To establish IF the conditional promises of the old covenant based on obedience to the law are still in effect today. To establish IF some conditional promises of the old covenant have been transferred to the new covenant.
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Are the conditional promises of the old covenant still in effect?
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To establish IF the conditional promises of the old covenant based on obedience to the law are still in effect today. To establish IF some conditional promises of the old covenant have been transferred to the new covenant.
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Moses did not write 613 laws. They make it very clear that they have added to what we receive from Moses in the Torah. There are 600,000 stokes of the pen that make up the 304,805 letters. It is a nice list to read over and study. Judaism 101: A List of the 613 Mitzvot (Commandments)
Matthew 23 "1 Then Jesus spoke to the crowds and to His disciples: 2 “The scribes and Pharisees sit inMoses’ seat. 3 So practice and observe everything they tell you. But do not do what they do, for they do not practice what they preach"
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Health or sickness is a choice we still have today. Diet - exercise & stress control has been shown in study after study to have great benefits in providing us with good health. Just like we can choose poverty or prosperity. My son is a computer engineering student. He is pretty sure that prosperity does not come easy and you have to work for it. Poverty is pretty easy to obtain: "A little sleep, a little slumber, a little folding of the hands to rest, and poverty will come upon you like a robber, and need like a bandit". Proverb 24: 33,34
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Moses did not write the 613 laws that are found in Exodus, Leviticus, Deuteronomy, and numbers?
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Always if you use God dictionary and God's definition for the meaning of the word prosperity. If you go by man's definition and use his dictionary then anything goes. The psalms begin with showing us how we can prosper. People do not realize the law was given for our benefit so God can prosper us in all we do.
Psalm 1 "Blessed is the man who does not walk in the counsel of the wicked, or set foot on the path of sinners, or sit in the seat of mockers. 2 But his delight is in the law of the LORD, and on His law he meditates day and night. 3 He is like a tree planted by streams of water, yielding its fruit in season, whose leaf does not wither, and who prospers in all he does.
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Moses wrote the laws in the Torah but he did not write all 613 laws that the Hasidim people teach and we find in many places online. They believe it is acceptable to add to what we receive from Moses as long as it is clear what we receive from Moses and what they added to the law. Paul talks about the letter of the law and the righteous requirements of the law: "so that the righteous standard of the Law might be fulfilled in us, who do not live according to the flesh but according to the Spirit." (Romans 8:4) Most people do not understand what Paul was talking about: (2Peter3:16) "Consider also that our Lord’s patience brings salvation, just as our beloved brother Paul also wrote you with the wisdom God gave him. He writes this way in all his letters, speaking in them about such matters. Some parts of his letters are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the rest of the Scriptures, to their own destruction. "
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So when you stated we can choose poverty or prosperity, you were referring spiritual standing before God and not the materialistic definitions found in the dictionary?
I'm not quite following you. If you count all the laws written in the torah (exodus, Leviticus, Deuteronomy, numbers) there are 613.
The additions to the 613 laws are found in the Mishnah, which was an oral commentary on the laws of Moses
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I am talking about what Moses tells us in Deu 30:15 "See, I have set before you today life and prosperity, as well as death and disaster. " We have many choices: life or death, sickness or health, poverty or prosperity, blessing or curse. The people that do brain surgery tells us that a highly evolved area of our brain can make choices and perform abstract thinking. This is what sets us apart from the animals that really do not make choices the way we do. This is what makes us human. This began in Genesis chapter 3 with the tree of the knowledge of good & evil and the serpent. We read that Eve had a choice and the serpent beguiled her into making the wrong choice. Some people talk about Queen Esther and how she had all the same choices that Eve had only Esther made the right choices.
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JIMINZ
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God set before the people what He wanted them to physically choose.
That is a far cry from them making their own choices up to that moment, either for their benefit or their doom.
They were pressed by God to Choose, it wasn't a free will choosing on their part.
Are you assuming, because God made the people of Israel to choose, between Blessing or Cursing, that we have automatically been given the same choices to make by God?
If so, why so?
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Deut 30:19 "This day I call the heavens and the earth as witnesses against you that I have set before you life and death, blessings and curses. Now choose life, so that you and your children may live."
Believe what you want. There has been a lot of discussion over this if we really do have choice or not. If the Bible says: "Now choose life" and we do not really have a choice then we are no longer responsible. We are just like the animals. We are not made in the image of God. It would be wrong to put people in prison because they did not have a choice. They had to commit their crime.
Science says we have choice, the legal system says we have the freedom to choose right from wrong. The Bible tells us to choose. Yet you do not think we have choice. Even though the neurologists can tell us the exact part of the brain where choice takes place.
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Yes Israel is a shadow and a type of the work that God is now doing in the church. Only they lived under the law and we live under grace. We have better promises then them.
In Bible school they teach Bible interpretation. First we look at the origional audience how the Bible was written for them. Then we can look at how the Bible applies to us in our day and age. Clearly we do not perform animals sacrifices but the teaching in the Bible still applies to us. I esp follow the teaching in the Bible for our priesthood. Even though the Leviticus priesthood is a lot different than the priesthood that Peter talks about: 1Peter 2:9 "But you are a chosen people, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, God's special possession, that you may declare the praises of him who called you out of darkness into his wonderful light."
Matthew 11:11
Truly I tell you, among those born of women there has risen no one greater than John the Baptist. Yet even the least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he.
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ralliann
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I am not so sure this is right. It seems scripture says that If, Israel keeps the Sinai covenant, then God will keep for them the Abrahamic covenant.
De 7:12 Wherefore it shall come to pass, if ye hearken to these judgments, and keep, and do them, that the LORD thy God shall keep unto thee the covenant and the mercy which he sware unto thy fathers:
So both Covenants are distinct here. But the part for the fathers in Abrahamic covenant is keeping the circumcision of their household.
The Mosaic covenant does not have any part for God does it?
God simply says he will keep unto them the former covenant blessings etc.
If this notion is correct then God himself does not have an obligation in the Sinai covenant, other than keeping the Abrahamic covenant unto them if they are faithful to their covenant.
I am thinking the difference is
To not add nor take away from each covenant.
Israel could not keep its covenant. Therefore God had no part to keep in that covenant.
16 Who is made, not after the law of a carnal commandment, but after the power of an endless life.
17 For he testifieth, Thou art a priest for ever after the order of Melchisedec.
18 For there is verily a disannulling of the commandment going before for the weakness and unprofitableness thereof.
19 For the law made nothing perfect, but the bringing in of a better hope did; by the which we draw nigh unto God. {the bringing … : or, it was the bringing in }
Well, they are still keeping the Abrahamic covenant in circumcision of their Children.
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Right, but Israel was unable to choose life and hold up their part of the old covenant agreement, thus in Jeremiah, it was prophesied that new covenant would be formed with houses of Israel and Judah.
Hebrews 8:7-8 For if that first covenant had been without fault, no place would have been sought for a second. But God found fault with the people and said: “Behold, the days are coming, declares the Lord,
when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah.
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As Paul clearly states, the addition of the old covenant DOES NOT ANNUL the covenant made with Abraham as to make the promise void.
Galatians 3:16-18 Now the promises were made to Abraham and to his offspring. It does not say, “And to offsprings,” referring to many, but referring to one, “And to your offspring,” who is Christ. This is what I mean: the law, which came 430 years afterward, does not annul a covenant previously ratified by God, so as to make the promise void. For if the inheritance comes by the law, it no longer comes by promise; but God gave it to Abraham by a promise.
Paul states that the Abrahamic promises (PLURAL) were made to Abraham and his offspring. The offspring being Christ.
The addition of the old covenant, which was conditional upon Israel's obedience to the law of Moses, does not annul the unconditional promises to Abraham and his offspring, because the offspring is Jesus.
The abrahamic promises are to Abraham's offspring, who is Christ. The old covenant was made with the nation of Israel.
It does. IF Israel obeyed the law of Moses, GOd would bless Israel (deuteronomy 28:1-14). IF Israel disobeyed the law of Moses, God would curse Israel (deuteronomy 28:15-68). After the blessings and curses had been poured, IF Israel turned back to God, He would restore them from captivity and return them to the land and cirucmcise their heart (Deuteronomy 30:1-6).
So we see that God does have promises to fulfill in the old covenant agreement, whether it is bestowing blessings or curses on Israel.
So is this old covenant agreement still in effect? Are the conditional promises of the old covenant still in effect?
bingo. And knowing this He prophesied through Jeremiah that He would make a new covenant with the house of Israel and Judah.
Hebrews 8:7-8 For if that first covenant had been faultless, there would have been no occasion to look for a second.For he finds fault with them when he says:c “Behold, the days are coming, declares the Lord,when I will establish a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah,
And this old covenant agreement was taken away and made obsolete.
Hebrews 8:13 In speaking of a new covenant, he makes the first one obsolete. And what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.
Hebrews 10:9 then he added, “Behold, I have come to do your will.” He does away with the first in order to establish the second.
For what purpose? As Paul reveals, the blessing of Abraham is for both circumcised and uncircumcised, for Abraham's faith was counted as righteousness BEFORE he was circumcised. The purpose of Abraham's circumcision was a seal of the righteousness he had by faith prior to be circumcised, as revealed by Paul, in order that he would be the father of both the circumcised and uncircumcised. Thus becoming the father of many nations.
Romans 4:9-12 Is this blessing then only for the circumcised, or also for the uncircumcised? For we say that faith was counted to Abraham as righteousness. How then was it counted to him? Was it before or after he had been circumcised? It was not after, but before he was circumcised. He received the sign of circumcision as a seal of the righteousness that he had by faith while he was still uncircumcised. The purpose was to make him the father of all who believe without being circumcised, so that righteousness would be counted to them as well, and to make him the father of the circumcised who are not merely circumcised but who also walk in the footsteps of the faith that our father Abraham had before he was circumcised.
Since the promiseS (PLURAL) are to Abraham and his offspring, the offspring being Jesus, the fulfillment of these promises are found in Christ. Thus the everlasting covenant of circumcision with Abraham and his offspring, is with Christ.
Galatians 3:16 Now the promises were made to Abraham and to his offspring. It does not say, “And to offsprings,” referring to many, but referring to one, “And to your offspring,” who is Christ.
Per Paul, Circumcision is only value if you obey the law. Thus we see that circumcision had its value through the Abrahamic promises and the old covenant until Christ, in whom its everlasting fulfillment is found.
Romans 2:25-27 For circumcision indeed is of value if you obey the law, but if you break the law, your circumcision becomes uncircumcision. So, if a man who is uncircumcised keeps the precepts of the law, will not his uncircumcision be regardedb as circumcision? Then he who is physicallyc uncircumcised but keeps the law will condemn you who have the written coded and circumcision but break the law.
And so because the promises to Abraham and his offspring (Christ) are fulfilled in Christ and the old covenant agreement was taken away and made obsolete for those in Christ, neither circumsion nor uncircumcision count for anything.
Galatians 5:6 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision counts for anything, but only faith working through love.
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It is impossible for us to choose life unless the son sets us free.
John 8:34-36 Jesus answered them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone who practices sin is a slaveb to sin. The slave does not remain in the house forever; the son remains forever. So if the Son sets you free, you will be free indeed.
John 15:5 I am the vine and you are the branches. The one who remains in Me, and I in him, will bear much fruit. For apart from Me you can do nothing.
Thus I would argue it was impossible for the nation of Israel to choose life under the old covenant. And we have evidence of this, as both the House of Israel and House of Judah received the curses of the law for their disobedience.
But we know the law was never meant to bring life. It was in fact a ministry of death. It was only meant as a guardian until Christ would come.
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So are you saying we have no choice? Jesus is a bully and He forces us to accept His will if we want to or not? That does not sound like the Jesus I know. Nor does this sound like something Jesus would teach.
Jesus told the thief on the cross that he would be in paradise with Jesus. We read in the Bible about Abrahams Bosom. "22 One day the beggar died and was carried by the angels to Abraham’s side. And the rich man also died and was buried. 23 In Hades, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham from afar, with Lazarus by his side."Luke 16:23
It is clear that the good or righteous go to a different place then the people that end up in Hades. IF it is impossible to choose life then why would Deut 30:19 tell us to "Now choose life, so that you and your children may live"? What you are saying seems to contradict what Moses is telling us.
Moses gives us two words to work with: הַחַיִּ֤ים ha-ḥay-yîm & בַּֽחַיִּ֔ים ba-ḥay-yîm, The first letter of the word is changed and that is significant because the first letter i a word sets the pace for the whole world. We can do a study of these letters to determine the meaning of the word life. We are dealing with the letter Hei and the Letter Bet. In one the letter Hei we are told this has to do with expression & revolation, giving and receiving, unity and complete. The pronunciation of Hei is HAY an expression we use when we want to get someones attention. This letter is made up of two pen strokes the vav for the foot and the delet for the servant.
We could go on looking at what this word means, but the main choice seems to be the tree of the knowledge of good and evil and the tree of life. Eve was given that choice in the Garden. Are you suggesting that she made that choice for everyone and they do not get to make that choice for themselves? We know now that the tree of life is in Heaven.
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He is saying that the law does not save us, Jesus saves us. The law is still a teacher to show us the way of righteousness. Paul is not suggesting lawlessness at all.
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Israel is looking for the Lion of Judah, they do not understand the Lamb of God. Rev 5:5 "5 Then one of the elders said to me, “Do not weep! Behold, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the root of David, has triumphed to open the scroll and its seven seals.”
This is the same David who begins the Psalms with:
"1 Blessed is the man who does not walk in the counsel of the wicked, or set foot on the path of sinners, or sit in the seat of mockers. 2 But his delight is in the law of the LORD, and on His law he meditates day and night. 3 He is like a tree planted by streams of water, yielding its fruit in season, whose leaf does not wither, and who prospers in all he does" Psalm 1 (note the tree of life that we read about in Rev)
The beginning ALWAYS sets the pace David begins with expressing his "delight in the law of the Lord". This is the way of life - health & prosperity. If people do not understand they are on the way to destruction. As Peter tells us: "His letters contain some things that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the other Scriptures, to their own destruction." (2 Peter 3:16)
This is why in my vision Paul told me himself that we are to live right before God. We were discussing Psalm 14: The Fool Says There is No God "1 For the choirmaster. Of David. The fool says in his heart, “There is no God.” They are corrupt; their acts are vile. There is no one who does good. 2 The LORD looks down from heaven upon the sons of men to see if any understand, if any seek God. 3 All have turned away, they have together become corrupt; there is no one who does good, not even one."
There is a clear distinction between those who belong to God and those who do not. If I had not had this vision of Paul, I would skip over this pretty quick. But as it is I keep coming back to what David and Paul are telling us and wanting us to know.
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