Did the Early Church Fathers teach "Calvinism?"

BNR32FAN · Aug 6, 2019

timothyu said:
To be love. Hence for our fellow man, not just God, right?
After all, if God is love, He cannot work through us unless we are love, and He is not working towards Himself, but all of mankind through those of us who are love alone.

That’s an interesting way of putting it brother Timothy. Personally I’ve always just viewed it as obeying Jesus’ two most important commandments. Love God with all your heart, soul, and mind; and love each other as Jesus loves us. Your view appears to be similar.

BNR32FAN · Aug 6, 2019

redleghunter said:
You keep leaving out the preceding verses? Why?

Amen I was just having that same discussion about being His sheep. The other person insists that we are His sheep before we hear and follow. I don’t know how anyone can believe and have faith without hearing the gospel and I don’t know how anyone can be His sheep without believing and having faith.

timothyu · Aug 6, 2019

BNR32FAN said:
That’s an interesting way of putting it brother Timothy. Personally I’ve always just viewed it as obeying Jesus’ two most important commandments. Love God with all your heart, soul, and mind; and love each other as Jesus loves us. Your view appears to be similar.

Well to put God's will before our own is to open the door to allow Him to work through us, and loving all as self is the way of the Kingdom, and repentant man.

renniks · Aug 6, 2019

redleghunter said:
Well you keep lumping this in and don't know why. I already provided to you what the Bible teaches on the Sovereignty of God and also that God is not the author of sin and does not cause us to sin. You seem to see this as a contradiction or perhaps a paradox. But no contradiction or paradox exists given that since the fall of mankind we are all sons of wrath and disobedience. A pretty sad state for humanity and the whole reason Jesus came be our substitute and savior.

This is your created theological monster, not mine, not Reformed.

A tendency towards sin? I think we have found the issue. Without the Blood of Christ we are enemies of God.

Romans 5: NASB

1Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, 2through whom also we have obtained our introduction by faith into this grace in which we stand; and we exult in hope of the glory of God. 3And not only this, but we also exult in our tribulations, knowing that tribulation brings about perseverance; 4and perseverance, proven character; and proven character, hope; 5and hope does not disappoint, because the love of God has been poured out within our hearts through the Holy Spirit who was given to us.

6For while we were still helpless, at the right time Christ died for the ungodly. 7For one will hardly die for a righteous man; though perhaps for the good man someone would dare even to die. 8But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. 9Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from the wrath of God through Him. 10For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life. 11And not only this, but we also exult in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received the reconciliation.

12Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned— 13for until the Law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law. 14Nevertheless death reigned from Adam until Moses, even over those who had not sinned in the likeness of the offense of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come.

15But the free gift is not like the transgression. For if by the transgression of the one the many died, much more did the grace of God and the gift by the grace of the one Man, Jesus Christ, abound to the many. 16The gift is not like that which came through the one who sinned; for on the one hand the judgment arose from one transgression resulting in condemnation, but on the other hand the free gift arose from many transgressions resulting in justification. 17For if by the transgression of the one, death reigned through the one, much more those who receive the abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ.

18So then as through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men, even so through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to all men. 19For as through the one man’s disobedience the many were made sinners, even so through the obedience of the One the many will be made righteous. 20The Law came in so that the transgression would increase; but where sin increased, grace abounded all the more, 21so that, as sin reigned in death, even so grace would reign through righteousness to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Do you think I'm unaware of these scriptures? I'm fully aware that we must be justified through Christ's blood and that we are naturally sinners. Where Calvinists take this too far, is to say for example, Dead in ones sins equal a corpse like state where no one can do anything good. That is contradicted by many references in the Bible to devout men who were not yet justified by faith in Christ. "Total Depravity" is a term that creates the notion in one's mind that a natural person is as bad as it is possible to be. If that were the case, no non Christian could display any shred of compassion, any glimpse of grace and on and on. It's just not the reality we see around us. We all need saving. Very few of us are as evil as it is possible to be, thankfully. And sadly, none of us will ever be as good as we should be this side of glory.

redleghunter · Aug 6, 2019

BABerean2 said:
You did not answer the question?

What is "The law" in that section of the WCF?

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Obedience.

BABerean2 · Aug 6, 2019

redleghunter said:
You have not answered my question yet. Do dead men hear, speak respond?

Act 10:1 There was a certain man in Caesarea called Cornelius, a centurion of the band called the Italian band,
Act 10:2 A devout man, and one that feared God with all his house, which gave much alms to the people, and prayed to God alway.
Act 10:3 He saw in a vision evidently about the ninth hour of the day an angel of God coming in to him, and saying unto him, Cornelius.
Act 10:4 And when he looked on him, he was afraid, and said, What is it, Lord? And he said unto him, Thy prayers and thine alms are come up for a memorial before God.
Act 10:5 And now send men to Joppa, and call for one Simon, whose surname is Peter:
Act 10:6 He lodgeth with one Simon a tanner, whose house is by the sea side: he shall tell thee what thou oughtest to do.
Act 10:7 And when the angel which spake unto Cornelius was departed, he called two of his household servants, and a devout soldier of them that waited on him continually;

Act 8:31 And he said, How can I, except some man should guide me? And he desired Philip that he would come up and sit with him.
Act 8:32 The place of the scripture which he read was this, He was led as a sheep to the slaughter; and like a lamb dumb before his shearer, so opened he not his mouth:
Act 8:33 In his humiliation his judgment was taken away: and who shall declare his generation? for his life is taken from the earth.
Act 8:34 And the eunuch answered Philip, and said, I pray thee, of whom speaketh the prophet this? of himself, or of some other man?

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redleghunter · Aug 6, 2019

BABerean2 said:
Since infants have not come to faith during their water baptism, they must have become the "elect" through the will of God.
They must have been "predestined" to be the "elect".

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Romans 8: NASB

28And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose. 29For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren; 30and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified.

BABerean2 · Aug 6, 2019

redleghunter said:
Obedience.

"Obedience" to what ?

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redleghunter · Aug 6, 2019

BNR32FAN said:
First we must hear the gospel in order to believe. Then when we believe we begin to have faith that God will grant us His grace thereby we are justified and sanctified by the indwelling Holy Spirit who enables us to resist the temptation of our flesh aka our sinful nature as long as we are steadfast and continue in our faith. As we grow in faith we grow in our walk in the Spirit (the sanctification process) but we must adhere to the guidelines of the Holy Spirit in order for the sanctification process to continue. If we disregard the guidance of the Holy Spirit we cannot walk in the Spirit and are backsliding into our former sinful nature. If this happens we must repent and turn back to God in order to continue our walk in the Spirit. You see the Holy Spirit is like a compass always pointing the way to God. He does not steer the boat. If we fall asleep at the wheel we may wake to find ourselves way off course or maybe worse, shipwrecked for Ye know not when the master of the house may return.

Where in the above do we go from being dead in our sins and transgressions and God making us alive in Jesus Christ?

Put another way, when does God give us a new heart and remove the heart of stone?

BABerean2 · Aug 6, 2019

redleghunter said:
29For those whom He foreknew,

29For those whom He foreknew,

G4267
προγινώσκω
proginōskō
prog-in-oce'-ko
From G4253 and G1097; to know beforehand, that is, foresee: - foreknow (ordain), know (before).
Total KJV occurrences: 5

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redleghunter · Aug 6, 2019

BNR32FAN said:
Amen I was just having that same discussion about being His sheep. The other person insists that we are His sheep before we hear and follow. I don’t know how anyone can believe and have faith without hearing the gospel and I don’t know how anyone can be His sheep without believing and having faith.

The Gospel is the spoken word God proclaims “Lazarus Rise!” Dead men don’t hear unless called forth from God. That is why when the Gospel is preached some come to Christ in godly sorrow and repentance and some do not.

The hearing ear and the seeing eye, The LORD has made both of them. (Proverbs 20:12)

Matthew 13: NASB

10And the disciples came and said to Him, “Why do You speak to them in parables?” 11Jesus answered them, “To you it has been granted to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been granted. 12“For whoever has, to him more shall be given, and he will have an abundance; but whoever does not have, even what he has shall be taken away from him.13“Therefore I speak to them in parables; because while seeing they do not see, and while hearing they do not hear, nor do they understand.

14“In their case the prophecy of Isaiah is being fulfilled, which says,
‘YOU WILL KEEP ON HEARING, BUT WILL NOT UNDERSTAND;
YOU WILL KEEP ON SEEING, BUT WILL NOT PERCEIVE;

15FOR THE HEART OF THIS PEOPLE HAS BECOME DULL,
WITH THEIR EARS THEY SCARCELY HEAR,
AND THEY HAVE CLOSED THEIR EYES,
OTHERWISE THEY WOULD SEE WITH THEIR EYES,
HEAR WITH THEIR EARS,
AND UNDERSTAND WITH THEIR HEART AND RETURN,
AND I WOULD HEAL THEM.’

redleghunter · Aug 6, 2019

renniks said:
Do you think I'm unaware of these scriptures? I'm fully aware that we must be justified through Christ's blood and that we are naturally sinners. Where Calvinists take this too far, is to say for example, Dead in ones sins equal a corpse like state where no one can do anything good. That is contradicted by many references in the Bible to devout men who were not yet justified by faith in Christ. "Total Depravity" is a term that creates the notion in one's mind that a natural person is as bad as it is possible to be. If that were the case, no non Christian could display any shred of compassion, any glimpse of grace and on and on. It's just not the reality we see around us. We all need saving. Very few of us are as evil as it is possible to be, thankfully. And sadly, none of us will ever be as good as we should be this side of glory.

No that’s not total depravity. But I did not bring up that term. I posted Paul describing our inherited sinful state.

Romans 3 really depicts our state and that is what I was getting at. And yes in Ephesians 2 Paul once again paints a dire picture of our state. And he does say we are dead in our trespasses and sins, and by nature children of wrath.

Do children of wrath do kind things to others. Sure that’s observable. Paul is arguing our spiritually dead state where only God can quicken us.

redleghunter · Aug 6, 2019

BABerean2 said:
Act 10:1 There was a certain man in Caesarea called Cornelius, a centurion of the band called the Italian band,
Act 10:2 A devout man, and one that feared God with all his house, which gave much alms to the people, and prayed to God alway.
Act 10:3 He saw in a vision evidently about the ninth hour of the day an angel of God coming in to him, and saying unto him, Cornelius.
Act 10:4 And when he looked on him, he was afraid, and said, What is it, Lord? And he said unto him, Thy prayers and thine alms are come up for a memorial before God.
Act 10:5 And now send men to Joppa, and call for one Simon, whose surname is Peter:
Act 10:6 He lodgeth with one Simon a tanner, whose house is by the sea side: he shall tell thee what thou oughtest to do.
Act 10:7 And when the angel which spake unto Cornelius was departed, he called two of his household servants, and a devout soldier of them that waited on him continually;

Act 8:31 And he said, How can I, except some man should guide me? And he desired Philip that he would come up and sit with him.
Act 8:32 The place of the scripture which he read was this, He was led as a sheep to the slaughter; and like a lamb dumb before his shearer, so opened he not his mouth:
Act 8:33 In his humiliation his judgment was taken away: and who shall declare his generation? for his life is taken from the earth.
Act 8:34 And the eunuch answered Philip, and said, I pray thee, of whom speaketh the prophet this? of himself, or of some other man?

.

What is your point? God did not first quicken these men? I mean God sent an angel to Cornelius and an Apostle to the Ethiopian man.

It really looks like God prepared the hearts of these men to receive the Gospel.

redleghunter · Aug 6, 2019

BABerean2 said:
"Obedience" to what ?

.

God’s command to obey Him and not partake of the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil.

redleghunter · Aug 6, 2019

BABerean2 said:
29For those whom He foreknew,

G4267
προγινώσκω
proginōskō
prog-in-oce'-ko
From G4253 and G1097; to know beforehand, that is, foresee: - foreknow (ordain), know (before).
Total KJV occurrences: 5

.

Foreknew to conform. That’s what I was getting at. That is the relation.

redleghunter · Aug 6, 2019

Sam91 said:
Yes but you can now google it to find the relevant texts which can lead you to the source?

Do you mean Mark should dig deeper to find what the guy is asserting even though he offers no evidence.

That would be like:

Ladies and Gentlemen of the jury, I can’t prove right now of the claims I am making but go ahead and research my claims for yourselves and you will hopefully find the answer.

redleghunter · Aug 6, 2019

BNR32FAN said:
My belief is that God desires our love. Love is the only thing we can offer to Him that is of any value. Without the free will to choose to love God what value would our love actually have?

We love God first?

We love, because He first loved us.

Sam91 · Aug 7, 2019

redleghunter said:
Do you mean Mark should dig deeper to find what the guy is asserting even though he offers no evidence.

That would be like:

Ladies and Gentlemen of the jury, I can’t prove right now of the claims I am making but go ahead and research my claims for yourselves and you will hopefully find the answer.

If you say so. I just know that feeling when reading articles. My interest is aroused but no solution. I was trying to make him feel better by suggesting that maybe he has a starting point to research.

I was trying to show kindness and be helpful.

BABerean2 · Aug 7, 2019

redleghunter said:
God’s command to obey Him and not partake of the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil.

No unbiased witness would find your version in chapter 19 of the WCF.

Chapter 19: Of the Law of God | Reformed Theology at A Puritan's Mind

"1. God gave to Adam a law, as a covenant of works, by which he bound him and all his posterity to personal, entire, exact, and perpetual obedience; promised life upon the fulfilling, and threatened death upon the breach of it; and endued him with power and ability to keep it.a

a. Gen 1:26-27 with 2:17; Job 28:28; Eccl 7:29; Rom 2:14-15; 5:12, 19; 10:5; Gal 3:10, 12.

2. This law, after his fall, continued to be a perfect rule of righteousness; and, as such, was delivered by God upon mount Sinai in ten commandments, and written in two tables;a the first four commandments containing our duty towards God, and the other six our duty to man.b

a. Exod 34:1; Deut 5:32; 10:4; Rom 13:8-9; James 1:25; 2:8, 10-12. • b. Mat 22:37-40.

3. Beside this law, commonly called moral, God was pleased to give to the people of Israel, as a Church under age, ceremonial laws, containing several typical ordinances, partly of worship, prefiguring Christ, his graces, actions, sufferings, and benefits;a and partly holding forth divers instructions of moral duties.b All which ceremonial laws are now abrogated under the New Testament.c

a. Gal 4:1-3; Col 2:17; Heb 9 throughout; 10:1. • b. 1 Cor 5:7; 2 Cor 6:17; Jude 1:23. • c. Dan 9:27; Eph 2:15-16; Col 2:14, 16-17.

4. To them also, as a body politic, he gave sundry judicial laws, which expired together with the State of that people, not obliging any other, now, further than the general equity thereof may require.a

a. Gen 49:10 with 1 Pet 2:13-14; Exod 21 throughout; 22:1-29; Mat 5:17 with 5:38-39; 1 Cor 9:8-10.

5. The moral law doth forever bind all, as well justified persons as others, to the obedience thereof;a and that not only in regard of the matter contained in it, but also in respect of the authority of God the Creator who gave it.b Neither doth Christ in the gospel any way dissolve, but much strengthen, this obligation.c

a. Rom 13:8-10; Eph 6:2; 1 John 2:3-4, 7-8. • b. James 2:10-11. • c. Mat 5:17-19; Rom 3:31; James 2:8."

If the New Covenant has made the Old Covenant "obsolete" in Hebrews 8:13, how many people alive today have ever broken the 4th commandment?
What did Paul say below?

Col 2:16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:
Col 2:17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ.

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BABerean2 · Aug 7, 2019

redleghunter said:
What is your point? God did not first quicken these men? I mean God sent an angel to Cornelius and an Apostle to the Ethiopian man.

Did Cornelius receive the Holy Spirit before Peter preached the Gospel ?
That would be the point.

Act 10:44 While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word.

Act 11:15 And as I began to speak, the Holy Ghost fell on them, as on us at the beginning.
Act 11:16 Then remembered I the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost.

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Did the Early Church Fathers teach "Calvinism?"

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