Did the Early Church Fathers teach "Calvinism?"

redleghunter

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I believe God has given us the ability to be new creations absolutely. He has given us the right and authority to become children of God.
Ok then we can go back to Romans 6 where you posit Paul is warning his audience, when in fact he is comparing the state of slaves (1) who are not in Christ aka a new creation and (2) showing that by using words such as "though you were" and "became" he was demonstrating to them that they are no longer slaves to sin. In chapter 5 Paul is teaching we are freed from the penalty of sin. In chapter 6 he is teaching we are free from the bondage of sin:

Romans 6: NASB


1What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin so that grace may increase? 2May it never be! How shall we who died to sin still live in it? 3Or do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus have been baptized into His death? 4Therefore we have been buried with Him through baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we too might walk in newness of life. 5For if we have become united with Him in the likeness of His death, certainly we shall also be in the likeness of His resurrection, 6knowing this, that our old self was crucified with Him, in order that our body of sin might be done away with, so that we would no longer be slaves to sin; 7for he who has died is freed from sin.

8Now if we have died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with Him, 9knowing that Christ, having been raised from the dead, is never to die again; death no longer is master over Him. 10For the death that He died, He died to sin once for all; but the life that He lives, He lives to God. 11Even so consider yourselves to be dead to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus.

12Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its lusts, 13and do not go on presenting the members of your body to sin as instruments of unrighteousness; but present yourselves to God as those alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness to God. 14For sin shall not be master over you, for you are not under law but under grace.

15What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? May it never be! 16Do you not know that when you present yourselves to someone as slaves for obedience, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin resulting in death, or of obedience resulting in righteousness? 17But thanks be to God that though you were slaves of sin, you became obedient from the heart to that form of teaching to which you were committed, 18and having been freed from sin, you became slaves of righteousness. 19I am speaking in human terms because of the weakness of your flesh. For just as you presented your members as slaves to impurity and to lawlessness, resulting in further lawlessness, so now present your members as slaves to righteousness, resulting in sanctification.

20For when you were slaves of sin, you were free in regard to righteousness. 21Therefore what benefit were you then deriving from the things of which you are now ashamed? For the outcome of those things is death. 22But now having been freed from sin and enslaved to God, you derive your benefit, resulting in sanctification, and the outcome, eternal life. 23For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
That's why I ask where you see the sovereign act of God in regeneration occurring in your theology. Because it is quite clear Paul is addressing those of a new nature, born again.
 
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redleghunter

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God does not unchangeable ordain man's disobedience.
Man's disobedience is his/her 'natural' fallen state. So not seeing what your point is or what teaching you are referring to. Perhaps quote what I posted and we can go from there?

Second causes? Irrelevant.
Obviously not.

It doesn't matter how many bricks I line up to drop one on your head if I start the bricks moving.
Who claims God lines up bricks? The very nature of fallen man is disobedience see Romans 3.

Will of the creatures? Irrelevant, because Calvinists claim God chooses our strongest desire for us, so it's the same as with the bricks.
You will have to explain this one. God chooses for us our strongest desire?
 
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redleghunter

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Sovereignty is not total control. A king is sovereign over his people, but he does not cause them to obey or disobey. You really need to make up your mind, because first, you say the word doesn't' mean control and then you say it does.
Where in what I posted indicated 'total control.' Fallen human beings have choice to act according to their nature. The whole reason God's plan of redemption was before the foundations of the earth.

It's exactly like I said, you try to hold two opposites in tension.
You are creating the tensions. I showed you twice there is no tension. One either embraces a Sovereign God or a deistic deity.

Sin is Satan's handiwork, not Gods. There is a real battle going on, not God fighting against himself, or talking out of both sides of his mouth, like some trickster diety.
I think the whole 'trickster deity' is your sunk impression. Usually people who come to these conclusions refuse to see mankind as fallen and that fallen nature as inherited. Is it your belief we have the same choices as Adam and Eve?
 
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renniks

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Man's disobedience is his/her 'natural' fallen state. So not seeing what your point is or what teaching you are referring to. Perhaps quote what I posted and we can go from there?


Obviously not.


Who claims God lines up bricks? The very nature of fallen man is disobedience see Romans 3.


You will have to explain this one. God chooses for us our strongest desire?
You posted from the Westminster confession that God ordains our sin. I have quoted from it twice and you still don't seem to get it? Secondary causes would still all have to be caused by God's decree in your system. As far as the nature of man being disobedience, that is an overstatement, but in your system God did indeed line up all the bricks deliberately, in order to render man's rebellion certain. As far as the strongest desire thing, hey, that's what you people keep telling me, that we always choose according to our strongest desire and God's unchanging decree chooses what that will be. So free will? Nope, not really, just the illusion of free will.
 
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renniks

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Where in what I posted indicated 'total control.' Fallen human beings have choice to act according to their nature. The whole reason God's plan of redemption was before the foundations of the earth.


You are creating the tensions. I showed you twice there is no tension. One either embraces a Sovereign God or a deistic deity.


I think the whole 'trickster deity' is your sunk impression. Usually people who come to these conclusions refuse to see mankind as fallen and that fallen nature as inherited. Is it your belief we have the same choices as Adam and Eve?
"The Sovereignty of God is the biblical teaching that all things are under God's rule and control, and that nothing happens without His direction or permission. God works not just some things but all things according to the counsel of His own will. His purposes are all-inclusive and never thwarted."

This is what you posted. If all things means, well, all things, then that equals total control, does it not? God is never thwarted? Then why in the world does he keep getting angry about people doing what he just told them not to do?

I'm still looking for the verses where God says: "Yes, I changeably ordained that you would commit adultery, David, but I'm still going to punish you for it." or: " I know I cause you to throw your children in the fire before idols, but it never entered my mind." Nope, it aint in there. God is not two faced.

The choice we have is to submit to God or not. To love him or only love ourselves. Yes, we have a tenancy toward sin, but not an obligation.
 
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redleghunter

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You posted from the Westminster confession that God ordains our sin.
No the WCF says no such thing but actually the opposite:

God from all eternity did, by the most wise and holy counsel of his own will, freely and unchangeably ordain whatsoever comes to pass;a yet so as thereby neither is God the author of sin,b nor is violence offered to the will of the creatures, nor is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established.c

a. Rom 9:15, 18; 11:33; Eph 1:11; Heb 6:17. • b. James 1:13, 17; 1 John 1:5. • c. Prov 16:33; Mat 17:12; John 19:11; Acts 2:23; 4:27-28.​

This means God is not the author of sin and does not make us sin. If you went to the Scripture foot notes this would become abundantly clear.
 
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BABerean2

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Show me where I quote Augustine.

God is Sovereign

Exo 15:18 The LORD will reign forever and ever.”

1Ch 29:11-12 Yours, O LORD, is the greatness and the power and the glory and the victory and the majesty, for all that is in the heavens and in the earth is yours. Yours is the kingdom, O LORD, and you are exalted as head above all. Both riches and honor come from you, and you rule over all. In your hand are power and might, and in your hand it is to make great and to give strength to all.

2Ch 20:6 and said, “O LORD, God of our fathers, are you not God in heaven? You rule over all the kingdoms of the nations. In your hand are power and might, so that none is able to withstand you.

Psa 22:28 For kingship belongs to the LORD, and he rules over the nations.
He exercises that sovereignty in actively ordaining everything

Deu 32:39 “’See now that I, even I, am he, and there is no god beside me; I kill and I make alive; I wound and I heal; and there is none that can deliver out of my hand.

1Sa 2:6-8 The LORD kills and brings to life; he brings down to Sheol and raises up. The LORD makes poor and makes rich; he brings low and he exalts. He raises up the poor from the dust; he lifts the needy from the ash heap to make them sit with princes and inherit a seat of honor. For the pillars of the earth are the LORD’s, and on them he has set the world.

Job 9:12 Behold, he snatches away; who can turn him back? Who will say to him, ‘What are you doing?’

Job 12:6-10 The tents of robbers are at peace, and those who provoke God are secure, who bring their god in their hand. “But ask the beasts, and they will teach you; the birds of the heavens, and they will tell you; or the bushes of the earth, and they will teach you; and the fish of the sea will declare to you. Who among all these does not know that the hand of the LORD has done this? In his hand is the life of every living thing and the breath of all mankind.

Psa 33:11 The counsel of the LORD stands forever, the plans of his heart to all generations.

Psa 115:3 Our God is in the heavens; he does all that he pleases.

Psa 135:6 Whatever the LORD pleases, he does, in heaven and on earth, in the seas and all deeps.

Isa 14:24 The LORD of hosts has sworn: “As I have planned, so shall it be, and as I have purposed, so shall it stand,

Isa 45:7 I form light and create darkness, I make well-being and create calamity, I am the LORD, who does all these things.

Eph 1:11 In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will,

Pro 16:33 The lot is cast into the lap, but its every decision is from the LORD.

1Ki 22:20 and the LORD said, ‘Who will entice Ahab, that he may go up and fall at Ramoth-gilead?’...1Ki 22:34 But a certain man drew his bow at random and struck the king of Israel between the scale armor and the breastplate. Therefore he said to the driver of his chariot, “Turn around and carry me out of the battle, for I am wounded.” ...1Ki 22:37 So the king died, and was brought to Samaria. And they buried the king in Samaria.

Isa 44:28 who says of Cyrus, ‘He is my shepherd, and he shall fulfill all my purpose’; saying of Jerusalem, ‘She shall be built,’ and of the temple, ‘Your foundation shall be laid.’”

Amo 3:6 Is a trumpet blown in a city, and the people are not afraid? Does disaster come to a city, unless the LORD has done it?

Act 2:22-23 “Men of Israel, hear these words: Jesus of Nazareth, a man attested to you by God with mighty works and wonders and signs that God did through him in your midst, as you yourselves know— this Jesus, delivered up according to the definite plan and foreknowledge of God, you crucified and killed by the hands of lawless men.

Act 4:27-28 for truly in this city there were gathered together against your holy servant Jesus, whom you anointed, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, along with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel, to do whatever your hand and your plan had predestined to take place.

Joh 15:16 You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit and that your fruit should abide, so that whatever you ask the Father in my name, he may give it to you.

Eph 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.

Phi 2:12-13 Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, so now, not only as in my presence but much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling, for it is God who works in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure.

Psa 104:5-10 He set the earth on its foundations, so that it should never be moved. You covered it with the deep as with a garment; the waters stood above the mountains. At your rebuke they fled; at the sound of your thunder they took to flight. The mountains rose, the valleys sank down to the place that you appointed for them. You set a boundary that they may not pass, so that they might not again cover the earth. You make springs gush forth in the valleys; they flow between the hills;

Psa 104:13-14 From your lofty abode you water the mountains; the earth is satisfied with the fruit of your work. You cause the grass to grow for the livestock and plants for man to cultivate, that he may bring forth food from the earth

Psa 104:19-20 He made the moon to mark the seasons; the sun knows its time for setting. You make darkness, and it is night, when all the beasts of the forest creep about.

Mar 4:39 And he awoke and rebuked the wind and said to the sea, “Peace! Be still!” And the wind ceased, and there was a great calm.

Job 33:12-13 “Behold, in this you are not right. I will answer you, for God is greater than man. Why do you contend against him, saying, ‘He will answer none of man’s words’?

Isa 29:16 You turn things upside down! Shall the potter be regarded as the clay, that the thing made should say of its maker, “He did not make me”; or the thing formed say of him who formed it, “He has no understanding”?

Isa 45:9-10 “Woe to him who strives with him who formed him, a pot among earthen pots! Does the clay say to him who forms it, ‘What are you making?’ or ‘Your work has no handles’? Woe to him who says to a father, ‘What are you begetting?’ or to a woman, ‘With what are you in labor?’”

Mat 20:1-16 “For the kingdom of heaven is like a master of a house who went out early in the morning to hire laborers for his vineyard. After agreeing with the laborers for a denarius a day, he sent them into his vineyard. And going out about the third hour he saw others standing idle in the marketplace, and to them he said, ‘You go into the vineyard too, and whatever is right I will give you.’ So they went. Going out again about the sixth hour and the ninth hour, he did the same. And about the eleventh hour he went out and found others standing. And he said to them, ‘Why do you stand here idle all day?’ They said to him, ‘Because no one has hired us.’ He said to them, ‘You go into the vineyard too.’ And when evening came, the owner of the vineyard said to his foreman, ‘Call the laborers and pay them their wages, beginning with the last, up to the first.’ And when those hired about the eleventh hour came, each of them received a denarius. Now when those hired first came, they thought they would receive more, but each of them also received a denarius. And on receiving it they grumbled at the master of the house, saying, ‘These last worked only one hour, and you have made them equal to us who have borne the burden of the day and the scorching heat.’ But he replied to one of them, ‘Friend, I am doing you no wrong. Did you not agree with me for a denarius? Take what belongs to you and go. I choose to give to this last worker as I give to you. Am I not allowed to do what I choose with what belongs to me? Or do you begrudge my generosity?’ So the last will be first, and the first last.”

Rom 9:19-24 You will say to me then, “Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?” But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, “Why have you made me like this?” Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honored use and another for dishonorable use? What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory—even us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles?

Exo 6:7 I will take you to be my people, and I will be your God, and you shall know that I am the LORD your God, who has brought you out from under the burdens of the Egyptians.

Deu 7:6-8 “For you are a people holy to the LORD your God. The LORD your God has chosen you to be a people for his treasured possession, out of all the peoples who are on the face of the earth. It was not because you were more in number than any other people that the LORD set his love on you and chose you, for you were the fewest of all peoples, but it is because the LORD loves you and is keeping the oath that he swore to your fathers, that the LORD has brought you out with a mighty hand and redeemed you from the house of slavery, from the hand of Pharaoh king of Egypt.

Deu 10:14-15 Behold, to the LORD your God belong heaven and the heaven of heavens, the earth with all that is in it. Yet the LORD set his heart in love on your fathers and chose their offspring after them, you above all peoples, as you are this day.

Psa 33:12 Blessed is the nation whose God is the LORD, the people whom he has chosen as his heritage!

Isa 43:20-21 The wild beasts will honor me, the jackals and the ostriches, for I give water in the wilderness, rivers in the desert, to give drink to my chosen people, the people whom I formed for myself that they might declare my praise.

Psa 65:4 Blessed is the one you choose and bring near, to dwell in your courts! We shall be satisfied with the goodness of your house, the holiness of your temple!

Joh 6:37 All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out.

Joh 15:16 You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit and that your fruit should abide, so that whatever you ask the Father in my name, he may give it to you.

Act 13:48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord, and as many as were appointed to eternal life believed.

Rom 8:28-30 And we know that for those who love God all things work together for good, for those who are called according to his purpose. For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.

Rom 9:10-24 And not only so, but also when Rebecca had conceived children by one man, our forefather Isaac, though they were not yet born and had done nothing either good or bad—in order that God’s purpose of election might continue, not because of works but because of his call—she was told, “The older will serve the younger.” As it is written, “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.” What shall we say then? Is there injustice on God’s part? By no means! For he says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy. For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.” So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills. You will say to me then, “Why does he still find fault? For who can resist his will?” But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, “Why have you made me like this?” Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honored use and another for dishonorable use? What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction, in order to make known the riches of his glory for vessels of mercy, which he has prepared before hand for glory—even us whom he has called, not from the Jews only but also from the Gentiles?
Rom 11:5-7 So too at the present time there is a remnant, chosen by grace. But if it is by grace, it is no longer on the basis of works; otherwise grace would no longer be grace. What then? Israel failed to
obtain what it was seeking. The elect obtained it, but the rest were hardened,

Eph 1:3-6 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us in Christ with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places, even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love he predestined us for adoption through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will, to the praise of his glorious grace, with which he has blessed us in the Beloved.

Eph 1:11-12 In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will, so that we who were the first to hope in Christ might be to the praise of his glory.

1Th 1:4 For we know, brothers loved by God, that he has chosen you,

1Th 5:9 For God has not destined us for wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ,

2Th 2:13-14 But we ought always to give thanks to God for you, brothers beloved by the Lord, because God chose you as the firstfruits to be saved, through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth. To this he called you through our gospel, so that you may obtain the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ.

Exo 4:21 And the LORD said to Moses, “When you go back to Egypt, see that you do before Pharaoh all the miracles that I have put in your power. But I will harden his heart, so that he will not let the people go.

Rom 9:13 As it is written, “Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated.”

Rom 9:17-18 For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, “For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.” So then he has mercy on whomever he wills, and he hardens whomever he wills.

Rom 9:21-22 Has the potter no right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for honored use and another for dishonorable use? What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction,

1Pe 2:8 and “A stone of stumbling, and a rock of offense.” They stumble because they disobey the word, as they were destined to do.

More upon request.

All man-made doctrines are revealed not by the scripture quoted by its proponents, but rather by the scripture they must ignore to make it work.
Calvinism is an excellent example of this fact, as you have just demonstrated above.

Why did you leave out the scripture found below?


Gen 25:23 And the LORD said unto her, Two nations are in thy womb, and two manner of people shall be separated from thy bowels; and the one people shall be stronger than the other people; and the elder shall serve the younger.

Joh_12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me

Act 3:19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;

Act 17:30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:

Eph 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

.
 
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redleghunter

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This is what you posted. If all things means, well, all things, then that equals total control, does it not? God is never thwarted? Then why in the world does he keep getting angry about people doing what he just told them not to do?
Well you keep lumping this in and don't know why. I already provided to you what the Bible teaches on the Sovereignty of God and also that God is not the author of sin and does not cause us to sin. You seem to see this as a contradiction or perhaps a paradox. But no contradiction or paradox exists given that since the fall of mankind we are all sons of wrath and disobedience. A pretty sad state for humanity and the whole reason Jesus came be our substitute and savior.

I'm still looking for the verses where God says: "Yes, I changeably ordained that you would commit adultery, David, but I'm still going to punish you for it." or: " I know I cause you to throw your children in the fire before idols, but it never entered my mind." Nope, it aint in there. God is not two faced.
This is your created theological monster, not mine, not Reformed.

The choice we have is to submit to God or not. To love him or only love ourselves. Yes, we have a tenancy toward sin, but not an obligation.
A tendency towards sin? I think we have found the issue. Without the Blood of Christ we are enemies of God.

Romans 5: NASB

1Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, 2through whom also we have obtained our introduction by faith into this grace in which we stand; and we exult in hope of the glory of God. 3And not only this, but we also exult in our tribulations, knowing that tribulation brings about perseverance; 4and perseverance, proven character; and proven character, hope; 5and hope does not disappoint, because the love of God has been poured out within our hearts through the Holy Spirit who was given to us.

6For while we were still helpless, at the right time Christ died for the ungodly. 7For one will hardly die for a righteous man; though perhaps for the good man someone would dare even to die. 8But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. 9Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from the wrath of God through Him. 10For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life. 11And not only this, but we also exult in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received the reconciliation.

12Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned13for until the Law sin was in the world, but sin is not imputed when there is no law. 14Nevertheless death reigned from Adam until Moses, even over those who had not sinned in the likeness of the offense of Adam, who is a type of Him who was to come.

15But the free gift is not like the transgression. For if by the transgression of the one the many died, much more did the grace of God and the gift by the grace of the one Man, Jesus Christ, abound to the many. 16The gift is not like that which came through the one who sinned; for on the one hand the judgment arose from one transgression resulting in condemnation, but on the other hand the free gift arose from many transgressions resulting in justification. 17For if by the transgression of the one, death reigned through the one, much more those who receive the abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ.

18So then as through one transgression there resulted condemnation to all men, even so through one act of righteousness there resulted justification of life to all men. 19For as through the one man’s disobedience the many were made sinners, even so through the obedience of the One the many will be made righteous. 20The Law came in so that the transgression would increase; but where sin increased, grace abounded all the more, 21so that, as sin reigned in death, even so grace would reign through righteousness to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
 
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BABerean2

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No the WCF says no such thing but actually the opposite:

The Westminster Confession claims the ten commandments were given to Adam in the garden, even though Adam could not have committed adultery, and he had no mother to honor.

It has also invented a term known as "the moral law", which is not found in the Bible, in order to ignore Galatians 3:16-29, and Galatians 4:24-31.


In Galatians 3 Paul reveals the law was "added" 430 years "after" the promise made to Abraham "until" the seed (Christ) could come to whom the promise was made.


In Galatians 4 Paul compels the Galatian believers to "cast out" the Sinai Covenant of "bondage".


It also claims we are under the 4th commandment, even though Paul says otherwise in Colossians 2:16-17.


The New Covenant: Bob George


.



 
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redleghunter

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All man-made doctrines are revealed not by the scripture quoted by its proponents, but rather by the scripture they must ignore to make it work.
Calvinism is an excellent example of this fact, as you have just demonstrated above.
Ok, so you now must show me passages where God is not Sovereign. Because what you posted had nothing to do with the Sovereignty of God.
 
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redleghunter

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The Westminster Confession claims the ten commandments were given to Adam in the garden, even though Adam could not have committed adultery, and he had not mother to honor.

It has also invented a term known as "the moral law", which is not found in the Bible, in order to ignore Galatians 3:16-29, and Galatians 4:24-31.


In Galatians 3 Paul reveals the law was "added" 430 years "after" the promise made to Abraham "until" the seed (Christ) could come to whom the promise was made.


In Galatians 4 Paul compels the Galatian believers to "cast out" the Sinai Covenant of "bondage".


It also claims we are under the 4th commandment, even though Paul says otherwise in Colossians 2:16-17.



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I'm sure you can quote the various portions of the WCF.
 
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BABerean2

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Because what you posted had nothing to do with the Sovereignty of God.

Every word in the Bible is about the Sovereignty of God, even those that kill Calvinism...

Try Matthew 1:1, and John 1:1, and John 1:14, and Luke 24:25-27, for starters.


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redleghunter

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Gen 25:23 And the LORD said unto her, Two nations are in thy womb, and two manner of people shall be separated from thy bowels; and the one people shall be stronger than the other people; and the elder shall serve the younger.

Joh_12:32 And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me

Act 3:19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;

Act 17:30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:

Eph 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
I'm still not sure why you keep posting these verses. Is there something above which denies the sovereignty of God in salvation? In events? What exactly is the purpose of those verses. It seems as if they are a response to something else, like to some who say we don't need to repent.

Oh, yes I already responded to them:

Did the Early Church Fathers teach "Calvinism?"
 
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redleghunter

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Every word in the Bible is about the Sovereignty of God, even those that kill Calvinism...

Try Matthew 1:1, and John 1:1, and John 1:14, and Luke 24:25-27, for starters.


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Dude what are you driving at? How do any of those verses address the doctrines of Grace?
 
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redleghunter

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God gave to Adam a law, as a covenant of works, by which he bound him and all his posterity to personal, entire, exact, and perpetual obedience; promised life upon the fulfilling, and threatened death upon the breach of it; and endued him with power and ability to keep it.a

a. Gen 1:26-27 with 2:17; Job 28:28; Eccl 7:29; Rom 2:14-15; 5:12, 19; 10:5; Gal 3:10, 12.

Not seeing the issue here.
 
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BABerean2

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I'm still not sure why you keep posting these verses. Is there something above which denies the sovereignty of God in salvation? In events? What exactly is the purpose of those verses. It seems as if they are a response to something else, like to some who say we don't need to repent.

Oh, yes I already responded to them:

Did the Early Church Fathers teach "Calvinism?"

Is the reference to Jacob and Esau in Romans 9 about the salvation of two individuals as Calvinists claim, or is it about the election of a nation as revealed by Genesis 25:23?

Why would Peter command men to repent and be converted in Acts 3:19, if it is something God must do for them?

You claim men cannot repent, until they are regenerated first by God.
Why would God command all men to repent in Acts 17:30, if God keeps some of them from repenting?
Can God repent for me, even though He has no sin?

What is the order of salvation in Ephesians 1:13?
Are people regenerated by the Holy Spirit before they hear, and believe?


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