Enough is enough... Everyone here should contact Sen. McConnell...

Darkhorse

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But police and military go through more vetting than I’m sure would be required of each citizen if we planned to arm and train them.

My point is not vetting. My point is the criminal always has the advantage of surprise - for soldiers, police, and citizens. Training is helpful, but it really doesn't eliminate this hazard for the "good guys".
 
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FenderTL5

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Crime will never be eliminated.
Wrong - if everyone has a gun; viola no crime.
Unless someone fails to have a gun at all times, that'd be a crime.
Instead of your gun-free zones - every place should be gun required zones, no exceptions. That way we'd know there's always a good guy with a gun, regardless of any potential criminals.
Crime would be eliminated on the spot.
 
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LostMarbels

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Wrong - if everyone has a gun; viola no crime.
Unless someone fails to have a gun at all times, that'd be a crime.
Instead of your gun-free zones - every place should be gun required zones, no exceptions. That way we'd know there's always a good guy with a gun, regardless of any potential criminals.
Crime would be eliminated on the spot.

You know that is a silly argument. That is why you are using it.... to point out some perceived absurdity. Problem is I see the absurdity as well. So you might want a differnt angle of attack.
 
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GreatLakes4Ever

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My question then would be, who is affected by gun restrictions if criminals will commit the crime anyways?



First of all, I can not be held accountable for your fear or suspicion. I would never murder anyone in cold blood. Secondly going back to the original point, what is stopping the individual from returning with an illegal weapon and killing people he knows will be unarmed?



So the onus is on law abiding citizens then? They need to make sure they don't have a weapon. How does that stop everyone in that area from being gunned down?

Everyone is still affected. A criminal can’t sit in a gun free zone with a gun out for long. They have to act or they will be arrested/asked to leave. This is why I want more gun laws. I want the criminal to face getting caught every step along the way. Right now we need to wait until they make a threatening move with a gun to stop them which could be less than a second before someone is dead. Make them face the law just getting to their shooting spot and you increase your time to catch them.


Time stops the person from going to get a gun and come back. Time to sober up or think for a second if it is really worth shooting someone. Have that gun at your ready and it can be a quick almost impulsive move to shooting someone.


Have not some of the people wanting a well armed populace put the onus on the public to keep themselves safe by getting a gun? Them not having guns does help them not get shot. The top half of my #312 post lays out some issues when everyone has guns.



I see no reason why the average American needs a gun and find that there is no way it makes them safer. They should hang on to their childhood teddy bear to achieve the same affect. The attacker always has the advantage with the element of surprise. Malcolm Gladwell’s most recent podcast of Revisionist History talked to a guy who tries to figure what happened in police shootings. He had an example where the criminal had the gun in his hand at his side and five cops with their guns pointed at him. He still managed to shoot two cops from that position before the cops could fire back. Want to be protected, get guns out of the hands of people who would use them for harm.
 
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LostMarbels

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upload_2019-8-7_15-51-11.png


See those two words in the constitution?

Regulate: To control or direct according to rule, principle, or law.

Infringe: To defeat; invalidate.

That is what I believe.
 
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Aldebaran

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It's part of the narrative that any kind of gun control at all is a slippery slope leading to wholesale confiscation.

Guns are already controlled. Are there no laws regulating the age at which a person can own one? Are there no background checks when buying one from a dealer? Are there no restrictions on where a gun can be carried, and by who? Are there no laws about where a gun can be fired?
 
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LostMarbels

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Have not some of the people wanting a well armed populace put the onus on the public to keep themselves safe by getting a gun? Them not having guns does help them not get shot. The top half of my #312 post lays out some issues when everyone has guns

Who said everyone has to have a gun?

Want to be protected, get guns out of the hands of people who would use them for harm.

Who is that exactly?
 
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FenderTL5

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You know that is a silly argument. That is why you are using it.... to point out some perceived absurdity. Problem is I see the absurdity as well. So you might want a differnt angle of attack.
I was merely trying to match the level of hyperbole of your post 310 and following.
 
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LostMarbels

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Guns are already controlled. Are there no laws regulating the age at which a person can own one? Are there no background checks when buying one from a dealer? Are there no restrictions on where a gun can be carried, and by who? Are there no laws about where a gun can be fired?

Regulation is necessary. I agree, we have to have laws concerning firearms, however, laws that do not negate the very reason for bearing arms in the first place.
 
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GreatLakes4Ever

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(A)Who said everyone has to have a gun?



(B)Who is that exactly?

A) “Everyone” was hyperbole on my part. I keep hearing the NRA talking point that more guns are the answer. We should all really just ignore them since of course they say more guns are the answer, they want to sell more guns.


B) Anyone who has committed a violent crime or threatened physical violence and anyone stupid enough to think their gun(s) has any chance going up against our government if it decides to turn on us. Some new guy back at base will have a scratch to buff out of the tank while John Q Gun Owner’s family is going to have to pick up what’s left of him with a sponge.
 
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LostMarbels

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A) “Everyone” was hyperbole on my part. I keep hearing the NRA talking point that more guns are the answer. We should all really just ignore them since of course they say more guns are the answer, they want to sell more guns.

Not more guns... less gun grabs. Stop making more, and more, and more, and more of them illegal.

B) Anyone who has committed a violent crime.

Agreed. What about clemency?

threatened physical violence

This is dicey. Could end up a new inquisition where all you have to do is accuse someone.

and anyone stupid enough to think their gun(s) has any chance going up against our government if it decides to turn on us. Some new guy back at base will have a scratch to buff out of the tank while John Q Gun Owner’s family is going to have to pick up what’s left of him with a sponge.

Not the topic.

 
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GreatLakes4Ever

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Not more guns... less gun grabs. Stop making more, and more, and more, and more of them illegal.

New and deadlier guns are invented, more need to be banned.

Agreed. What about clemency?

None. You’ve shown you can be violent, the last thing society needs is for you to be violent with a weapon that makes killing people easy.

This is dicey. Could end up a new inquisition where all you have to do is accuse someone.

I meant as in they were convicted for making criminal threats. Not simply someone stopping by the station saying “He threatened me” and that person isn’t allowed to own guns anymore.

Not the topic.

I stand by what I said. If you think that gun is going to turn you into Rambo or you are planning on being the Lone Ranger you aren’t intelligent enough to have a gun. I know the test for this is near impossible but if you believe you live in a movie, there is no way you having a gun is going to turn out well for anyone.
 
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renniks

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I'm proposing the total opposite. Arm everybody. Criminals, those with mental issues, everyone.
I'm thinking we should start issuing bb guns to kindergartners in order to develop a basic operational foundation.
By the time a child is in 2nd grade they should be carrying a .22 at all times. All high school students should have AR15s as a requirement.
All conflict can be resolved with enough firepower. If everyone is armed, crime will be eliminated entirely.
I know you're being sarcastic but, in the society many of us grew up in, we carried guns very early on, learned to respect them, and gun crimes were very rare. Of course not everyone was interested in hunting and so on, but hardly anyone thought about solving their conflicts with guns. What has changed? It seems to me that constant indoctrination by the so-called news, have made guns a Boogeyman, where before they were just a tool, like a shovel or an ax.
 
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cow451

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And I intend to keep it. If Canada ever invades us with muzzle-loading black powder weapons, who's going to be ready, huh?
A poster feels safer already.
 
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Nithavela

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I must say.. I've been on CF a long, long time, but I've never yet seen so many gun debate threats going off the rails as in the last few days. Sure, there were always heated debates, but if this trend continues, it will be thinly veiled death threats in a dozen or so more publicly noticed mass shootings.
 
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FenderTL5

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I know you're being sarcastic but, in the society many of us grew up in, we carried guns very early on, learned to respect them, and gun crimes were very rare. Of course not everyone was interested in hunting and so on, but hardly anyone thought about solving their conflicts with guns. What has changed? It seems to me that constant indoctrination by the so-called news, have made guns a Boogeyman, where before they were just a tool, like a shovel or an ax.
Yes there was a level of sarcasm in that response. However, it's only a modest exaggeration of some gun advocates.

I grew up in rural Tennessee. When others make jokes about black powder muzzle loaders... I have one, a 45 calibre that was a gift when I turned 13. I've made my own mini-balls for it. I own several guns. My extended family was involved in law enforcement. My first job away from my dad's construction business was dispatcher for fire and police in the small town where my uncle was sheriff.
I have no desire to carry one, because I know what that entails. I've also had a gun pointed at me more than once. I'm not ignorant when it come to guns.

So when someone says a gun is just a tool like a shovel, axe or a hammer, I see it as a disingenuous insult to my intelligence.
A shovel is a tool, designed for a general constructive purpose. You use it to dig holes or move small debris, dirt, gravel etc from one place to another. An axe is used for cutting trees, splitting logs etc a hammer for driving nails. They were designed for a specific jobs. Yes, they can be utilized as a weapon but that is a misuse of their intended purpose.
When it comes to guns, they were designed for killing. They are a tool of death. I suppose one could drive nails or cut down a tree with one, but that would be a misuse of its designed purpose. When it comes to some guns, like the AR 15, it was designed for the express purpose of killing human beings. It began its life as the m-16 military rifle. Yes, I know the difference between semi-automatic and select fire. There's no need to argue that point. I'm also well aware of the changes made for the civilian versions. There's no reason that weapons of that type should be on the streets.

My personal opinion, speaking only for me, is that we need to go beyond 'red flag' laws and go to 'green flag' laws similar to those in countries like Israel. Instead of waiting until one is a criminal and removing their ownership rights; those wishing to own should first prove their eligibility. Guns, of any kind/type are not prohibited - but the individual has to register, license and demonstrate their need for it. I think gun owners should be required to carry liability insurance on them. LEO would have the right/obligation to disarm anyone with a gun that is not authorized to have one.
If this were implemented I would either comply or turn mine in.

I know that the current, fundamental understanding of the 2nd Amendment would have to be altered before my view could ever be made law. otoh, I'm also well aware of why the 2nd Amendment is in the Bill of Rights and why the first half is worded the way it is.
That's where I stand. I'm done.
 
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LostMarbels

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New and deadlier guns are invented, more need to be banned.

Deadiler? How can you die even more? Lethality is certain, and definitave. The only things that change with weapons are capabilities, attachments and advancements in form and function.

None. You’ve shown you can be violent, the last thing society needs is for you to be violent with a weapon that makes killing people easy.

"makes killing people easy" What I see is a disconnect from the morality of the issue. It is not 'easy' to take another human beings life. It's not even 'easy' to watch a dog get shot to death, yet alone a person. Why do you think every normal person that comes home from war is emotional affected and changed? Killing people and watching them die is very taxing.

I meant as in they were convicted for making criminal threats. Not simply someone stopping by the station saying “He threatened me” and that person isn’t allowed to own guns anymore.

I would be more apt to agree if included with actions. Stalking. Legitimate harassment causing rational fear. Spousal abuse. Child abuse. Fits of rage that lead to police involvements or domestic disturbances. Individuals that have been baker acted multiple times. Stuff like that.

I stand by what I said. If you think that gun is going to turn you into Rambo or you are planning on being the Lone Ranger you aren’t intelligent enough to have a gun. I know the test for this is near impossible but if you believe you live in a movie, there is no way you having a gun is going to turn out well for anyone.

And this is a la la world fairytale understanding of a misunderstood topic that has nothing to do with mass shootings, nor keeping guns out of the hands of criminals.
 
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