Matt. 25:46 Everlasting Punishment

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What is the purpose for punishment?

To execute fair justice.
Justice would not be executed fairly if Universalism was true, or if ECT (Eternal Conscious Torment) was true.

If Universalism was true, it would not be fair justice because people who did evil would just eventually make into Heaven (despite them being unrepentant and unwilling to come to God). If Universalism was true, it means that what I do in this life really does not matter, and there are no real consequences to my actions in the grand scope of eternity.

If Eternal Conscious Torment was true, it would not be fair justice because God would be punishing a person waaaay beyond what the crime calls for. He would be punishing a person for eternity for a finite amount of sins committed. That is overkill, and cruel, and it is not fair justice. That would be like endlessly torturing a child for lying to their parents. It's overkill and cruel. It doesn't make any sense.
 
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FineLinen

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I disagree. I believe the Bible clearly teaches...

Dear B.H.: You evidently did not read the purpose of this link. If you would like to start a link regarding aionios destruction please begin a link and we shall discuss it.

It is wonderful the Bible "clearly" teaches!

I will lay odds on the life of my precious wife, that 2000 years has made it impossible for the Master to be required to>>>>

Then opened He their minds that they might understand the Scriptures.
 
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devin553344

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In preparation for this foundational verse of everlasting punishment we will consider a couple of questions.

Questions

1. Would not endless punishment be the return of evil for evil?

2. As we are commanded "to overcome evil with good," may we not safely infer that God will do the same? (Rom. 12:21)

3. Would the infliction of endless punishment be overcoming evil with good?

4. If God hates the sinner, does the sinner do wrong in hating Him?

5. Is God a changeable being? (James 1:17)

6. If God loves His enemies now, will he not always love them?

7. Is it just for God to be "kind to the evil and unthankful," in their present life? (Luke 6:35)

8. Would it be unjust for God to be kind to all men in a future state?

9. If all men justly deserve endless punishment, will not those who are saved, be saved unjustly?

10. If God "will by no means clear the guilty," by what means can just punishment be evaded? (Ex. 34:7)

11. As no man can measure endless punishment to his neighbor, will endless punishment be measured to him? (Luke 4:38)

12. Would it be merciful in God to inflict endless punishment? -- that is, merciful to the sufferer?

13. Can that be just which is not merciful?

14. Do not cruelty and injustice go hand in hand?

15. Can that be merciful which is not just?

-A. C. Thomas-

The bible spells out spiritual death and eternal suffering. I take that to mean death and loss of a personage. So when spirits are cast into the lake of fire they die spiritually, not tormented day and night forever. I think being tormented day and night forever is the fate of the father of the spirits that are cast into the lake of fire. Like they could have lived forever as spirits but that is lost. So it is forever lost.
 
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Dear B.H.: You evidently did not read the purpose of this link. If you would like to start a link regarding aionios destruction please begin a link and we shall discuss it.

It is wonderful the Bible "clearly" teaches!

I will lay odds on the life of my precious wife, that 2000 years has made it impossible for the Master to be required to>>>>

The opened He their minds that they might understand the Scriptures.

I responded to the context by filling in the blank spaces you provided. So I am not sure what I had missed.

I believe Universalism is highly unbiblical. It undermines the need to choose Christ, and to live for Him. A temporary time of suffering in hell for the wicked still does not mean justice is being done (if they are to eventually enter God's Kingdom one day). The Bible never says the wicked will be saved in the end.

As for Greek word studies: Yeah, I don't know biblical Greek with 100% certainty. I am pretty sure most people today do not know it like they do English or their own native tongue, either. I think it is best to stick to reading our Bibles in the English and looking at the context to define a word (like you did in your OP).
 
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PaulCyp1

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Hell is everlasting, but it is not "punishment". Every human being is offered eternal happiness with God, and instructed how to receive what has been offered. Many follow the instructions and receive the gift. Many reject the instructions and forfeit the gift, thereby freely choosing an eternity without God. And, since God is the source of all that is good, this also means an eternity in the absence of anything good, and therefore the eternal presence of everything bad. If I see a poor person on the street, and offer to give him a hundred dollars, free and clear, and tell him to meet me on the corner of Broadway and North Street at noon the following day, then receiving the offered gift is entirely up to him. If he does what I instructed him to do, he will receive the gift. If he chooses not to follow my instructions, he won't receive the gift. In either case, there is no punishment involved.
 
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FineLinen

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To execute fair justice.
Justice would not be executed fairly if Universalism was true, or if ECT (Eternal Conscious Torment) was true.

Dear B.H. My friend we are not discussing Universalism on this link! Not!

Justice, on the other hand, is exactly where we are headed. The Lord Jesus Christ expresses by parable the 5 foundational reasons for "everlasting punishment".

Justice

Unspoken Sermons by George MacDonald: Justice
 
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Dear B.H. My friend we are not discussing Universalism on this link! Not!

Justice, on the other hand, is exactly where we are headed. The Lord Jesus Christ expresses by parable the 5 foundational reasons for "everlasting punishment".

Justice

Unspoken Sermons by George MacDonald: Justice

I understand you don't want to talk about Universalism, but I have to know what you believe in regards to the punishment of the wicked. Last I remember, you defended Universalism. Did you change your mind? Defending the idea of "everlasting punishment" in today's modern thinking conjures up the idea of Eternal Conscious Torment. Surely that is not what you are proposing here (unless of course you changed your belief on your view of the Lake of Fire recently).
 
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Oldmantook

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To execute fair justice.
Justice would not be executed fairly if Universalism was true, or if ECT (Eternal Conscious Torment) was true.

If Universalism was true, it would not be fair justice because people who did evil would just eventually make into Heaven (despite them being unrepentant and unwilling to come to God). If Universalism was true, it means that what I do in this life really does not matter, and there are no real consequences to my actions in the grand scope of eternity.

If Eternal Conscious Torment was true, it would not be fair justice because God would be punishing a person waaaay beyond what the crime calls for. He would be punishing a person for eternity for a finite amount of sins committed. That is overkill, and cruel, and it is not fair justice. That would be like endlessly torturing a child for lying to their parents. It's overkill and cruel. It doesn't make any sense.
There are many variations of Universalism - some so extreme that deny the existence of a literal hell or lake of fire. There is an evangelical universalism that affirms the sacrificial blood of Jesus to be the one and only sufficient propitiation for sin. And it also affirms that there is a literal LOF and those who don't believe and are unsaved eventually end up in the LOF but the duration of punishment there is for an "age" and is not "forever." Mercy and justice go hand in hand as God is both merciful but he also exercises justice. I agree with you that ECT is overkill and cruel. Evangelical universalism best meets the demand for both justice and mercy.
 
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Dear B.H. My friend we are not discussing Universalism on this link! Not!

Justice, on the other hand, is exactly where we are headed. The Lord Jesus Christ expresses by parable the 5 foundational reasons for "everlasting punishment".

Justice

Unspoken Sermons by George MacDonald: Justice

Not reading an article that is not on the forums. Please copy and paste a few highlighted snippets from the article to get your point across.
 
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FineLinen

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Hell is everlasting, but it is not "punishment". Every human being is offered eternal happiness with God, and instructed how to receive what has been offered. Many follow the instructions and receive the gift. Many reject the instructions and forfeit the gift, thereby freely choosing an eternity without God. And, since God is the source of all that is good, this also means an eternity in the absence of anything good, and therefore the eternal presence of everything bad. If I see a poor person on the street, and offer to give him a hundred dollars, free and clear, and tell him to meet me on the corner of Broadway and North Street at noon the following day, then receiving the offered gift is entirely up to him. If he does what I instructed him to do, he will receive the gift. If he chooses not to follow my instructions, he won't receive the gift. In either case, there is no punishment involved.

Dear Paul: Perhaps the Master's word has changed this year

"You DID NOT choose Me, I chose you..."

Dear present days disciples of Jesus Christ>>>>

You can now choose Him.
 
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There are many variations of Universalism - some so extreme that deny the existence of a literal hell or lake of fire. There is an evangelical universalism that affirms the sacrificial blood of Jesus to be the one and only sufficient propitiation for sin. And it also affirms that there is a literal LOF and those who don't believe and are unsaved eventually end up in the LOF but the duration of punishment there is for an "age" and is not "forever." Mercy and justice go hand in hand as God is both merciful but he also exercises justice. I agree with you that ECT is overkill and cruel. Evangelical universalism best meets the demand for both justice and mercy.

So the wicked will be punished for a season, and then be in God's Kingdom?
If so, that makes no sense. That would mean that anything I do here does not matter in the grand scope of eternity. What I do here only alleviates temporary amount of suffering. But do we not suffer in this life even for the cause of good?
 
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Oldmantook

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In preparation for this foundational verse of everlasting punishment we will consider a couple of questions.

Questions

1. Would not endless punishment be the return of evil for evil?

2. As we are commanded "to overcome evil with good," may we not safely infer that God will do the same? (Rom. 12:21)

3. Would the infliction of endless punishment be overcoming evil with good?

4. If God hates the sinner, does the sinner do wrong in hating Him?

5. Is God a changeable being? (James 1:17)

6. If God loves His enemies now, will he not always love them?

7. Is it just for God to be "kind to the evil and unthankful," in their present life? (Luke 6:35)

8. Would it be unjust for God to be kind to all men in a future state?

9. If all men justly deserve endless punishment, will not those who are saved, be saved unjustly?

10. If God "will by no means clear the guilty," by what means can just punishment be evaded? (Ex. 34:7)

11. As no man can measure endless punishment to his neighbor, will endless punishment be measured to him? (Luke 4:38)

12. Would it be merciful in God to inflict endless punishment? -- that is, merciful to the sufferer?

13. Can that be just which is not merciful?

14. Do not cruelty and injustice go hand in hand?

15. Can that be merciful which is not just?

-A. C. Thomas-
Perhaps you forgot one question especially since you have proposed these questions in the context of Matt 25:46. Since this verse refers to the sheep-goat judgment, "endless" punishment cannot be the correct translation since the the sheep nations are told to enter into the millennial kingdom on earth for 1,000 years, while the goats enter into the lake of fire for the same limited duration of time. So another question would be "Is endless punishment really endless?"
 
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FineLinen

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Not reading an article that is not on the forums. Please copy and paste a few highlighted snippets from the article to get your point across.

Dear B.H.: Gladly.

"Also unto You, O Lord, belongs mercy; for You render to every man according to his work."

2019 Version=

To You, O Lord, belongs justice, for You render to every man according to his work.
 
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Oldmantook

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So the wicked will be punished for a season, and then be in God's Kingdom?
If so, that makes no sense. That would mean that anything I do here does not matter in the grand scope of eternity. What I do here only alleviates temporary amount of suffering. But do we not suffer in this life even for the cause of good?
It does indeed matter what you or I do. Would you want to be in the lake of fire for even a minute? I would not. Unbelief has its consequences.
 
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It does indeed matter what you or I do. Would you want to be in the lake of fire for even a minute? I would not. Unbelief has its consequences.

Again, it still undermines the grand scope of our actions in light of eternity. To see men of God struggle to enter God's Kingdom to find people who did not care to be there is an insult to the struggle they made to enter the Lord's Kingdom. They did not nothing worthy to be there. In fact, they don't really want to be there. Many would have to be lobotomized in some way in order to be in God's Kingdom. Some may not take kindly to being tortured in flames for any length of time. If they had their chance, they would try to slaughter God's people to get back at God for the pain they were caused. In short, some people never learn or never want to change.

The Bible does not talk about the wicked being tortured in the Lake of Fire with them later on being saved so as to be in God's Kingdom. It's just not in the Bible.
 
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FineLinen

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I believe "perish" is a term reserved for the "flesh" of our triune makeup. Your spirit doesn't return to dust or ashes. Your spirit doesn't even go to the grave. And the 'soul' is the functioning aspect of the brain...pretty unaffected by the bunson burner hell that the church preaches IMO. And that's why the GRAVE is mentioned in;

1CO 15:55 O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?

Christians, as a people group still sin plenty, and that's why their bodies succumb to death and end up in the grave today. Jesus brought "LIFE and IMMORTALITY to light", but Christians still love the flesh and the dark and the 'sin that when it becomes mature leads to physical death.' They do that rather than pursue the immortality Jesus died to give us access to.
ROM 2:7 to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life;

Of the fact that sin runs unreigned in the church, there is no doubt. Even the last statistic I saw concerning the number of pastors caught in inappropriate content on the internet is astounding. No wonder there is 77% pastor "burnout". Burnout can't come from living up to the promises of God in the NT for ALL.

JAM 1:15 Then desire when it has conceived gives birth to sin; and sin when it is full-grown brings forth death.

When your spirit 'departs' your body drops dead. That is scripture. So you aren't burying a spirit (made in the image of God who IS SPIRIT Joh 4:24) in a cemetary.

JAM 2:26 For as the body apart from the spirit is DEAD,

Spirit departure and physical death was so for the girl Jesus raised from the dead when "her spirit returned" Luke 8:55, and it was true of Jesus who died AFTER surrendering his spirit to the Father's hand.

Therein lies the big problem Halbhh, the church doesn't use modern translations based on "the literal view" which you espouse above, they base their bible understanding on the 'accepted non literal interpretations'. Bible interpretations which undoubtedly agree with modern theology. They just don't agree with the interpretation of antiquity before the coming of the Great Apostasy church age which destroyed many of the truths held. The nominal church did so, to maintain their religious and political control over the masses and their money. Can't watch any movie or documentary or read any historical expose and not realize that spiritual darkness and atrocities of 'the church' changed radically within a few hundred years after the apostles. The 'dark ages' were the spiritual result of the 'spiritual darkness' of the nominal church IMO.

Dear Hillsage: My old bones are in need of a quality bone fixer upper. It is always a joy seeing you and that gem MKGal!

I am hoping to retire from posting. Retirement will lack quality with disarranged old bones.
 
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Oldmantook

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Again, it still undermines the grand scope of our actions in light of eternity. To see men of God struggle to enter God's Kingdom to find people who did not care to be there is an insult to the struggle they made to enter the Lord's Kingdom. They did not nothing worthy to be there. In fact, they don't really want to be there. Many would have to be lobotomized in some way in order to be in God's Kingdom. Some may not take kindly to being tortured in flames for any length of time. If they had their chance, they would try to slaughter God's people to get back at God for the pain they were caused. In short, some people never learn or never want to change.

The Bible does not talk about the wicked being tortured in the Lake of Fire with them later on being saved so as to be in God's Kingdom. It's just not in the Bible.
You're entitled to your opinion but I disagree. We either die to ourselves, take up our crosses and follow Him in this life OR die to ourselves, take up our crosses and follow Him in the LOF. The choice is ours; I prefer the former.
Read the scriptures for yourself carefully and don't simply accept what you were taught. Phil 2:10
"so that at the name of Jesus EVERY KNEE WILL BOW, of those who are in heaven and on earth and under the earth," NASB
Hades is under the earth. All of those souls in Hades will bow at the name of Jesus. Unsaved sinners are never said to bow their knee at the name of Jesus.
 
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Apparently a false prophet, a false teacher, full of errors. (not worth the time to fully expose the darkness in this op, but just a warning sign, a red flag, for those unaware.

1. Would not endless punishment be the return of evil for evil?
no
2. As we are commanded "to overcome evil with good," may we not safely infer that God will do the same? (Rom. 12:21)
no
3. Would the infliction of endless punishment be overcoming evil with good?
non sequitur
4. If God hates the sinner, does the sinner do wrong in hating Him?
yes
6. If God loves His enemies now, will he not always love them?
no... see in Scripture how Yahuweh Hates the perverse in heart posters and others ...
7. Is it just for God to be "kind to the evil and unthankful," in their present life? (Luke 6:35)
no
8. Would it be unjust for God to be kind to all men in a future state?
Yahuweh cannot be unjust. Most men in the future are tossed in the lake of fire, justly.
9. If all men justly deserve endless punishment, will not those who are saved, be saved unjustly?
no
10. If God "will by no means clear the guilty," by what means can just punishment be evaded? (Ex. 34:7)
impossible
11. As no man can measure endless punishment to his neighbor, will endless punishment be measured to him? (Luke 4:38)
no, senseless question.
12. Would it be merciful in God to inflict endless punishment? -- that is, merciful to the sufferer?
the sufferer does not get nor deserve mercy
13. Can that be just which is not merciful?
yes
14. Do not cruelty and injustice go hand in hand?
no, this is a false presumptions assumed by false teacher
15. Can that be merciful which is not just?
yes

Insignificant questions: a lot of false presumptions by the source..... no valid info is given, and no valid decisions can be made based on the false premises started with.
 
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Dear B.H.: Gladly.

"Also unto You, O Lord, belongs mercy; for You render to every man according to his work."

2019 Version=

To You, O Lord, belongs justice, for You render to every man according to his work.

No thanks. I am sticking with the trusty ole KJV on this one.
It's "mercy" and not "justice."

God's mercy reigns even when wicked men do wicked things by his holding back wrath and judgment done against Him. The Lord's mercy holds back judgment against their evil works that will come upon them if they don't repent. God is holding out his hands in love to the longest possible moment for them to repent (or seek forgiveness with Him).

"The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance." (2 Peter 3:9).

"But to Israel he saith, All day long I have stretched forth my hands unto a disobedient and gainsaying people." (Romans 10:21).

Mercy belongs to the Lord in the fact that judgment will not be executed immediately upon them, but it will come one day according to their works.

God's mercy reigns involving the good works of His righteous people.
For grace reigns through righteousness (Romans 5:21).
The reason why Christ died for us was for the purpose that He might sanctify and cleanse us with the washing of the water of the Word (Scripture) so that He may present to Himself a church that is holy and blameless (Ephesians 5:25-27).
God's grace teaches us to deny ungodliness, and that we should live righteously and godly in this present world (Titus 2:11-12).

Mercy belongs to the Lord and it is in harmony with His judgment even involving His people. For grace reigns through righteousness (or righteous living). Judgment first must begin at the house of God.
 
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