LDS LDS Earning Eternal Life

Peter1000 · Aug 5, 2019

Phoebe Ann said:
Because we LOVE Him! I've told you this before. We are freed from Satan's power and are children of light.

Just the concept that a believer has to always be careful to maintain good works seems to counter the idea that Christ's righteousness always covers us.

If you have to be watchful and careful to maintain good works, it implies that if you do not maintain good works there is a negative affect that will effect your eternal life status.

I agree with you that 'IF' we love him, we are freed from satan's power. If we are freed from satans power we will not sin. So if you do sin, it means that you are not fully freed from satans power, and therefore you must be always careful to maintain good works to stay freed from satans power.

Therefore we can say with reasonableness that Christ imputs his righteousness, but that imputing needs to be bolstered by our righteous good works or the power of satan may worm its way into our lives, and effect our eternal life.

Rescued One · Aug 5, 2019

Peter1000 said:
Just the concept that a believer has to always be careful to maintain good works seems to counter the idea that Christ's righteousness always covers us.

No, that is you reading Mormonism into those words. If I buy a cake mix, I'm going to engage my brain and read the instructions on the back of the box. If God was willing to give His Son for my salvation, I have the desire via the Holy Spirit to follow His instructions, not to gain something better than eternal life(there is nothing better), but through God's grace to bring glory to God.

Matthew 5
14 Ye are the light of the world. A city that is set on an hill cannot be hid. 15 Neither do men light a candle, and put it under a bushel, but on a candlestick; and it giveth light unto all that are in the house. 16 Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.

Philippians 2
14 Do all things without murmurings and disputings: 15 That ye may be blameless and harmless, the sons of God, without rebuke, in the midst of a crooked and perverse nation, among whom ye shine as lights in the world;

Peter1000 said:
If you have to be watchful and careful to maintain good works, it implies that if you do not maintain good works there is a negative affect that will effect your eternal life status.

My eternal status is secure. What that implies to a Mormon is exactly what you stated. What it says to a Christian is that we maintain good works to bring glory to God.

Peter1000 said:
I agree with you that 'IF' we love him, we are freed from satan's power.

There is no "IF we love Him." Christians have been freed by Christ, not themselves. We love Him because He first loved us. A person under Satan's power does not love God; that person is in darkness!

Peter1000 said:
If we are freed from satans power we will not sin.

If we are freed from Satan's power, we will strive to walk in the light. We won't have a desire to return to the darkness we were in.

1 John 1
5 This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all. 6 If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth: 7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin. 8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

Peter1000 said:
So if you do sin, it means that you are not fully freed from satans power, and therefore you must be always careful to maintain good works to stay freed from satans power.

No, it means that we will repent because no one, not even Satan, can separate us from our new life. We belong to Christ and He is much stronger than Satan!

John 10
27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: 28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. 29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.

Peter1000 said:
Therefore we can say with reasonableness that Christ imputs his righteousness, but that imputing needs to be bolstered by our righteous good works or the power of satan may worm its way into our lives, and effect our eternal life.

Your shepherd is very weak and expects the sheep to protect themselves? They might as well have no shepherd!

John 10
11 I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep. 12 But he that is an hireling, and not the shepherd, whose own the sheep are not, seeth the wolf coming, and leaveth the sheep, and fleeth: and the wolf catcheth them, and scattereth the sheep. 13 The hireling fleeth, because he is an hireling, and careth not for the sheep.

Rescued One · Aug 5, 2019

He is the way said:
You said: "Matthew relates what Jesus said to a Jew before He paid the price of our sins. Gentiles are not under the 613 commandments.

Jesus said otherwise:

(New Testament | Matthew 5:17 - 20)

17 ¶ Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.
20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.

Then Jesus went on to give the higher law. The true gospel is to KEEP THE COMMANDMENTS.
I will continue to teach the true gospel of Jesus Christ

He wasn't speaking to Gentiles and you don't follow the 613 commandments.

He is the way · Aug 5, 2019

Phoebe Ann said:
He wasn't speaking to Gentiles and you don't follow the 613 commandments.

I am flabbergasted that anyone would say that God's commandments do not pertain to the Gentiles!:

(New Testament | Romans 2:6 - 16)

6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,
9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:
11 For there is no respect of persons with God.
12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;
13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.
14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another

16 In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.

Rescued One · Aug 5, 2019

He is the way said:
I am flabbergasted that anyone would say that God's commandments do not pertain to the Gentiles!:

(New Testament | Romans 2:6 - 16)

6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,
9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:
11 For there is no respect of persons with God.
12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;
13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.
14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another
16 In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.

I did NOT say that! Do you eat bacon and/or other pork products?

You don't keep the law of Moses as Mormons call it! I am not flabbergasted that you choose to keep the commandments of Joseph Smith.

He is the way · Aug 6, 2019

Phoebe Ann said:
I did NOT say that! Do you eat bacon and/or other pork products?

You don't keep the law of Moses as Mormons call it! I am not flabbergasted that you choose to keep the commandments of Joseph Smith.

So what are the 613 commandments? Certainly some of them would pertain to the gentiles.

Rescued One · Aug 6, 2019

He is the way said:
So what are the 613 commandments? Certainly some of them would pertain to the gentiles.

The salvation that pertains to the Gentiles is given in the New Testament.

Romans 9
30 What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith. 31 But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness. 32 Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;

He is the way · Aug 7, 2019

Phoebe Ann said:
The salvation that pertains to the Gentiles is given in the New Testament.

Romans 9
30 What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith. 31 But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness. 32 Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;

Everyone is subject to the laws of God as Paul stated:

(New Testament | Romans 6:1 - 18)

1 WHAT shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?
3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:
6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.
8 Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:
9 Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him.
10 For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God.
11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.
12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.
13 Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.
14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.
15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.
16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.
18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of righteousness.

No one is exempt from this passage.

He is the way · Aug 7, 2019

(New Testament | Romans 2:6 - 13)

6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,
9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:
11 For there is no respect of persons with God.
12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;
13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

Rescued One · Aug 8, 2019

Luke 18
9 And he spake this parable unto certain which trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and despised others: 10 Two men went up into the temple to pray; the one a Pharisee, and the other a publican. 11 The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican. 12 I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess. 13 And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner. 14 I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted.

"Now, all the world today, I am sorry to say, with the exception of a handful of people who have obeyed the new and everlasting covenant, are suffering this spiritual death. They are cast out from the presence of God. They are without God, without Gospel truth, and without the power of redemption; for they know not God nor His Gospel. In order that they may be redeemed and saved from the spiritual death which has spread over the world like a pall, they must repent of their sins, and be baptized by one having [LDS] authority, for the remission of sins, that they may be born of God. That is why we want these young men to go out into the world to preach the Gospel. While they themselves understand but little perhaps, the germ of life is in them."
President Joseph F. Smith, Conference Report, Oct. 1899, p. 72 and Gospel Doctrine, p. 433

Also quoted in:
Book of Mormon Student Manual, Copyright 1989, p. 111; copyright 1996, Chapter 38

Peter1000 · Aug 9, 2019

Phoebe Ann said:
Phoebe Ann said:

No, that is you reading Mormonism into those words. If I buy a cake mix, I'm going to engage my brain and read the instructions on the back of the box. If God was willing to give His Son for my salvation, I have the desire via the Holy Spirit to follow His instructions, not to gain something better than eternal life(there is nothing better), but through God's grace to bring glory to God.

Click to expand...

Matthew 5
14 Ye are the light of the world. A city that is set on an hill cannot be hid. 15 Neither do men light a candle, and put it under a bushel, but on a candlestick; and it giveth light unto all that are in the house. 16 Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.

Philippians 2
14 Do all things without murmurings and disputings: 15 That ye may be blameless and harmless, the sons of God, without rebuke, in the midst of a crooked and perverse nation, among whom ye shine as lights in the world;

My eternal status is secure. What that implies to a Mormon is exactly what you stated. What it says to a Christian is that we maintain good works to being glory to God.

There is no "IF we love Him." Christians have been freed by Christ, not themselves. We love Him because He first loved us. A person under Satan's power does not love God; that person is in darkness!

If we are freed from Satan's power, we will strive to walk in the light. We won't have a desire to return to the darkness we were in.

1 John 1
5 This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all. 6 If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth: 7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin. 8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

No, it means that we will repent because no one, not even Satan, can separate us from our new life. We belong to Christ and He is much stronger than Satan!

John 10
27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: 28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. 29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.

Your shepherd is very weak and expects the sheep to protect themselves? They might as well have no shepherd!

John 10
11 I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep. 12 But he that is an hireling, and not the shepherd, whose own the sheep are not, seeth the wolf coming, and leaveth the sheep, and fleeth: and the wolf catcheth them, and scattereth the sheep. 13 The hireling fleeth, because he is an hireling, and careth not for the sheep.

View attachment 260558 View attachment 260557

No, that is what the text actually says. Here it is again:
they which have believed in God might be careful to maintain good works.

Tell me your interpretation then of this text.
Titus 3:8
8 This is a faithful saying, and these things I will that thou affirm constantly, that
they which have believed in God might be careful to maintain good works.

This is Paul speaking to the believers, and says this is a good saying to confirm always, so it seems to be important, to be careful to maintain good works.

Our interpretation is: as a believer we are careful to maintain good works , and we know this is a good saying that we confirm constantly.

Tell me your interpretation of the text in the bible. Thank you.

Rescued One · Aug 9, 2019

Peter1000 said:
No, that is what the text actually says. Here it is again:
they which have believed in God might be careful to maintain good works.

Tell me your interpretation then of this text.
Titus 3:8
8 This is a faithful saying, and these things I will that thou affirm constantly, that
they which have believed in God might be careful to maintain good works.

This is Paul speaking to the believers, and says this is a good saying to confirm always, so it seems to be important, to be careful to maintain good works.

Our interpretation is: as a believer we are careful to maintain good works , and we know this is a good saying that we confirm constantly.

Tell me your interpretation of the text in the bible. Thank you.

I answered that in Post #22:

Peter1000 said:
If you have to be watchful and careful to maintain good works, it implies that if you do not maintain good works there is a negative affect that will effect your eternal life status.

My eternal status is secure. What that implies to a Mormon is exactly what you stated. What it says to a Christian is that we maintain good works to bring glory to God.

Peter1000 · Aug 9, 2019

Phoebe Ann said:
I answered that in Post #22:

My eternal status is secure. What that implies to a Mormon is exactly what you stated. What it says to a Christian is that we maintain good works to bring glory to God.

Your eternal status may be secure, but it is only because you keep the commandments of God and are always mindful of doing good works. I'm sure you do, so that is a sign of your secure status.
Keep it up.

Rescued One · Aug 9, 2019

Peter1000 said:
Your eternal status may be secure, but it is only because you keep the commandments of God and are always mindful of doing good works. I'm sure you do, so that is a sign of your secure status.
Keep it up.

My eternal status is secure because God chose to make it so.

Your church says I'm going to hell because I reject Mormonism.

Peter1000 · Aug 9, 2019

Phoebe Ann said:
My eternal status is secure because God chose to make it so.

Your church says I'm going to hell because I reject Mormonism.

So God chose you and that is it. Well why all the bible then?

BTW you are not going to hell. It is because you believe in Jesus. But you will just not make it to the highest kingdom of heaven.

Rescued One · Aug 9, 2019

Peter1000 said:
So God chose you and that is it. Well why all the bible then?

BTW you are not going to hell.

“Also in the spirit prison are those who rejected the [Mormon]gospel after it was preached to them on earth or in the spirit prison. These spirits suffer in a condition known as hell. They have removed themselves from the mercy of Jesus Christ, who said, ‘Behold, I, God, have suffered these things for all, that they might not suffer if they would repent; but if they would not repent they must suffer even as I; which suffering caused myself, even God, the greatest of all, to tremble because of pain, and to bleed at every pore, and to suffer both body and spirit’ (D&C 19:16-18). After suffering in full for their sins, they will be allowed, through the Atonement of Jesus Christ, to inherit the lowest degree of glory, which is the telestial kingdom.”
Gospel Principles 2009, p. 292

Peter1000 said:
It is because you believe in Jesus. But you will just not make it to the highest kingdom of heaven.

No, I quoted your manual. You are misinformed. Don't you know that Mormonism teaches that before the resurrection many people go to a temporary hell?

Why did God inspire men to write the Bible? Don't you know? That is how we know God's will and true doctrine.

mmksparbud · Aug 9, 2019

Peter1000 said:
A gift giver never gives a gift until there is a reason to give it.

Well, that's baloney! A gift does not have to have a reason, if it is given out of love. God is love. He gives because He loves.

Rescued One · Aug 10, 2019

Joseph Smith wrote:
64 And it came to pass, when the Lord had spoken with Adam, our father, that Adam cried unto the Lord, and he was caught away by the Spirit of the Lord, and was carried down into the water, and was laid under the water, and was brought forth out of the water.

65 And thus he was baptized, and the Spirit of God descended upon him, and thus he was born of the Spirit, and became quickened in the inner man.

66 And he heard a voice out of heaven, saying: Thou art baptized with fire, and with the Holy Ghost. This is the record of the Father, and the Son, from henceforth and forever;

67 And thou art after the order of him who was without beginning of days or end of years, from all eternity to all eternity.

68 Behold, thou art one in me, a son of God; and thus may all become my sons. Amen. (Moses 6:64-68)

The church of the devil must have been given power over the Jews? They don't have that.

Peter1000 · Aug 10, 2019

Phoebe Ann said:
“Also in the spirit prison are those who rejected the [Mormon]gospel after it was preached to them on earth or in the spirit prison. These spirits suffer in a condition known as hell. They have removed themselves from the mercy of Jesus Christ, who said, ‘Behold, I, God, have suffered these things for all, that they might not suffer if they would repent; but if they would not repent they must suffer even as I; which suffering caused myself, even God, the greatest of all, to tremble because of pain, and to bleed at every pore, and to suffer both body and spirit’ (D&C 19:16-18). After suffering in full for their sins, they will be allowed, through the Atonement of Jesus Christ, to inherit the lowest degree of glory, which is the telestial kingdom.”
Gospel Principles 2009, p. 292

No, I quoted your manual. You are misinformed. Don't you know that Mormonism teaches that before the resurrection many people go to a temporary hell?

Why did God inspire men to write the Bible? Don't you know? That is how we know God's will and true doctrine.

Our doctrine is well known to us. In the spirit world all people will have a chance to learn the fullness of the gospel and to either accept it or reject it. Since you are already a believer, when you die you will go to the paradise part of the spirit world where you will continue to learn about Jesus Christ, only in a much more straight-forward expansive manner.

Those that go to the prison part of the spirit world are those that totally ignored the principles that Jesus taught and totally ignored the impulses from the Holy Spirit and did things destructive to their eternal lives. They too, however, will have the opportunity to learn of Jesus Christ and have the opportunity to come out of the prison if they faithfully repent and do those things that is the will of God. But understand one thing: before this prison is shut for good (as you say, it is temporary) all will bend their knees and bow their head and confess that Jesus is their savior. With that confession, even most of these will be saved in the lowest level of heaven. Some, who confess, with no change of heart, will go to the permanent hell, called outer darkness, where none of the Godhead will ever visit again.

There is one thing to learn about 1/100 of life of Christ and his principles from the bible, it is another thing to learn the other 99/100. The spirit world is the perfect place for that learning. You personally will love every minute of it. Look forward to it.

Peter1000 · Aug 10, 2019

mmksparbud said:
Well, that's baloney! A gift does not have to have a reason, if it is given out of love. God is love. He gives because He loves.

'Out of love' is a reason to give a gift. God hates some people because of their actions. He loves other people because of their actions and gives them gifts.

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