Matt. 25:46 Everlasting Punishment

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Hillsage

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Dear Hillsage: My old bones are in need of a quality bone fixer upper. It is always a joy seeing you and that gem MKGal!
As one called of God to do that very thing, I need but one thing...your bones before me. :p And I agree with your joy, the spirit of MK imparts a gentle aroma of spirit this ‘wounded warrior’ also is lifted by.
I am hoping to retire from posting. Retirement will lack quality with disarranged old bones.
Brother your ears do listen to the words of your mouth... be they declaring “life/death” “blessing or curse”. Indeed my declaration to “seek immortality” received a boost at my annual physical yesterday...when I was pronounced “boring”. Because “your temp is 97.7, your BP is 128/78 and pulse 58. You take no Rx drugs at all. And for being just over 70 you look 60 at the most.”

So brother I again am making the declaration for my eyes to keep looking for the ‘uppertaker’ and not the perishing that accompanies the ‘undertaker’.

Perfection is yet attainable....I believe....Lord help my unbelief. ;)
 
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You're entitled to your opinion but I disagree. We either die to ourselves, take up our crosses and follow Him in this life OR die to ourselves, take up our crosses and follow Him in the LOF. The choice is ours; I prefer the former.
Read the scriptures for yourself carefully and don't simply accept what you were taught. Phil 2:10
"so that at the name of Jesus EVERY KNEE WILL BOW, of those who are in heaven and on earth and under the earth," NASB
Hades is under the earth. All of those souls in Hades will bow at the name of Jesus. Unsaved sinners are never said to bow their knee at the name of Jesus.

Not sure how this helps you, either way.
The wicked are not going to eventually enter God's Kingdom.
Sorry, it's just not going to happen.
They will be carcases that will be viewed upon by the saints as said in Isaiah.
 
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Deborah D

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In preparation for this foundational verse of everlasting punishment we will consider a couple of questions.

Questions

1. Would not endless punishment be the return of evil for evil?

2. As we are commanded "to overcome evil with good," may we not safely infer that God will do the same? (Rom. 12:21)

3. Would the infliction of endless punishment be overcoming evil with good?

4. If God hates the sinner, does the sinner do wrong in hating Him?

5. Is God a changeable being? (James 1:17)

6. If God loves His enemies now, will he not always love them?

7. Is it just for God to be "kind to the evil and unthankful," in their present life? (Luke 6:35)

8. Would it be unjust for God to be kind to all men in a future state?

9. If all men justly deserve endless punishment, will not those who are saved, be saved unjustly?

10. If God "will by no means clear the guilty," by what means can just punishment be evaded? (Ex. 34:7)

11. As no man can measure endless punishment to his neighbor, will endless punishment be measured to him? (Luke 4:38)

12. Would it be merciful in God to inflict endless punishment? -- that is, merciful to the sufferer?

13. Can that be just which is not merciful?

14. Do not cruelty and injustice go hand in hand?

15. Can that be merciful which is not just?

-A. C. Thomas-

I have been looking through some of the CF threads promoting Universalism. One of the things I've noticed is that many pro-Universalist posts quote sources other than the Bible. I'm not against this practice, per se, but I was struck by how many times other sources were quoted.

I see that the O.P. in this thread is based on the thinking of A. C. Thomas. Here is some info I found about him on a pro-Universalism Web site.

In Marietta [Pennsylvania], Thomas began a lifelong friendship with Aaron B. Grosh, a teacher (and later Universalist minister and publisher) four years older than himself. The two young men discussed religion and together studied the Bible and the works of Universalist theologians Hosea Ballou and Walter Balfour. Grosh, already a Universalist, soon convinced Thomas of the truth of Universalism. Because the local Presbyterian minister campaigned against Universalists, the numbers of students in Thomas's school decreased until he was compelled to abandon it [emphasis in bold added].
Source:Abel C. Thomas
This seems to be one of the main modus operandi of Universalists, i.e. convincing others through human logic that no one will be punished eternally, even those people who refuse God's provision for salvation during this life.

If Universalists are correct, and I don't believe that they are (solely based on what God says in the Bible), then there's nothing to worry about. Eat, drink and be merry! It really doesn't matter in the long run what a person believes or does during his/her life on earth. Universalists teach that all will end up in heaven, eventually.

But if Universalists are wrong, how many people will go to eternal destruction because they believed the nice-sounding, but unscriptural, teaching of Universalism?
 
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Oldmantook

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Not sure how this helps you, either way.
The wicked are not going to eventually enter God's Kingdom.
Sorry, it's just not going to happen.
They will be carcases that will be viewed upon by the saints as said in Isaiah.
You neglected to deal with Phil 2:10 all scripture must be reconciled with your view; not just those that happen to suit your fancy.
 
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dqhall

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I have been looking through some of the CF threads promoting Universalism. One of the things I've noticed is that many pro-Universalist posts quote sources other than the Bible. I'm not against this practice, per se, but I was struck by how many times other sources were quoted.

I see that the O.P. in this thread is based on the thinking of A. C. Thomas. Here is some info I found about him on a pro-Universalism Web site.

In Marietta [Pennsylvania], Thomas began a lifelong friendship with Aaron B. Grosh, a teacher (and later Universalist minister and publisher) four years older than himself. The two young men discussed religion and together studied the Bible and the works of Universalist theologians Hosea Ballou and Walter Balfour. Grosh, already a Universalist, soon convinced Thomas of the truth of Universalism. Because the local Presbyterian minister campaigned against Universalists, the numbers of students in Thomas's school decreased until he was compelled to abandon it [emphasis in bold added].
Source:Abel C. Thomas
This seems to be one of the main modus operandi of Universalists, i.e. convincing others through human logic that no one will be punished eternally, even those people who refuse God's provision for salvation during this life.

If Universalists are correct, and I don't believe that they are (solely based on what God says in the Bible), then there's nothing to worry about. Eat, drink and be merry! It really doesn't matter in the long run what a person believes or does during his/her life on earth. Universalists teach that all will end up in heaven, eventually.

But if Universalists are wrong, how many people will go to eternal destruction because they believed the nice-sounding, but unscriptural, teaching of Universalism?
Physical bodies will cease to exist.
Matthew 24:35 (KJV) Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.

Those worthy of the resurrection to eternal life will be like the angels in heaven. They will not marry. (Matthew 22:30)

Eternal death and darkness is punishment enough. God did not create people for the purpose of eternal sadistic torture.
 
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You neglected to deal with Phil 2:10 all scripture must be reconciled with your view; not just those that happen to suit your fancy.

Not sure what Philippians 2:10 has got to do with Universalism. Whether everyone bows and or does not bow does not support the idea of either Universalism, Conditional Immortality, or Eternal Conscious Torment. Philippians 2:10 sounds like a separate event to me at the Judgment. Every knee will bow at the Judgment. What happens after the Judgment is another matter.
 
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Deborah D

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In addition to Matthew 25:46 (from the O.P.) there are some other verses that are problematic to the Universalist position. For instance, Jesus said, "whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come." Jesus also said, "But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness."

Matthew 25:46
And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

Matthew 12:31
Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men. And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.

Matthew 7:21-23
Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Mark 3:28-29
Verily I say unto you, All sins shall be forgiven unto the sons of men, and blasphemies wherewith soever they shall blaspheme: But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation:

Luke 12:10
And whosoever shall speak a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but unto him that blasphemeth against the Holy Ghost it shall not be forgiven.
 
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In addition to Matthew 25:46 (from the O.P.) there are some other verses that are problematic to the Universalist position. For instance, Jesus said, "whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come." Jesus also said, "But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness."

Matthew 25:46
And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

Matthew 12:31
Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men. And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.

Matthew 7:21-23
Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Mark 3:28-29
Verily I say unto you, All sins shall be forgiven unto the sons of men, and blasphemies wherewith soever they shall blaspheme: But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation:

Luke 12:10
And whosoever shall speak a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but unto him that blasphemeth against the Holy Ghost it shall not be forgiven.

I agree. In addition, there are those whose names were not written in the book of life since the foundation of the world (See Revelation 13:8, and Revelation 17:8). This doesn't make sense in light of Universalism. Everyone should have their names in the book of life if they are going to eventually make it in the end.
 
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Also, the Judgment is kind of pointless if everyone is going to make it into God's Kingdom in the end. The whole point of the Judgment is to judge God's people and reward them, and to punish the wicked. It makes no sense if the wicked will later be rewarded with entering God's Kingdom. What if some of the wicked don't want to go to God's Kingdom? Will God lobotomize them?

What about the antichrist and the false prophet? Will they be in God's Kingdom? Also, if you knew everyone will make it into God's Kingdom, would that not influence you in your evangelism efforts? Would you not be more inclined to just not do anything because everyone is going to make it in the end?
 
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joshua 1 9

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1. Would not endless punishment be the return of evil for evil?
"Return" has to do with sowing and reaping. Whatever seed we sow is the seed that is going to grow. God has impressed upon me many times that He is a God of absolute and perfect Justice. This is why Jesus went to calvery to pay the price for our sins. Everyone is going to receive exactly what their actions deserve. In Science they call this cause and effect. For every action there is an equal and opposite reaction. This is why we are called to repent and to live our life free from sin.

Eternal has to do with time and with ages. We are given time, our life time. Then we are held accountable for what we did with the time we were given. We will receive our reward or we will suffer loss. We will lose what we could have had if we had made a productive use of our time.
 
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According to the context of St. Matthew 25 and ONLY the context, please fill in the empty lines.

The foundation for “everlasting punishment” Matt. 25=

1.____________________________________?

2.____________________________________?

3.____________________________________?

4.____________________________________?

5.____________________________________?

"And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal."

1. For I was an hungred
2. I was thirsty
3. I was a stranger
4. Naked
5. Sick

It seems to boil down to this:
"
And the King shall answer and say unto them, 'Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.'
"
(Mt 25:40)

In this context, it seems to directly follow from Jesus's ministry in chapter 23 (if I'm not mistaken what He is saying in 25 is a continuation of 23), where He speaks of the greatest commandment.

"
37 Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. 38 This is the first and great commandment. 39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. 40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.
"
(Mt 22:37–40).

Not abiding by the greatest commandment (of which the whole of the law rests on), not loving our neighbor, (i.e. could be anyne, as perhaps a stranger in need we cross paths with perhaps only once (like in the Parable of the Good Samaritan)), seems to be the crux. It seems almost impossible to break the second commandment without breaking the first, we are called to love even our enemies (what power do they have over how much of Christ's Love I have in my heart - so I should guard it against the seeds of hatred instead of letting that be an excuse for me to hate more and be a part of the problem instead of the solution).

"
7 Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and every one that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God. 8 He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love.
"
(1 Jn 4:7–8).

Edit: Here in this context we may see clearly that small acts of kindness for others means a great deal. Perhaps storing up the oil refers to our works of faith that have built our character.

__________________________________________________

So, not loving God and/or one's brethren, everlasting punishment may be the consequence. I would like to refer to some commentary on the subject of everlasting punishment:

"
(3) The last judgement.—The NT doctrine of the last judgment leads to the same conclusion. Two things seem plainly taught about this judgment: the first, that it proceeds on the matter of the present life—“the things done in the body” (Mt 25:31–46; 2 Cor 5:10; Rev 20:12); and the second, that it is decisive in its issues. Not a single suggestion is given of a reversal of its decisions in any future age. Such silence is inexplicable if the Scriptures meant to teach what the opponents of this doctrine so confidently maintain.

...


2. Nature of Punishment
... The supreme penalty of sin is unquestionably the loss of God’s life and love—the being sinful. Environment, indeed, may be expected to correspond with character, but the hell is one the sinner essentially makes for himself, and, like the kingdom of God, is within.

...

4. Gradation of Punishment

The fullest weight must further be given to what the Scripture so expressly says of gradation of punishment, even of the unsaved. It is not the case that the lot of all who fail of the eternal life in Christ is all of one grade. ... There is a vast area here for the Divine administration on which no light at all is afforded us.

"

Orr, J. (1915). Punishment, Everlasting. In J. Orr, J. L. Nuelsen, E. Y. Mullins, & M. O. Evans (Eds.), The International Standard Bible Encyclopaedia (Vol. 1–5, pp. 2502–2504). Chicago: The Howard-Severance Company.

Everlasting punishment seems to entail separation from God somehow. After the judgment, there are no second chances. There seems to be degrees of punishment for the doomed (the punishment will fit the crime). To be in rebellion against God, nothing in His creation being of comfort - all being as vanity of vanities striving for the wind - with of course not even God to turn to, if destruction would come it would ensue as an act of mercy. As much as I sympathize for any soul that goes to hell, seeming like the most hard to accept truth out there that some end up utterly doomed to everlasting punishment, all there is to do is trust the scriptures and heed the stern warnings, seeking to enter into life via the narrow way. Even the damned will be kneeling to God before His Justice:

"
9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name: 10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; 11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
"

The Holy Bible: King James Version. (2009). (Electronic Edition of the 1900 Authorized Version., Php 2:9–11). Bellingham, WA: Logos Research Systems, Inc.
 
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joshua 1 9

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Everyone should have their names in the book of life
There are scriptures esp in Exodus where people are blotted out of the book of life. I remember asking a pastor once if God blots us out and writes us back in again only to blot us out. He would not talk to me again after that. It would make sense that there is a point where people are bolted out but just when is that? They talk about a how children are saved until they reach an age where they become accountable and then we can lose our salvation.
 
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yeshuaslavejeff

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There are scriptures esp in Exodus where people are blotted out of the book of life. I remember asking a pastor once if God blots us out and writes us back in again only to blot us out. He would not talk to me again after that. It would make sense that there is a point where people are bolted out but just when is that? They talk about a how children are saved until they reach an age where they become accountable and then we can lose our salvation.
"They talk about" "children are saved",
but they are not.
False premise/ assumption.

"when is that?"
When it is done.
 
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joshua 1 9

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Only a few escape.
We know many are called and few are chosen, but this has to do with our priesthood and being found worthy to serve God. The Bible talks about how a remnant will repopulate the earth. We have seen this in Israel where God will preserve a remnant onto Himself. This may not apply toward salvation though. We are told a third will be saved: Zech 13:9 "And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried: they shall call on my name, and I will hear them: I will say, It is my people: and they shall say, The LORD is my God." Jesus talk about few will be saved and many will perish. Few could mean 1/3 and many could mean 2/3. Some people believe a third of the angles followed the dragon in his rebellion and they were thrown to the earth. Rev 12:4 "His tail swept a third of the stars from the sky, tossing them to the earth."
 
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yeshuaslavejeff

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We know many are called and few are chosen, but this has to do with our priesthood and being found worthy to serve God. The Bible talks about how a remnant will repopulate the earth. We have seen this in Israel where God will preserve a remnant onto Himself. This may not apply toward salvation though. We are told a third will be saved: Zech 13:9 "And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried: they shall call on my name, and I will hear them: I will say, It is my people: and they shall say, The LORD is my God." Jesus talk about few will be saved and many will perish. Few could mean 1/3 and many could mean 2/3. Some people believe a third of the angles followed the dragon in his rebellion and they were thrown to the earth. Rev 12:4 "His tail swept a third of the stars from the sky, tossing them to the earth."
I think it is closer to truth if 1/3 is 1/3 of a particular group on earth, not 1/3 of mankind.
The 1/3 will be refined, while the 2/3 will be 'let go' with the rest of the world/pagans/lost.
However, it is not clear at this time, except that most everywhere are obviously lost and rebelling against Jesus willingly/ being people are selfish instead of willingly and joyously self-sacrificing the way Jesus says is required.
 
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joshua 1 9

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"when is that?"
When it is done.
Jesus teaches that we are to become as a small child to enter into Heaven Matthew 19:4 "But Jesus said, Suffer little children, and forbid them not, to come unto me: for of such is the kingdom of heaven." Matthew 18:3 “Truly I tell you,” He said, “unless you change and become like little children, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven. 4 "Therefore, whoever humbles himself like this little child is the greatest in the kingdom of heaven." Mark 10:15 "Truly I tell you, anyone who does not receive the kingdom of God like a little child will never enter in."
 
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joshua 1 9

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I think it is closer to truth if 1/3 is 1/3 of a particular group on earth,
The one third does represent Israel. The belief is that the work God did with Israel, He is now doing with the gentiles. We are wild branches grafted in. We are told that a Great Multitude will be saved from every tribe, nation, tongue and people:

Rev 7:9 "After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands"

We know that no one can number the people that are saved from the beginning to the end. God knows the end from the beginning. Jesus is the alpha and the omega, the beginning and the end.
 
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In preparation for this foundational verse of everlasting punishment we will consider a couple of questions.

Questions

1. Would not endless punishment be the return of evil for evil? "Endless punishment" is another way of saying that there is no return.

2. As we are commanded "to overcome evil with good," may we not safely infer that God will do the same? (Rom. 12:21) It is good to end evil. God will end evil and that will be good. Even evil gets tired of it.

3. Would the infliction of endless punishment be overcoming evil with good? There is not infliction of "endless punishment" like the punishment itself goes on and on. The punishment does its job and then it is over and that is what is "everlasting" about it. No return of evil, sin, death, diseases etc.

4. If God hates the sinner, does the sinner do wrong in hating Him? God hates sin, not the sinner unless he becomes the embodiment of sin.

5. Is God a changeable being? (James 1:17)Nope, as in no change in character. Yes, in the ability to be what ever He wants to be.

6. If God loves His enemies now, will he not always love them? Loving them and doing what is best are two different things. He will be sad as the day He wiped the face of the earth to start with a clean slate. When He cleans the earth with fire, it will be a sad day again, but the future is much brighter for having removed the sin, sinners, disease, destruction, poisons, toxins, and return this earth to a new heaven and earth without sin and all its destructive attributes.

7. Is it just for God to be "kind to the evil and unthankful," in their present life? (Luke 6:35) Absolutely, winning many with salvation.

8. Would it be unjust for God to be kind to all men in a future state? ??

9. If all men justly deserve endless punishment, will not those who are saved, be saved unjustly? ??

10. If God "will by no means clear the guilty," by what means can just punishment be evaded? (Ex. 34:7) Blotting out the sins on thy Book of Life with His Blood, and it is covered. That is the forgiveness that is like it never happened.

11. As no man can measure endless punishment to his neighbor, will endless punishment be measured to him? (Luke 4:38) Yes, as indicated that the last to die will be Satan, who can walk in the midst of fire, and yet is consumed by fire from within...

12. Would it be merciful in God to inflict endless punishment? -- that is, merciful to the sufferer? Yes, so some sinners it will be determined to be quick and no more, for others the meted out punishment will be according to the judgment made on Judgement Day.

13. Can that be just which is not merciful? Satan's punishment is not merciful.

14. Do not cruelty and injustice go hand in hand? Yes

15. Can that be merciful which is not just? No

-A. C. Thomas- My answers in red
 
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