Matt. 25:46 Everlasting Punishment

Light of the East said:

In other words, "I don't want to believe what you believe, so I won't even consider that perhaps there is something to what you just said."

Well.......okay.

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Light of the East said:

What problems? I clicked on the link and it is working fine for me.

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Light of the East said:

You joke, right? I mean, do you really think that every possible objection has not been brought forward to this teaching?

Here's one idea about free will and salvation which might answer your question.

God’s Hand & Our Free Will

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yeshuaslavejeff said:

WE are commanded not to agree with , nor to ever study, those things which oppose Yahuweh and His Word.

To agree with what Yahuweh opposes, that is what makes something bad.

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Deborah D said:

No, I really don't joke about man's eternal destination. It's no joke at all that so many will choose eternal separation from God. Very sad!

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Major1 said:

Think for a moment about what you said. There is more than a possibility.....there is real facts.

The lost man had free will to choose Christ and he did not do so.
That choice then is he rejected God for eternity.

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Light of the East said:

This is a parable, just like the parable Jesus told in Matthew 21:33-44. Just as in Matthew, there is a distinct point to the parable - the coming destruction of Jerusalem and the taking of the Kingdom of God from the Jews to be given to the Gentiles.

The rich man is national Israel. What greater riches could there be than to be God's chosen people.
The poor man is the Gentile nations.
Notice that the rich man was clothed like a Jewish priest - purple and fine linens.
The poor man has rags - that is, the false religions and false priests of paganism.
The "great gulf" that is between them is the destruction of the Old Covenant, which will never be again (despite what Rapturists say) and the establishment of the New Covenant.
It is the torment of the Jews that their nation was destroyed and they have no Temple, no priesthood, and no covenant with God. And that is forever since they will never be covenantally restored.

And BTW - hell is not a place. It is a condition of being in wrong relationship with God and experiencing His love as torment and chastisement.

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Deborah D said:

Yes, I agree with you. (You may want to reread my post.)

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Major1 said:

And BTW - hell is not a place. It is a condition of being in wrong relationship with God and experiencing His love as torment and chastisement.

Translated “Hell”

2 Samuel 22:5-6 …......
“For the waves of death encompassed me, the torrents of destruction assailed me;6 the cords of Sheol entangled me; the snares of death confronted me.

Proverbs 23:13-14 .......
Do not withhold discipline from a child; if you strike him with a rod, he will not die.14 If you strike him with the rod, you will save his soul from Sheol.

A picture of Hell; misery and punishment

2 Chronicles 28:1-3 .......
Ahaz was twenty years old when he began to reign, and he reigned sixteen years in Jerusalem. And he did not do what was right in the eyes of the Lord, as his father David had done, but he walked in the ways of the kings of Israel. He even made metal images for the Baals, and he made offerings in the Valley of the Son of Hinnom and burned his sons as an offering, according to the abominations of the nations whom the Lord drove out before the people of Israel.

Jeremiah 7:31 .........
And they have built the high places of Topheth, which is in the Valley of the Son of Hinnom, to burn their sons and their daughters in the fire, which I did not command, nor did it come into my mind.

Translated “Hell”

1 Corinthians 15:55 (KJV) ........
O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?

Translated “hell” meaning eternal torment”

2 Peter 2:4 .........
For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but cast them into hell and committed them to chains of gloomy darkness to be kept until the judgment;

Luke 16:24 .........
And he called out, ‘Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus to dip the end of his finger in water and cool my tongue, for I am in anguish in this flame.’
Bible Verses About Hell: 21 Eye Opening Scriptures

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Major1 said:

Thank you brother, but I did understand that to be the case.

But for punishment to be real, then it must be established that hell is a real place and you just said that.

First of, there are NO Scriptures that allow for the "Annihilation" of the body/spirit of man in Hel or the Lake of Fire.

Now then. All we really have to do is to read the words said to us by God in the flesh Himself, the Lord Jesus Christ.

Luke 16:22-28 .........
"And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried; And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom. And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame. But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented. And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence. Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father's house: For I have five brethren; that he may testify unto them, lest they also come into this place of torment."

For the idea of the Annihilation to be accepted, then those entire Scriptures will have to be removed from the Bible.

"Being in TORMENTS" = action verb and indicates an ongoing process.
"For I am TORMENTED in this flame = Same as above.
"And thou art TOEMENTED" = Same as above.
"Place of TOEMENT" = Same as above.

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FineLinen said:

Dear Deborah: How are you and others on this link arriving at any idea that the Master in His parable is referring to anything outside of the 5 foundational qualifications for "everlasting punishment?

Let's sing together>>>

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FineLinen said:

Dear Oldman: Hell is NOT the Lake of theion/theioo! The Lake is centered in the Aidios One, and as such is eternal. The punishment on the other hand is aionios reaching into an undisclosed horizon, but completing the purpose for which it is exercised as calibre of Abba's working.

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FineLinen said:

Dear Ronald: I do appreciate the heads up. Since the subject is connected to the O.P.'s it will not be necessary to start a new link. LOL

What The New Testament Teaches

Aeonian Life Passes Into A Region Above Time

Let us consider the true meaning of the words “aion” and “aionios”.

These are the originals of the terms rendered by our translators “everlasting,” for ever and ever" and on this translation, so misleading, a vast portion of the popular dogma of endless torment is built up. I say, without hesitation, misleading and incorrect; for “aion” means “an age,” a limited period, whether long or short, though often of indefinite length; and the adjective “aionios” means “of the age,” “age-long,” “aeonian,” and NEVER “everlasting” (of its own proper force), it is true that it may be applied as an epithet to things that are endless, but the idea of endlessness in all such cases comes not from the epithet, but only because it is inherent in the object to which the epithet is applied, as in the case of God…

NOTE:

The word “Aionios” by itself, whether adjective or substantive, never means endless"–Canon Farrar -

“The conception of eternity, in the Semitic languages, is that of a long duration and series of ages.”–Rev. J. S. Blunt-- Dictionary of Theology.

" 'Tis notoriously known," says Bishop Rust, “that the Jews, whether writing in Hebrew or Greek, do by ‘olam’ (the Hebrew word corresponding to “aion”), and aion mean any remarkable period or duration, whether it be of life, or dispensation, or polity.”

The word aion is never used in Scripture, or anywhere else, in the sense of endlessness (vulgarly called eternity), it always meant, both in Scripture and out, a period of time; else how could it have a plural–how could you talk of the aeons and aeons of aeons as the Scripture does? -C. Kingsley-

So the secular games, celebrated every century were called “eternal” by the Greeks.–(See HUET, Orig. 2 Page 162)

…Much has been written on the import of the aeonian (eternal) life. Altogether to exclude, (with Maurice) the notion of time seems impracticable, and opposed to the general usage of the New Testament (and of the Septuagint). But while this is so, we may fully recognize that the phrase “eternal life” (aeonian life) does at times pass into a region above time, a region wholly moral and spiritual. Thus, in Saint John, the aeonian life (eternal life), of which he speaks, is a life not measured by duration, but a life in the unseen, life in God. Thus, e.g., God’s commandment is life eternal,–ib. 17.3, and Christ is the eternal life.–1 John 1:2, 20.

Quality & Quantity

Admitting, then, the usual reference of aionios to time, we note in the word a tendency to rise above this idea, to denote quality, rather than quantity, to indicate the true, the spiritual, in opposition to the unreal, or the earthly. In this sense the eternal is now and here. Thus “eternal” punishment is one thing, and “everlasting” punishment a very different thing, and so it is that our Revisers have substituted for “everlasting” the word “eternal” in every passage in the New Testament, where aionios is the original word. Further, if we take the term strictly, eternal punishment is impossible, for “eternal” in strictness has no beginning.

Aaronic Priesthood Long Ceased To Exist

Again, a point of great importance is this, that it would have been impossible for the Jews, as it is impossible for us, to accept Christ, except by assigning a limited–nay, a very limited duration–to those Mosaic ordinances which were said in the Old Testament to be “for ever,” to be “everlasting” (aeonian). Every line of the New Testament, nay, the very existence of Christianity is thus in fact a proof of the limited sense of aionios in Scripture. Our Baptism in the Name of Jesus Christ, our Holy Communion, every prayer uttered in a Christian Church, or in our homes, in the name of the Lord Jesus: our hopes of being “for ever with the Lord”–these contain one and all an affirmation most real, though tacit, of the temporary sense of aionios.

Aionios Repeatedly Applied To Things That Have Long Ago Ceased To Exist

As a further illustration of the meaning of aion and aionios, let me point out that in the Greek version of the Old Testament (the Septuagint)–in common use among the Jews in our Lord’s time, from which He and the Apostles usually quoted, and whose authority, therefore, should be decisive on this point–these terms are repeatedly applied to things that have long ceased to exist.

Thus

The Aaronic priesthood is said to be “everlasting,” -Numb.25:13-

The land of Canaan is given as an “everlasting” possession, and “for ever” -Gen. 17:8…Gen. 18:15-

In Deut. 23:3, “for ever” is distinctly made an equivalent to “even to the tenth generation.”

In Lamentations 5:19, “for ever and ever” is the equivalent of from “generation to generation.”

The inhabitants of Palestine are to be bondsmen “for ever” -Lev. 25:46-

In Numb. 18:19, the heave offerings of the holy things are a covenant “for ever.”

Caleb obtains his inheritance “for ever” -Joshua 14:9-

And David’s seed is to endure “for ever,” his throne “for ever,” his house “for ever;” nay, the passover is to endure “for ever;” and in Isa. 32:14, the forts and towers shall be “dens for ever, until the spirit be poured upon us.”

So in Jude 7, Sodom and Gomorrah are said to be suffering the vengeance of eternal (aeonian) fire, i.e., their temporal overthrow by fire, for they have a definite promise of final restoration.–(Ezek. 16:55)

Christ’s Kingdom Is To Last Forever & Yet

And Christ’s kingdom is to last “for ever,” yet we are distinctly told that this very kingdom is to end.–(I Cor. 15:24) Indeed, quotation might be added to quotation, both from the Bible and from early authors, to prove this limited meaning of aion and its derivatives; but enough has probably been said to prove that it is wholly impossible, and indeed absurd, to contend that any idea of endless duration is necessarily or commonly implied by either aion or aionios.

NOTE:

Thus Josephus calls “aeonian,” the temple of Herod, which was actually destroyed when he wrote. PHILO never uses aionios of endless duration.

Aion Either Means Endless Duration Or It Does Not

Further, if this translation of aionios as “eternal,” in the sense of endless, be correct, aion must mean eternity, i.e., endless duration. But so to render it would reduce Scripture to an absurdity.

In the first place, you would have over and over again to talk of the “eternities.” We can comprehend what “eternity” is, but what are the “eternities?” You cannot have more than one eternity. The doxology would run thus: “Thine is the kingdom, the power, and the glory, unto the eternities.”

In the case of the sin against the Holy Ghost, the translation would then be, “it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this eternity nor in that to come.”

Our Lord’s words, (Matt. 13:39), would then be, “the harvest is the end of the eternity,” i.e., the end of the endless, which is to make our Lord talk nonsense.

Again, in Mark 4:19, the translation should be, “the cares,” not of “this world,” but “the cares of this eternity choke the word.”

In Luke 16:8, “The children of this world,” should be “the children of this eternity.”

In 1 Cor. 10:11, the words, “upon whom the ends of the world are come,” should be: “the ends of the eternities.”

Take next, Gal. 1:4: “That He might deliver us from this present evil world,” should run thus: “from this present evil eternity.”

In 2 Tim. 4:10, the translation should be: “Demas hath forsaken me, having loved this present eternity.”

And “Now once at the end of the ages hath He been manifested,” should read, on the popular view, “at the end of the eternities.”

Let me state the dilemma clearly. Aion either means endless duration as its necessary, or at least its ordinary significance, or it does not. If it does, the following difficulties at once arise;

Difficulties

1. How, if it mean an endless period, can aion have a plural?
   
   
2. How came such phrases to be used as those repeatedly occurring in Scripture, where aion is added to aion, if aion is of itself infinite?
   
   
3. How come such phrases as for the “aion” or aions and beyond?–ton aiona kai ep aiona kai eti: eis tous aionas kai eti.–(see Sept. Ex. 15:18…Dan. 12:3…Micah 4:5)
   
   
4. How is it that we repeatedly read of the end of the aion?–Matt. 13:39-40-49;…Matt. 24:3…Matt. 28:20…1 Cor. 10:11…Hebr. 9:26.
   
   
5. Finally, if aion be infinite, why is it applied over and over to what is strictly finite? e.g. Mark 4:19…Acts 3:21…Rom. 12:2…1 Cor. 1:20…1 Cor. 2:6…1 Cor. 3:18, 10:11, etc. etc.

If Aion Is Not Infinite

But if aion be not infinite, what right have we to render the adjective aionios (which depends for its meaning on aion) by the terms “eternal” (when used as the equivalent of “endless”) and “everlasting?”

Indeed our translators have really done further hurt to those who can only read their English Bible.

They have, wholly obscured a very important doctrine, that of “the ages.” This when fully understood throws a flood of light on the plan of redemption, and the method of the divine working. Take a few instances which show the force and clearness gained, by restoring the true rendering of the words aion and aionios.

Turn to Matt. 24:3. There our version represents the disciples as asking “what should be the sign of the end of the world.” It should be the end of the “age;” the close of the Jewish age marked by the fall of Jerusalem.

In Matt. 13:39-40-49, the true rendering is not the end of the “world,” but of the “age,” an important change.

So John 17:3, “this is life eternal,” should be “the life of the ages,” i.e., peculiar to those ages, in which the scheme of salvation is being worked out.

Or take Heb 5:9; Heb. 9:12; Heb. 13:20, “eternal salvation” should be “aeonian” or of the ages; “eternal redemption” is the redemption “of the ages;” the eternal covenant is the “covenant of the ages,” the covenant peculiar to the ages of redemption.

In Eph. 3:11, “the eternal purpose” is really the purpose of “the ages,” i.e., worked out in “the ages.”

In Eph. 3:21, there occurs a suggestive phrase altogether obscured (as usual, where this word is in question), by our version, “until all the generations of the age of the ages.” Thus it runs in the original, and it is altogether unfair to conceal this elaborate statement by merely rendering “throughout all ages.”

In 1 Cor. 10:11 “the ends of the world” are the “ends of the ages.” In 1 Cor. 2:6-7-8, the word aion is four times translated “world,” it should be "age’ or “ages” in all cases.

And here it is impossible to avoid asking how–assuming that aion does mean “world” in these cases–how it can yield, as an adjective, such a term as “everlasting?” If it mean “world,” then the adjective should be “worldly,” “of the world.” And great force and freshness would be gained in our version by always adhering to the one rendering “age.”

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yeshuaslavejeff said:

Hebrews 13:9-25 CSB - Don't be led astray by various kinds - Bible ...

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Hebrews+13%3A9-25&version...
9 Don't be led astray by various kinds of strange teachings;

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FineLinen said:

In preparation for this foundational verse of everlasting punishment we will consider a couple of questions.

Questions

1. Would not endless punishment be the return of evil for evil?

2. As we are commanded "to overcome evil with good," may we not safely infer that God will do the same? (Rom. 12:21)

3. Would the infliction of endless punishment be overcoming evil with good?

4. If God hates the sinner, does the sinner do wrong in hating Him?

5. Is God a changeable being? (James 1:17)

6. If God loves His enemies now, will he not always love them?

7. Is it just for God to be "kind to the evil and unthankful," in their present life? (Luke 6:35)

8. Would it be unjust for God to be kind to all men in a future state?

9. If all men justly deserve endless punishment, will not those who are saved, be saved unjustly?

10. If God "will by no means clear the guilty," by what means can just punishment be evaded? (Ex. 34:7)

11. As no man can measure endless punishment to his neighbor, will endless punishment be measured to him? (Luke 4:38)

12. Would it be merciful in God to inflict endless punishment? -- that is, merciful to the sufferer?

13. Can that be just which is not merciful?

14. Do not cruelty and injustice go hand in hand?

15. Can that be merciful which is not just?

-A. C. Thomas-

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