {See TDNT 850}
AV-Christ 569; 569
Christ = "anointed"
1) Christ was the Messiah, the Son of God
2) anointed
See the same verses above in the Greek LXX
Le 4:5 και λαβων ο ιερευς ο χριστος ο τετελειωμενος τας χειρας απο του αιματος του μοσχου και εισοισει αυτο επι την σκηνην του μαρτυριου

Le 4:16 και εισοισει ο ιερευς ο χριστος απο του αιματος του μοσχου εις την σκηνην του μαρτυριου

Le 6:22 (6:15) ο ιερευς ο χριστος αντ αυτου εκ των υιων αυτου ποιησει αυτην νομος αιωνιος απαν επιτελεσθησεται


I believe what Ephesians is saying is that before Jesus the Christ we had no Christ to stand before God in this world. We had no tribal name being born before God in the Levitical high priesthood, but now in Jesus the Christ we do....WE ALL DO.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Matthew ten Verseight

Messenger with a Message from Jesus
Aug 5, 2019
122
45
Pacific
Visit site
✟9,244.00
Country
United States
Faith
Protestant
Marital Status
Private
It appears to be either the Bible or, not and, Mrs. White. I had to make that decision. I am so glad I chose the Bible.
I choose what the Bible says, Isaiah 8:20. I accept the (tested and proven) messengers that God sends.

1Th 5:19 Quench not the Spirit.
1Th 5:20 Despise not prophesyings.
1Th 5:21 Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.

1Co_12:28 And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.

Eph_4:11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
 
Upvote 0

Bob S

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Dec 5, 2015
4,598
2,211
88
Union County, TN
✟662,505.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Not at all. There are two covenants in Exodus 19 mentioned. Moses was referring to their agreement in Exodus 19, aka old covenant made with them then and there. Moses was not referring to God's covenant, aka Ten Commandments, which existed from eternity.
You have to be kidding. The 10 were exactly what Moses was referring. Read:
Deuteronomy 5 New International Version - UK (NIVUK)
The Ten Commandments
5 Moses summoned all Israel and said:

Hear, Israel, the decrees and the laws I declare in your hearing today. Learn them and be sure to follow them. 2 The Lord our God made a covenant with us at Horeb. 3 It was not with our ancestors that the Lord made this covenant, but with us, with all of us who are alive here today. 4 The Lord spoke to you face to face out of the fire on the mountain. 5 (At that time I stood between the Lord and you to declare to you the word of the Lord, because you were afraid of the fire and did not go up the mountain.) And he said:

6 ‘I am the Lord your God, who brought you out of Egypt, out of the land of slavery.

7 ‘You shall have no other gods before me.

8 ‘You shall not make for yourself an image in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below. 9 You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the parents to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me, 10 but showing love to a thousand generations of those who love me and keep my commandments.

11 ‘You shall not misuse the name of the Lord your God, for the Lordwill not hold anyone guiltless who misuses his name.

12 ‘Observe the Sabbath day by keeping it holy, as the Lord your God has commanded you. 13 Six days you shall labour and do all your work, 14 but the seventh day is a sabbath to the Lord your God. On it you shall not do any work, neither you, nor your son or daughter, nor your male or female servant, nor your ox, your donkey or any of your animals, nor any foreigner residing in your towns, so that your male and female servants may rest, as you do. 15 Remember that you were slaves in Egypt and that the Lord your God brought you out of there with a mighty hand and an outstretched arm. Therefore the Lord your God has commanded you to observe the Sabbath day.

16 ‘Honour your father and your mother, as the Lord your God has commanded you, so that you may live long and that it may go well with you in the land the Lord your God is giving you.

17 ‘You shall not murder.

18 ‘You shall not commit adultery.

19 ‘You shall not steal.

20 ‘You shall not give false testimony against your neighbour.

21 ‘You shall not covet your neighbour’s wife. You shall not set your desire on your neighbour’s house or land, his male or female servant, his ox or donkey, or anything that belongs to your neighbour.’


22 These are the commandments the Lord proclaimed in a loud voice to your whole assembly there on the mountain from out of the fire, the cloud and the deep darkness; and he added nothing more. Then he wrote them on two stone tablets and gave them to me.
 
Upvote 0

Matthew ten Verseight

Messenger with a Message from Jesus
Aug 5, 2019
122
45
Pacific
Visit site
✟9,244.00
Country
United States
Faith
Protestant
Marital Status
Private
I believe what Ephesians is saying
That's what Peter called "private interpretation" (2 Peter 1:20), and is not how scripture is to be interpreted (Genesis 40:8).
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

ralliann

christian
Jun 27, 2007
6,112
1,696
✟202,059.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Widowed
That's what Peter called "private interpretation" (2 Peter 1:20), and is not how scripture is to be interpreted (Genesis 40:8).
No, I gave you what the high priest is called in the Hebrew. The high priest is a Christ a Messiah, the kings were anointed ones also Christs and Messiahs. So too were the prophets.
And the high Priest did bear the Children of Israels names before God in his holy vestments. Those are just facts. If you were not circumcised in the foreskin of the flesh, you had no appearance by name in the holy place.
 
Upvote 0

Bob S

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Dec 5, 2015
4,598
2,211
88
Union County, TN
✟662,505.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Gen_14:20 And blessed be the most high God, which hath delivered thine enemies into thy hand. And he gave him tithes of all.

Heb 7:1 For this Melchisedec, king of Salem, priest of the most high God, who met Abraham returning from the slaughter of the kings, and blessed him;
Heb 7:2 To whom also Abraham gave a tenth part of all; first being by interpretation King of righteousness, and after that also King of Salem, which is, King of peace;
Heb 7:3 Without father, without mother, without descent, having neither beginning of days, nor end of life; but made like unto the Son of God; abideth a priest continually.
Heb 7:4 Now consider how great this man was, unto whom even the patriarch Abraham gave the tenth of the spoils.
Heb 7:5 And verily they that are of the sons of Levi, who receive the office of the priesthood, have a commandment to take tithes of the people according to the law, that is, of their brethren, though they come out of the loins of Abraham:
Heb 7:6 But he whose descent is not counted from them received tithes of Abraham, and blessed him that had the promises.
Heb 7:7 And without all contradiction the less is blessed of the better.
Heb 7:8 And here men that die receive tithes; but there he receiveth them, of whom it is witnessed that he liveth.
Heb 7:9 And as I may so say, Levi also, who receiveth tithes, payed tithes in Abraham.
Heb 7:10 For he was yet in the loins of his father, when Melchisedec met him.
Jesus Compared to Melchizedek
Heb 7:11 If therefore perfection were by the Levitical priesthood, (for under it the people received the law,) what further need was there that another priest should rise after the order of Melchisedec, and not be called after the order of Aaron?
Heb 7:12 For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law.
Heb 7:13 For he of whom these things are spoken pertaineth to another tribe, of which no man gave attendance at the altar.
Heb 7:14 For it is evident that our Lord sprang out of Juda; of which tribe Moses spake nothing concerning priesthood.
Heb 7:15 And it is yet far more evident: for that after the similitude of Melchisedec there ariseth another priest,
Heb 7:16 Who is made, not after the law of a carnal commandment, but after the power of an endless life.
Heb 7:17 For he testifieth, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec.
Heb 7:18 For there is verily a disannulling of the commandment going before for the weakness and unprofitableness thereof.
Heb 7:19 For the law made nothing perfect, but the bringing in of a better hope did; by the which we draw nigh unto God.
Heb 7:20 And inasmuch as not without an oath he was made priest:
Heb 7:21 (For those priests were made without an oath; but this with an oath by him that said unto him, The Lord sware and will not repent, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec:)
Heb 7:22 By so much was Jesus made a surety of a better testament.
Heb 7:23 And they truly were many priests, because they were not suffered to continue by reason of death:
Heb 7:24 But this man, because he continueth ever, hath an unchangeable priesthood.
Heb 7:25 Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them.
Heb 7:26 For such an high priest became us, who is holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and made higher than the heavens;
Heb 7:27 Who needeth not daily, as those high priests, to offer up sacrifice, first for his own sins, and then for the people's: for this he did once, when he offered up himself.
Heb 7:28 For the law maketh men high priests which have infirmity; but the word of the oath, which was since the law, maketh the Son, who is consecrated for evermore.
The fact remains that scripture never says that Abraham paid tithe of his earnings. He paid tithe on the spoils of war. That is it.
 
  • Agree
Reactions: klutedavid
Upvote 0

Bob S

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Dec 5, 2015
4,598
2,211
88
Union County, TN
✟662,505.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
I choose what the Bible says, Isaiah 8:20. I accept the (tested and proven) messengers that God sends.

1Th 5:19 Quench not the Spirit.
1Th 5:20 Despise not prophesyings.
1Th 5:21 Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.

1Co_12:28 And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.

Eph_4:11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;
I understand. The real fact is Ellen was a false prophet. That fact has been proven over and over.
 
Upvote 0

Bob S

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Dec 5, 2015
4,598
2,211
88
Union County, TN
✟662,505.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Not at all. I continue to show you of the two covenants there, but you can only seem to find one.
You wrote that the Deut account of the covenant's laws were not the 10 commandments. That was not in any way the truth. I fear you really do not know what you are talking about. Bone up on the covenants and then come back and discuss them.
 
Upvote 0

Bob S

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Dec 5, 2015
4,598
2,211
88
Union County, TN
✟662,505.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
I think Eph 2:15 is misunderstood just as they misunderstand Ephesians 2:11-12.
And the significance of the disannulling of the carnal commandment.

Ephesians two here is speaking of the difference between Jew and Gentile in times past being the covenant kept in
Abrahams flesh.
Ge 17:13 He that is born in thy house, and he that is bought with thy money, must needs be circumcised: and my Covenant shall be in your flesh for an everlasting covenant.

The nation of Israel as a commonwealth which citizenship was by circumcision in the flesh. But Ephesians 2:12 is speaking of the priesthood as the anointed one. The names of all twelve tribes were named upon both the high priests shoulders and upon the breastplate of decision. The nations did not have "Christs" ie anointed ones to bear their names as a representative agency before God. Apart from circumcision you had no tribal affiliation and therefore were not named or represented before God.
See the Greek and Hebrew for this.

In the Hebrew it literally says
Le 4:5 And the priest that is anointed <04899> (Messiah) shall take of the bullock’s blood, and bring it to the tabernacle of the congregation:

Le 4:16 And the priest that is anointed <04899> (Messiah) shall bring of the bullock’s blood to the tabernacle of the congregation:

Le 6:22 And the priest of his sons that is anointed <04899> (Messiah) in his stead shall offer it: it is a statute for ever unto the LORD; it shall be wholly burnt.

04899 משׁיח mashiyach maw-shee’-akh
from 04886, Greek 3323 Μεσσιας; n m; [BDB-603b] {See TWOT on 1255 @@ "1255c"}
AV-anointed 37, Messiah 2; 39
1) anointed, anointed one
1a) of the Messiah, Messianic prince
1b) of the king of Israel
1c) of the high priest of Israel
1d) of Cyrus
1e) of the patriarchs as anointed kings

Eph 2:11 Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;
12 That at that time ye were without Christ <5547>, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
5547 Χριστός Christos khris-tos’
from 5548; adj; TDNT-9:493,1322; {See TDNT 850}
AV-Christ 569; 569
Christ = "anointed"
1) Christ was the Messiah, the Son of God
2) anointed
See the same verses above in the Greek LXX
Le 4:5 και λαβων ο ιερευς ο χριστος ο τετελειωμενος τας χειρας απο του αιματος του μοσχου και εισοισει αυτο επι την σκηνην του μαρτυριου

Le 4:16 και εισοισει ο ιερευς ο χριστος απο του αιματος του μοσχου εις την σκηνην του μαρτυριου

Le 6:22 (6:15) ο ιερευς ο χριστος αντ αυτου εκ των υιων αυτου ποιησει αυτην νομος αιωνιος απαν επιτελεσθησεται


I believe what Ephesians is saying is that before Jesus the Christ we had no Christ to stand before God in this world. We had no tribal name being born before God in the Levitical high priesthood, but now in Jesus the Christ we do....WE ALL DO.
How can one misunderstand 14 For he himself is our peace, who has made the two groups one and has destroyed the barrier, the dividing wall of hostility, 15 by setting aside in his flesh the law with its commands and regulations. His purpose was to create in himself one new humanity out of the two, thus making peace, 16 and in one body to reconcile both of them to God through the cross, by which he put to death their hostility. 17 He came and preached peace to you who were far away and peace to those who were near. 18 For through him we both have access to the Father by one Spirit.

It was the law that separated Jews from Gentiles and Jesus fulfilled the Law at Calvary where He ushered in the new and better covenant and ratified it with His own blood. And He included Gentiles in the NC.

Your translating really does not impress me an iota. Scholars have done that for us, so that what we read we can be sure they used the best translation. The scripture tells us that the Law was set aside by Jesus.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

ralliann

christian
Jun 27, 2007
6,112
1,696
✟202,059.00
Country
United States
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Widowed
How can one misunderstand 14 For he himself is our peace, who has made the two groups one and has destroyed the barrier, the dividing wall of hostility, 15 by setting aside in his flesh the law with its commands and regulations. His purpose was to create in himself one new humanity out of the two, thus making peace, 16 and in one body to reconcile both of them to God through the cross, by which he put to death their hostility. 17 He came and preached peace to you who were far away and peace to those who were near. 18 For through him we both have access to the Father by one Spirit.

It was the law that separated Jews from Gentiles and Jesus fulfilled the Law at Calvary where He ushered in the new and better covenant and ratified it with His own blood. And He included Gentiles in the NC.

Your translating really does not impress me an iota. Scholars have done that for us, so that what we read we can be sure they used the best translation. The scripture tells us that the Law was set aside by Jesus.
Lots misunderstand it. Especially "Messianics". They teach we become citizens of Israel , by misapplying those verses.
I was not trying to impress you with translation but to prove a point To those which teach such things.
Gentiles simply did not have a priest to stand before God on their behalf. Now we do. We do not need to become citizens in the nation of Israel.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

klutedavid

Well-Known Member
Dec 7, 2013
9,346
4,381
Sydney, Australia.
✟244,844.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Single
"... in ordinances ...", also called 'carnal ordinances', the types.
You interpret the entire scripture to justify the Sabbath, that is not choosing what the scripture clearly states.

"...the Law of commandments contained in ordinances..." (Ephesians 2:14)
 
Upvote 0

Bob S

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Dec 5, 2015
4,598
2,211
88
Union County, TN
✟662,505.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
2 Cor 3:

There are two glories spoken of in 2 Corinthians 3.

[1] the glory of the law of God

[2] the glory of Moses face.
Not the way I read it. The Glory was radiating from the tables of stone. It was the reflection from the tablets that was on Moses face.
7 Now if the ministry that brought death, which was engraved in letters on stone, came with glory, so that the Israelites could not look steadily at the face of Moses because of its glory, transitory though it was, Was it Moses that was transitory? No, it was the 10 commandments that were transitory.

8 will not the ministry of the Spirit be even more glorious? It seems that your theory is that you are comparing the ministry of the Spirit with Moses face.

9 If the ministry that brought condemnation was glorious, how much more glorious is the ministry that brings righteousness! 10 For what was glorious has no glory now in comparison with the surpassing glory. 11 And if what was transitory came with glory, how much greater is the glory of that which lasts! It was the 10 commandments that came with Glory. What is it that is more glorious? It is a no brainer my friend, it is the Holy Spirit poured out to each of us, guiding us to live a righteous life in Christ. notice that Glory will last, but the ministry of death, the 10 commandments have faded because they were only temporary. Israel broke the covenant that contained the 10 commandments. Jesus ushered in the new covenant at Calvary.

The context and the Koine Greek endings demonstrate that the 2n glory was "done away" with.
There were 2 glorious guides, one given at Sinai and one given at Pentecost. One was temporary and one is forever. So you are telling me that the one given at Pentecost is the one done away?

Look:

2Co 3:6 Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.
2Co 3:7 But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away:
2Co 3:8 How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious?
2Co 3:9 For if the ministration of condemnation be glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory.
2Co 3:10 For even that which was made glorious had no glory in this respect, by reason of the glory that excelleth.
2Co 3:11 For if that which is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious.

There are several things in 2 Corinthians 3.

[1] Law (doesn't change, stays, "remaineth")
Hebrews 7:12
For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law. The laws of the Sinai covenant remained as long as the covenant remained.

The Bible says it changes. Who do you believe is correct, the SDA church or scripture?

[2] ministration (changes), how the Law is administered
I don't understand????

The remainder of your post doesn't really have anything to add to your proof.


But if the ministration of death, written [and] engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which [glory] was to be done away: 2 Corinthians 3:7

What was the "glory" that was to be done away?
The law written on stone.

Why? For a greater glory than the glory of Moses face, which was merely reflection of the Glory of God from the Law written in Stone, was to be seen directly in the face of Jesus Christ, God's glory and His Law directly seen in the Life lived perfectly, the Law as it is to be in the heart, from love to God, Divinity clothed in humanity, the likeness of sinful flesh, the same flesh we have, victorious over all temptation, condemned sin in the flesh...
One thing Jesus came to do was to keep the law that Israel so miserably failed to do. did Jesus fulfill the Law? My dictionary tells me to fulfill means to bring to an end. Jesus brought those laws to an end and ushered in the laws of the new covenant. Love others as I have loved you. Greater love has no man but to give his life for his fellow man.

For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to [give] the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ. 2 Corinthians 4:6

As for Colossians 2, Ephesians 2 and Hebrews 9-10:

Ephesians 2 parallels that of Colossians 2 and Hebrews 9-10 in language, and speaks of 'ordinances', even that which is 'carnal' and was typical of "things to come".

The 4th Commandment, the 7th day the sabbath of the LORD commandment is "spiritual", Rom. 7:14 and not typical, but rather whose function always points out sin, and is for "Remember", being a memorial, an at-one-ment, a bringing together as one. The 4th commandment, yea even the Ten Commandments are never called 'ordinances' in all of scripture.
They very well could be according to the explanation below. Ordinance:
an authoritative rule or law; a decree or command.
a public injunction or regulation:a city ordinance against excessive horn blowing.
something believed to have been ordained, as by a deity or destiny.
Ecclesiastical.
  1. an established rite or ceremony.
  2. a sacrament.
  3. the communion.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums