Before you can follow Jesus

Wordkeeper · Aug 7, 2019

RaymondG said:
You are right in that you have a wrong interpretation of what I think.

Again, you posted:

Quote
In, fact, the best thing you can give to the poor is not silver and goal.....nay.....but what you have been given of God.

What we have been given of God, following giving up dependence on selfishness, is the ability to live selfless lives and still survive, because God is involved. This is not the hope non believer's have, they suffer when they sacrifice. Not so believer's, identified by those who are the little flock, who have been given the Kingdom, the involvement of the Finger of God, a sign of God being in the midst of the great work.

Matthew 19
27Then Peter said to Him, “Behold, we have left everything and followed You; what then will there be for us?” 28And Jesus said to them, “Truly I say to you, that you who have followed Me, in the regeneration when the Son of Man will sit on His glorious throne, you also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. 29“And everyone who has left houses or brothers or sisters or father or mother or children or farms for My name’s sake, will receive many times as much, and will inherit eternal life. 30“But many who are first will be last; and the last, first.

Luke 12
32“Do not be afraid, little flock, for your Father has chosen gladly to give you the kingdom.

33“Sell your possessions and give to charity; make yourselves money belts which do not wear out, an unfailing treasure in heaven, where no thief comes near nor moth destroys. 34“For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also.

Exodus 8
19Then the magicians said to Pharaoh, "This is the finger of God." But Pharaoh's heart was hardened, and he did not listen to them, as the LORD had said.

RaymondG · Aug 7, 2019

Wordkeeper said:
Again, you posted:

Quote
In, fact, the best thing you can give to the poor is not silver and goal.....nay.....but what you have been given of God.

What we have been given of God, following giving up dependence on selfishness, is the ability to live selfless lives and still survive, because God is involved. This is not the hope non believer's have, they suffer when they sacrifice. Not so believer's, identified by those who are the little flock, who have been given the Kingdom, the involvement of the Finger of God, a sign of God being in the midst of the great work.

Matthew 19
27Then Peter said to Him, “Behold, we have left everything and followed You; what then will there be for us?” 28And Jesus said to them, “Truly I say to you, that you who have followed Me, in the regeneration when the Son of Man will sit on His glorious throne, you also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. 29“And everyone who has left houses or brothers or sisters or father or mother or children or farms for My name’s sake, will receive many times as much, and will inherit eternal life. 30“But many who are first will be last; and the last, first.

Luke 12
32“Do not be afraid, little flock, for your Father has chosen gladly to give you the kingdom.

33“Sell your possessions and give to charity; make yourselves money belts which do not wear out, an unfailing treasure in heaven, where no thief comes near nor moth destroys. 34“For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also.

Exodus 8
19Then the magicians said to Pharaoh, "This is the finger of God." But Pharaoh's heart was hardened, and he did not listen to them, as the LORD had said.

Sorry, I truely see nothing to argue or debate......maybe you can try another poster?

Hammster · Aug 7, 2019

Wordkeeper said:
Your posts reveal an embarrassing lack of Scriptural knowledge.

John 10
31The Jews picked up stones again to stone Him. 32Jesus answered them, “I showed you many good works from the Father; for which of them are you stoning Me?” 33The Jews answered Him, “For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy; and because You, being a man, make Yourself out to be God.”34Jesus answered them, “Has it not been written in your Law, ‘I SAID, YOU ARE GODS’? 35“If he called them gods, to whom the word of God came (and the Scripture cannot be broken),36do you say of Him, whom the Father sanctified and sent into the world, ‘You are blaspheming,’ because I said, ‘I am the Son of God’? 37“If I do not do the works of My Father, do not believe Me; 38but if I do them, though you do not believe Me, believe the works, so that you may know and understand that the Father is in Me, and I in the Father.” 39Therefore they were seeking again to seize Him, and He eluded their grasp.

Matthew 12
9Departing from there, He went into their synagogue. 10And a man was there whose hand was withered. And they questioned Jesus, asking, “Is it lawful to heal on the Sabbath?”—so that they might accuse Him. 11And He said to them, “What man is there among you who has a sheep, and if it falls into a pit on the Sabbath, will he not take hold of it and lift it out? 12“How much more valuable then is a man than a sheep! So then, it is lawful to do good on the Sabbath.” 13Then He said to the man, “Stretch out your hand!” He stretched it out, and it was restored to normal, like the other. 14But the Pharisees went out and conspired against Him, as to how they might destroy Him.

You shouldn’t speak too soon.

For this reason the Father loves Me, because I lay down My life so that I may take it again. No one has taken it away from Me, but I lay it down on My own initiative. I have authority to lay it down, and I have authority to take it up again. This commandment I received from My Father.”
— John 10:17-18

Wordkeeper · Aug 7, 2019

RaymondG said:
Sorry, I truely see nothing to argue or debate......maybe you can try another poster?

I'm sorry too:

Psalms 106
6We have sinned like our fathers,
We have committed iniquity, we have behaved wickedly.

7Our fathers in Egypt did not understand Your wonders;
They did not remember Your abundant kindnesses,
But rebelled by the sea, at the Red Sea.

You've missed out how to be IN Christ, the real Gospel.

Wordkeeper · Aug 7, 2019

Hammster said:
You shouldn’t speak too soon.

For this reason the Father loves Me, because I lay down My life so that I may take it again. No one has taken it away from Me, but I lay it down on My own initiative. I have authority to lay it down, and I have authority to take it up again. This commandment I received from My Father.”
— John 10:17-18

I see the word "Father" there. The authority is given by the Father. Christ can do nothing without the Father.

John 5
19Therefore Jesus answered and was saying to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, the Son can do nothing of Himself, unless it issomething He sees the Father doing; for whatever the Father does, these things the Son also does in like manner. 20“For the Father loves the Son, and shows Him all things that He Himself is doing; and the Father will show Him greater works than these, so that you will marvel. 21“For just as the Father raises the dead and gives them life, even so the Son also gives life to whom He wishes. 22“For not even the Father judges anyone, but He has given all judgment to the Son, 23so that all will honor the Son even as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent Him.

24“Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.

25“Truly, truly, I say to you, an hour is coming and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live.26“For just as the Father has life in Himself, even so He gave to the Son also to have life in Himself; 27and He gave Him authority to execute judgment, because He is the Son of Man. 28“Do not marvel at this; for an hour is coming, in which all who are in the tombs will hear His voice, 29and will come forth; those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment.

30“I can do nothing on My own initiative. As I hear, I judge; and My judgment is just, because I do not seek My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me.

31“If I alone testify about Myself, My testimony is not true. 32“There is another who testifies of Me, and I know that the testimony which He gives about Me is true.

Hammster · Aug 7, 2019

Wordkeeper said:
I see the word "Father" there. The authority is given by the Father. Christ can do nothing without the Father.

He has the authority to lay it down and take it up. Not the Pharisees.

Wordkeeper · Aug 7, 2019

Hammster said:
He has the authority to lay it down and take it up. Not the Pharisees.

Semantics.

Ultimately, it was the Jews who forced Pilate to execute Christ.

RaymondG · Aug 7, 2019

Hammster said:
You shouldn’t speak too soon.

For this reason the Father loves Me, because I lay down My life so that I may take it again. No one has taken it away from Me, but I lay it down on My own initiative. I have authority to lay it down, and I have authority to take it up again. This commandment I received from My Father.”
— John 10:17-18

I find no fault in anything you say or believe. Thanks for the conversation.

Hammster · Aug 7, 2019

Wordkeeper said:
Semantics.

Ultimately, it was the Jews who forced Pilate to execute Christ.

So Pilate said to Him, “You do not speak to me? Do You not know that I have authority to release You, and I have authority to crucify You?” Jesus answered, “You would have no authority over Me, unless it had been given you from above; for this reason he who delivered Me to you has the greater sin.”
— John 19:10-11

Wordkeeper · Aug 7, 2019

Hammster said:
So Pilate said to Him, “You do not speak to me? Do You not know that I have authority to release You, and I have authority to crucify You?” Jesus answered, “You would have no authority over Me, unless it had been given you from above; for this reason he who delivered Me to you has the greater sin.”
— John 19:10-11

So, it was the Father, not Jesus. Thanks for proving me right.

Hammster · Aug 7, 2019

Wordkeeper said:
So, it was the Father, not Jesus. Thanks for proving me right.

If you think that God wasn’t sovereign in the crucifixion, and that it didn’t take place exactly how He wanted, then okay, I guess.

Wordkeeper · Aug 7, 2019

Hammster said:
If you think that God wasn’t sovereign in the crucifixion, and that it didn’t take place exactly how He wanted, then okay, I guess.

My main point is that Jesus took a risk every day, and God raised Him up. I only mentioned Pharisees as a help to readers to remember the situations. This risk was undertaken so that God's great works might be displayed in Him. So that people would understand and turn away from selfish living and serve selflessness, risky though it was. Because that's the Way. It was how God taught obedience. He created problems and then rescued, in the Exodus.

Hammster · Aug 7, 2019

Wordkeeper said:
My main point is that Jesus took a risk every day, and God raised Him up. I only mentioned Pharisees as a help to readers to remember the situations. This risk was undertaken so that God's great works might be displayed in Him. So that people would understand and turn away from selfish living and serve selflessness, risky though it was. Because that's the Way. It was how God taught obedience. He created problems and then rescued, in the Exodus.

Jesus did the Father’s will perfectly. There was never a risk.

Wordkeeper · Aug 7, 2019

Hammster said:
Jesus did the Father’s will perfectly. There was never a risk.

Hebrews 5
8Although He was a Son, He learned obedience from the things which He suffered.

So Jesus never emptied Himself, never suffered as a man, the danger was all a lie. Even His temptations were a lie, they could never have affected Him.

What obedience did Jesus, God, learn?

Hammster · Aug 7, 2019

Wordkeeper said:
Hebrews 5
8Although He was a Son, He learned obedience from the things which He suffered.

So Jesus never emptied Himself, never suffered as a man, the danger was all a lie. Even His temptations were a lie, they could never have affected Him.

What obedience did Jesus, God, learn?

Why are you changing the topic?

Wordkeeper · Aug 7, 2019

Hammster said:
Why are you changing the topic?

Because giving up all you have, the main topic is also a risk, the lesson being taught, the obedience we must learn. It's a motif seen throughout Scripture. God created a famine and Abraham was at risk of losing his wife and his life at Pharaoh's hand. Abraham lied, but it was God who saved. Abraham learnt that this was what God wanted him to learn. Finally, he put what was the most precious thing in his life at risk, because he expected God to save, resurrect, give Isaac back to him. People would see and lead selfless lives. This was how he thought the world would be blessed through him and his seed.

Hammster · Aug 7, 2019

Wordkeeper said:
Because giving up all you have, the main topic is also a risk, the lesson being taught, the obedience we must learn. It's a motif seen throughout Scripture. God created a famine and Abraham was at risk of losing his wife and his life at Pharaoh's hand. Abraham lied, but it was God who saved. Abraham learnt that this was what God wanted him to learn. Finally, he put what was the most precious thing in his life at risk, because he expected God to save, resurrect, give Isaac back to him. People would see and lead selfless lives. This was how he thought the world would be blessed through him and his seed.

That’s not what we were discussing. But, okay.

Guojing · Aug 7, 2019

Strong in Him said:
Peter may have not been carrying money with him, or he may not have had any; you'll have to ask him one day.
But even when Peter was following Jesus around, they had money, John 12:6, John 13:29.
As I said, Acts 2 says that the believers shared everything they had, not that they gave it all away and lived in poverty.

And this does not say that all believers have to do this.

To me, it is clear that they were practicing some form of communism, where none of them claim any private possessions but they contributed all that they have into a common pot.

As for Peter, I would take his words literally, that he really did not have silver or gold in his private possessions. As stated above, its all in the common pot.

lsume · Aug 7, 2019

RaymondG said:
To repeat the OP, It implies that you must sell all you have and give before you can be saved. I've seen no indication that you become saved and that act makes you give away physical possessions. In, fact, the best thing you can give to the poor is not silver and goal.....nay.....but what you have been given of God.

Our minds are clouded by the riches of the world, making us feel good or bad based on how much we have or dont have, give or dont give. It is this very notion that we must give away to be totally dependent on the grace of God.,,,

We are to not know with the left hand what the right hand is doing. I need to check that as to which hand but the meaning is clear. Acts of giving should be done without our own awareness. The Scripture about charity also adds clarity. Never speak of your own acts of charity. If you do, you have received your reward.

Strong in Him · Aug 8, 2019

Guojing said:
To me, it is clear that they were practicing some form of communism, where none of them claim any private possessions but they contributed all that they have into a common pot.

As for Peter, I would take his words literally, that he really did not have silver or gold in his private possessions. As stated above, its all in the common pot.

I'm not disagreeing with that.
But that is not the same as giving all your possessions away - and certainly doesn't mean that all believers have to do this today.

Before you can follow Jesus

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