California Education Dept. Proposing to Treat Capitalism as Oppressive

Speedwell

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Yeah, except, well, I have the facts. You know, those things you invoke in name only!
Look at in another way: nobody on the "Left" here thinks that the curriculum intends to teach that capitalism is inherently oppressive. And (based on that sample) nobody intends to teach it that it is. Certainly, no one the "Right" is going to teach such a thing. So, who is going to use that curriculum to teach that capitalism is inherently oppressive? The "Left" wouldn't do it because they don't think that's what the curriculum intends, and certainly the "Right" won't.
 
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NotreDame

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Sorry. I don't know if you've noticed how those with money have historically tried to do the worst they can get away with to their workers for the last few hundred years.

Unions didn't come out of nowhere.

Seems like an apt description to me.

Yeah, I’ve given a lot of thought to exploitation, Marxist ideas of exploitation, the value theory of labor, underpaid, etcetera...I’ve debated those subjects for years, in classrooms, blogs, forums.

My gut, my Jiminy Cricket voice, tells me capitalism is unjust but when I attempt to work out factually how capitalism is unjust I repeatedly encounter a problem. The problem is I have neither found, discovered, read, or heard any workable objective standard for establishing as a fact capitalism is oppressive, i.e., it is unjust. Yeah, I might “feel” it is but I can’t establish my “feeling” as a fact.

Yes, unions developed, but that doesn’t establish as a fact capitalism is oppressive but instead, at best, established people perceived or believed capitalism was oppressive, hence, unionize.
 
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timothyu

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Sorry. I don't know if you've noticed how those with money have historically tried to do the worst they can get away with to their workers for the last few hundred years.
Unions didn't come out of nowhere.
Seems like an apt description to me.

It's kind of a narcissistic/psychopathic situation. The evil that is done is often overridden by a sense that a goodness is being done, the end justifying the means. Deluded thinking. No evil system starts out thinking I'm going to screw everyone over and destroy the world, but it often ends up being the result. Without checks and balances, anything including capitalism can get out of hand. If religion can fall into that trap as it has, so can everything else.
 
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Speedwell

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Yeah, I’ve given a lot of thought to exploitation, Marxist ideas of exploitation, the value theory of labor, underpaid, etcetera...I’ve debated those subjects for years, in classrooms, blogs, forums.

My gut, my Jiminy Cricket voice, tells me capitalism is unjust but when I attempt to work out factually how capitalism is unjust I repeatedly encounter a problem. The problem is I have neither found, discovered, read, or heard any workable objective standard for establishing as a fact capitalism is oppressive, i.e., it is unjust. Yeah, I might “feel” it is but I can’t establish my “feeling” as a fact.

Yes, unions developed, but that doesn’t establish as a fact capitalism is oppressive but instead, at best, established people perceived or believed capitalism was oppressive, hence, unionize.
So you can think of no instances in which a capitalist enterprise has acted in an oppressive fashion nor even any reason to think that such a thing is possible.
 
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NotreDame

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Look at in another way: nobody on the "Left" here thinks that the curriculum intends to teach that capitalism is inherently oppressive. And (based on that sample) nobody intends to teach it that it is. Certainly, no one the "Right" is going to teach such a thing. So, who is going to use that curriculum to teach that capitalism is inherently oppressive? The "Left" wouldn't do it because they don't think that's what the curriculum intends, and certainly the "Right" won't.

This is speculative man. I can just as easily say someone on the "Left" will think and act the opposite way.

Regardless though, it is beyond what I am focusing upon, which is the text of the proposal.
 
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Speedwell

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This is speculative man. I can just as easily say someone on the "Left" will think and act the opposite way.

Regardless though, it is beyond what I am focusing upon, which is the text of the proposal.
My point was, that it doesn't matter if you think that the curriculum teaches that capitalism is inherently oppressive if nobody else does.
 
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NotreDame

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So you can think of no instances in which a capitalist enterprise has acted in an oppressive fashion nor even any reason to think that such a thing is possible.

Sure, I can "think" of many instances I believe may be evidence establishing as a fact that capitalism is oppressive but I am not aware of any objective standard allowing me to show my "thoughts" on the matter are factual. I am not predisposed to espousing claims of fact that I know, beforehand, I cannot objectively show to indeed be factual. Some views are just mere opinion and nothing more and I am inclined, at the moment, to believe the claim that it is a fact capitalism is oppressive is mere opinion, nothing more.
 
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Speedwell

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Sure, I can "think" of many instances I believe may be evidence establishing as a fact that capitalism is oppressive but I am not aware of any objective standard allowing me to show my "thoughts" on the matter are factual. I am not predisposed to espousing claims of fact that I know, beforehand, I cannot objectively show to indeed be factual. Some views are just mere opinion and nothing more and I am inclined, at the moment, to believe the claim that it is a fact capitalism is oppressive is mere opinion, nothing more.
That is why analysis is necessary to determine if any particular instance of capitalism is oppressive.
 
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NotreDame

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That is why analysis is necessary to determine if any particular instance of capitalism is oppressive.

If it is subjective, analysis isn’t going to change it from being subjective.
 
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Belk

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Yeah, I’ve given a lot of thought to exploitation, Marxist ideas of exploitation, the value theory of labor, underpaid, etcetera...I’ve debated those subjects for years, in classrooms, blogs, forums.

My gut, my Jiminy Cricket voice, tells me capitalism is unjust but when I attempt to work out factually how capitalism is unjust I repeatedly encounter a problem. The problem is I have neither found, discovered, read, or heard any workable objective standard for establishing as a fact capitalism is oppressive, i.e., it is unjust. Yeah, I might “feel” it is but I can’t establish my “feeling” as a fact.

Yes, unions developed, but that doesn’t establish as a fact capitalism is oppressive but instead, at best, established people perceived or believed capitalism was oppressive, hence, unionize.

Have you found an objective standard for oppression or justice? I have never heard of one since these are not things that have a standard of measure.
 
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NotreDame

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Have you found an objective standard for oppression or justice? I have never heard of one since these are not things that have a standard of measure.

No. And I’ve explored the many philosophical theories, from Plato’s notion of universal forms, Rawls Theory of Justice, etcetera, and there’s not an objective standard.
 
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Belk

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No. And I’ve explored the many philosophical theories, from Plato’s notion of universal forms, Rawls Theory of Justice, etcetera, and there’s not an objective standard.
I would agree. So, are we unable to make any claims of oppression or injustice? Are these terms which we should retire since there is no absolute standard?

And just as side question, are there any objective theories in philosophy? That seems much more the realm of the hard sciences.
 
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NotreDame

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And just as side question, are there any objective theories in philosophy? That seems much more the realm of the hard sciences.

Excellent question. Maybe. David Hume’s thoughts on the problems of inductive reasoning and causality has a basis in objectivity. Philosophy and those philosophers belonging to the philosophical school of thought known as positivism, such as Comte.

I would agree. So, are we unable to make any claims of oppression or injustice? Are these terms which we should retire since there is no absolute standard?

No, I’m not going that far, as I readily acknowledge no society, nation, nation state, country, city state, etcetera, can exist without societal determinations of what is unjust. Historically, from the code of Ur-Nammu to Hammurabi’s code in Sumeria, to the Ten Commandments and the Law given to Moses in the Torah, Solon’s laws in ancient Athens, to the Twelve Laws of Rome, the Magna Charta of England, English common law, etcetera, each make assertions or assumptions of justice/injustice/fairness. It is a historical fact societies, for over 4000 years, have made proclamations or assumptions of what is just/unjust.

My view is there are certain forums that are more appropriate for those claims than others. Claims of justice, allegations of injustice, are certainly appropriate in Congress, legislatures, concepts debated as part of critical thinking in schools, etcetera.

But what I find objectionable is treating mere opinion as fact, for instance some posters here treating as a fact capitalism is oppressive in defending the proposal, or the proposal itself treating as a fact capitalism is oppressive, and the idea of pawning that opinion about capitalism off as fact to students in the classroom in secondary education, along with grade 1-8.
 
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whatbogsends

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An rebutted assertion is an answer to the question. Furthermore, it is the nature of the examples which is dispositive. The examples are of systems of power oppressing people. There’s no example of systems of power analyzed as you describe. They are analyzed as oppressive.

So, once again, the proposal labels and treats capitalism as oppressive because:

So, the four “I”s of oppression are applied to systems of power that aren’t oppressive doesn’t make sense. Let’s take these 4 “I”s of oppression and analyze them to systems in which they have no applicability. Apply the four “I”s to systems that aren’t oppressive at all. That makes no sense.

Of course, that alone doesn’t make sense but then the proposal provides instances of systems of power that has “oppressed” people, and provides no examples or instances where the four “I”s aren’t applicable or where the systems of power aren’t oppressing people, thereby telegraphing the systems of power as oppressive. What is more revealing is the LACK of any example where the four “I”s are analyzed in any manner you described. The examples use one or more of the four “I”s to show systems of power that oppress.

And there’s a reason why I provided so much prose from the proposal. The language from the proposal is compelling, in its entirety and in individual parts although part of the whole.

Again, the language of the proposal reveals I’m right. “Discussions of systems of power should include both the struggles that come with being entangled and impacted by these systems, but also resistance to them.

The “struggles” and “entanglement” with the systems of power and “resistance to” the systems of power, yes, of course, because they are oppressive. That’s why the four “I”s of oppression can be used to analyze them because they are oppressive. The proposal isn’t suggesting application of the four “I”s of oppression to gauge whether the system of power is oppressive.

The proposal does label and treat capitalism, a system of power, as oppressive, an oppressive system people that people “struggle” and “resist.” I mean, it is soooo common for people to resist non-oppressive systems!



Perceived weakness? Let’s get something straight. It is every appearance of a weakness, and indeed a weakness, when you can’t or won’t tell me or anyone else how exactly you know when something is unjust, cruel, such that it is then oppressive.

You have plenty of company as several others decreed capitalism as oppressive, some part of it as oppressive, but couldn’t, can’t, tell anyone how they know it! How do they know it’s oppressive? How do you?



No, let’s try this the mature way, of you revealing how exactly you know it is oppressive or when it comes oppressive. The “middle school way” was your diatribe about “sniping,” thereby obscuring your act of asserting capitalism as oppressive or when it so becomes oppressive, without enlightening us as to how you know it. That was middle school.



Given the subjective nature of the terms of oppressive, unjust, cruel, I know better than to try. Which is another way of saying that I cannot conceive of an objective rule or principle for determining when or whether capitalism is oppressive. Of course, this isn’t or should be too revealing, as I after all said the proposal was editorializing, it was propaganda.

You're right. Nothing subjective in nature should ever be taught. Only iron clad objective teaching. They should remove words like oppressive, unjust, and cruel from any curriculum, as they are subjective in nature.
 
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NotreDame

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You're right. Nothing subjective in nature should ever be taught. Only iron clad objective teaching. They should remove words like oppressive, unjust, and cruel from any curriculum, as they are subjective in nature.

First, your view is too broad and consequently, not aligned with what I have said.

But for fun, let’s test your sarcasm.

Let’s allow schools to treat, as a fact, the subjective belief Islam is oppressive. To treat as a fact that the Democratic platform, and Green New Deal, is oppressive. Treat as fact that FDR and his New Deal was oppressive and tyrannical. Treat as a fact that Title 7 of the Civil Rights Act is oppressive. Treat as a fact that U.S. Supreme Court decisions recognizing a right of same sex marriage, a right of interracial marriage, separate but equal as unconstitutional, a right to same sex sodomy, a right to have an abortion, are all oppressive. To treat as a fact those laws requiring public accommodations to service/sell goods to gays and transgender is oppressive. Laws prohibiting employers from refusing to hire on the basis of race, sexual orientation, gender identity, are oppressive.

Yeah, let’s allow public schools (grades 1-12) the discretion to treat, as factual mere subjectivity that some system, laws, practice, are oppressive, and pawn that off to students as factual.
 
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NotreDame

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If you want to argue about these terms, then how about this: there are a bunch of subjective definitions of "unjust" and "cruel" and as we can see, subjectivity results in ambiguity. So let's try to remove some ambiguity. You're a lawyer. How does the law define those terms? Let's try working off those definitions.

How about since you made the AFFIRMATIVE claim, you meet your burden of supporting your affirmative claim that it is a fact capitalism is or at some point is oppressive.

At this point, you’re just stalling because you realize it is so much easier for your beliefs to exist comfortably in your dome, where they are sheltered from critical thought by the outside world, thereby allowing you to believe they are right, than to actually have to show how and why this specific belief you have is factual! You can’t show your belief, your claim, that it is a fact capitalism is oppressive or a fact capitalism can become oppressive, and you are just obfuscating this inability by deflection.


And you haven't bothered to give any facts or evidence as to why they don't, yet apparently your revulsion to such a though is sufficient to categorize this whole program as propaganda.

Nonsense. The claim of propaganda does not rest on your illogical assertion I need to show a negative but haven’t. Whether I can or cannot satisfy your irrational notion I need to show a negative, it is still propaganda. Why? Because it hasn’t been established as a fact that capitalism is oppressive, given the terminology of oppressive, its very terms indicating subjectivity.

So, you think I must establish a negative. I must show how your examples do not meet the terminology of oppressive? That makes zero sense, especially since I’ve been asserting it is a subjective topic! How would I show your examples do not meet the terminology of oppressive? How do I show unjust isn’t applicable to your examples? I ask because I have no idea how to satisfy your irrational request.
 
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timothyu

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1 Corinthians|3:18 Let no man deceive himself. If any man among you seemeth to be wise in this world, let him become a fool, that he may be wise. 19 For the wisdom of this world is foolishness with God. For it is written, He taketh the wise in their own craftiness. 20 And again, The Lord knoweth the thoughts of the wise, that they are vain.
 
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Belk

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Excellent question. Maybe. David Hume’s thoughts on the problems of inductive reasoning and causality has a basis in objectivity. Philosophy and those philosophers belonging to the philosophical school of thought known as positivism, such as Comte.

Thank you, I will look those up. It also occurs to me that there might be parts of materialistic philosophy that apply. However the strict materialists are not nearly as objective as they wish to claim from what I have seen.

No, I’m not going that far, as I readily acknowledge no society, nation, nation state, country, city state, etcetera, can exist without societal determinations of what is unjust. Historically, from the code of Ur-Nammu to Hammurabi’s code in Sumeria, to the Ten Commandments and the Law given to Moses in the Torah, Solon’s laws in ancient Athens, to the Twelve Laws of Rome, the Magna Charta of England, English common law, etcetera, each make assertions or assumptions of justice/injustice/fairness. It is a historical fact societies, for over 4000 years, have made proclamations or assumptions of what is just/unjust.

My view is there are certain forums that are more appropriate for those claims than others. Claims of justice, allegations of injustice, are certainly appropriate in Congress, legislatures, concepts debated as part of critical thinking in schools, etcetera.

But what I find objectionable is treating mere opinion as fact, for instance some posters here treating as a fact capitalism is oppressive in defending the proposal, or the proposal itself treating as a fact capitalism is oppressive, and the idea of pawning that opinion about capitalism off as fact to students in the classroom in secondary education, along with grade 1-8.


But is that their claim? I will admit I have not examined them in depth but it seems to me that it is possible for any system to be oppressive. The question therefore becomes how do we go about examining oppression and injustice and making a determination outside of an objective standard?
 
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rambot

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Yeah, I’ve given a lot of thought to exploitation, Marxist ideas of exploitation, the value theory of labor, underpaid, etcetera...I’ve debated those subjects for years, in classrooms, blogs, forums.

My gut, my Jiminy Cricket voice, tells me capitalism is unjust but when I attempt to work out factually how capitalism is unjust I repeatedly encounter a problem. The problem is I have neither found, discovered, read, or heard any workable objective standard for establishing as a fact capitalism is oppressive, i.e., it is unjust. Yeah, I might “feel” it is but I can’t establish my “feeling” as a fact.

Yes, unions developed, but that doesn’t establish as a fact capitalism is oppressive but instead, at best, established people perceived or believed capitalism was oppressive, hence, unionize.
You are conflating unjust with oppressive and they are not the same thing.
 
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How about since you made the AFFIRMATIVE claim, you meet your burden of supporting your affirmative claim that it is a fact capitalism is or at some point is oppressive.

What do you think I’m trying to do? We can’t argue about what is or isn’t oppressive until we first define the components of oppression, which so far in this discussion, have been accepted to be cruelty and unjustness. Rather than provide a definition of those words myself that would be open your criticism (and thus result in even more beating around the bush), I asked you for a definition that I assumed you would be happy with, namely the definitions understood by the law. But apparently I can’t even get that out of you.

At this point, you’re just stalling because you realize it is so much easier for your beliefs to exist comfortably in your dome, where they are sheltered from critical thought by the outside world, thereby allowing you to believe they are right, than to actually have to show how and why this specific belief you have is factual! You can’t show your belief, your claim, that it is a fact capitalism is oppressive or a fact capitalism can become oppressive, and you are just obfuscating this inability by deflection.

lol, you started a thread based on a hysterical blurb from the Washington Examiner (an intellectually vapid, echo-chamber-targetting rag if ever their was one) and proceded for pages to just repeat your unfounded assertions and unique interpretations of this program... and I’m the one in a bubble??? k


Nonsense. The claim of propaganda does not rest on your illogical assertion I need to show a negative but haven’t.

Whether I can or cannot satisfy your irrational notion I need to show a negative, it is still propaganda. Why? Because it hasn’t been established as a fact that capitalism is oppressive, given the terminology of oppressive, its very terms indicating subjectivity.

So, you think I must establish a negative. I must show how your examples do not meet the terminology of oppressive? That makes zero sense, especially since I’ve been asserting it is a subjective topic! How would I show your examples do not meet the terminology of oppressive? How do I show unjust isn’t applicable to your examples? I ask because I have no idea how to satisfy your irrational request.

You started the thread by making the positive assertion that this program constituted propaganda by classifying capitalism as oppressive. It should have been on you to explain 1.) why your interpretation of the program was correct and 2.) why its classification of capitalism as oppressive was incorrect, or at least why the classification was an inappropriate logical leap given our understandings of both capitalism and the subjective nature of how we define oppression.

To explain #1, you could have explained the logic behind requiring what I earlier described as an absolutist interpretation of the program. You eventually did explain your logic to a degree, though it took some prodding. I don’t find it to be a particularly convincing argument, being little more than an argument from incredulity (i.e. “it doesn’t make sense” any other way), but whatever. I don’t think we’re going to convince each other on that.

To explain #2, you could have described how capitalism isn’t oppressive. Or, you could have described your reservations about the subjective nature of defining oppression in the first place.

But you didn’t. Rather, it wasn’t until post 87 that you expressed any concern at all about the subjectivity inherent in defining oppression, and not until post 102 that you explored the subject in any depth. If that’s your primary beef with this program, fine, let’s talk about that. Examining capitalism through the lens of oppression could be an interesting discussion. I’m willing to drop all of this nonsense if that’s where you want to go. But the overwhelming majority of your complaints in this thread so far have been about whether or not people (or the program) have substantiated their claims, leaving the rest of us (some of whom do actually try to substantiate their claims within reason) guessing as to what terms we have to define explicitly and which definitions we can assume everybody shares. That’s the kind of thing I, and I suspect most others, find puzzling and aggravating.
 
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