Soterilosity - A person can lose salvation

Hammster · Aug 6, 2019

BNR32FAN said:
Where?

Hammster said:
No, that can’t be.

You have not yet resisted to the point of shedding blood in your striving against sin; and you have forgotten the exhortation which is addressed to you as sons,
“My son, do not regard lightly the discipline of the Lord,
Nor faint when you are reproved by Him; For those whom the Lord loves He disciplines,
And He scourges every son whom He receives.” It is for discipline that you endure; God deals with you as with sons; for what son is there whom his father does not discipline? But if you are without discipline, of which all have become partakers, then you are illegitimate children and not sons. Furthermore, we had earthly fathers to discipline us, and we respected them; shall we not much rather be subject to the Father of spirits, and live? For they disciplined us for a short time as seemed best to them, but He disciplines us for our good, so that we may share His holiness. All discipline for the moment seems not to be joyful, but sorrowful; yet to those who have been trained by it, afterwards it yields the peaceful fruit of righteousness.
— Hebrews 12:4-11

Hammster · Aug 6, 2019

BNR32FAN said:
Do you believe in predestination? Because that’s what your implying by saying people are His sheep before hearing the gospel.

I’m not implying anything. I’m saying what the text says.

Hammster · Aug 6, 2019

BNR32FAN said:
So then if they should stop hearing and following they are still His sheep?

They may for a time. But He’s a Good Shepherd and will bring them back.

BNR32FAN · Aug 6, 2019

Hammster said:
No, that can’t be.

You have not yet resisted to the point of shedding blood in your striving against sin; and you have forgotten the exhortation which is addressed to you as sons,
“My son, do not regard lightly the discipline of the Lord,
Nor faint when you are reproved by Him; For those whom the Lord loves He disciplines,
And He scourges every son whom He receives.” It is for discipline that you endure; God deals with you as with sons; for what son is there whom his father does not discipline? But if you are without discipline, of which all have become partakers, then you are illegitimate children and not sons. Furthermore, we had earthly fathers to discipline us, and we respected them; shall we not much rather be subject to the Father of spirits, and live? For they disciplined us for a short time as seemed best to them, but He disciplines us for our good, so that we may share His holiness. All discipline for the moment seems not to be joyful, but sorrowful; yet to those who have been trained by it, afterwards it yields the peaceful fruit of righteousness.
— Hebrews 12:4-11

What does this have to do with being cut off from the vine (which is Christ) cast away to wither and cast into the fire to be burned? Nothing in this message indicates this as being a temporary punishment. The word cast means to throw away without care or regard often in a violent or intense manner. The word whither means to dry up and waste away. And of course we all know what fire and burned means. This is referring to the wrath of God not a temporary punishment.

BNR32FAN · Aug 6, 2019

Hammster said:
They may for a time. But He’s a Good Shepherd and will bring them back.

Then no one can fail to abide in Christ is what your saying? John 15:6

BNR32FAN · Aug 6, 2019

Hammster said:
I’m not implying anything. I’m saying what the text says.

Oh but you must be implying it because how else can someone be His sheep if they have never heard the gospel? How can they make this choice if they do not know about Jesus?

Hammster · Aug 6, 2019

BNR32FAN said:
What does this have to do with being cut off from the vine (which is Christ) cast away to wither and cast into the fire to be burned? Nothing in this message indicates this as being a temporary punishment. The word cast means to throw away without care or regard often in a violent or intense manner. The word whither means to dry up and waste away. And of course we all know what fire and burned means. This is referring to the wrath of God not a temporary punishment.

So God casts His adopted children into the fire? What sort of Father does that?

Hammster · Aug 6, 2019

BNR32FAN said:
Then no one can fail to abide in Christ is what your saying? John 15:6

I’m saying that Fathers discipline their children. Shepherds keep watch over their sheep.

Hammster · Aug 6, 2019

BNR32FAN said:
Oh but you must be implying it because how else can someone be His sheep if they have never heard the gospel? How can they make this choice if they do not know about Jesus?

I’m not implying anything. Have I said anything outside of what Jesus said?

BNR32FAN · Aug 6, 2019

Hammster said:
So God casts His adopted children into the fire? What sort of Father does that?

Our Heavenly Father

BNR32FAN · Aug 6, 2019

Hammster said:
I’m saying that Fathers discipline their children. Shepherds keep watch over their sheep.

Ok let me ask another way since your obviously being obtuse to avoid the question. Can someone fail to abide in Christ? If so how can they be in Christ and then fail to remain in Christ?

BNR32FAN · Aug 6, 2019

Hammster said:
I’m not implying anything. Have I said anything outside of what Jesus said?

Again your dodging the question.

Hammster · Aug 6, 2019

BNR32FAN said:
Our Heavenly Father

Wow. We have a much different view of what it means to be a Father. My dad was a hard man, and he was better then that.

Hammster · Aug 6, 2019

BNR32FAN said:
Ok let me ask another way since your obviously being obtuse to avoid the question. Can someone fail to abide in Christ? If so how can they be in Christ and then fail to remain in Christ?

One of His own cannot fail. They produce fruit. We don’t produce it ourselves.

Hammster · Aug 6, 2019

BNR32FAN said:
Again your dodging the question.

I didn’t dodge anything. I’ve been clear. He has sheep. He doesn’t look for whatever they are before they are His sheep and turn them into His sheep. He said that He came for the lost sheep of Israel, and that He had other sheep not in this fold. Sounds to me like actual sheep, and not potential sheep.

sdowney717 · Aug 6, 2019

Psalm 100 New King James Version (NKJV)
A Song of Praise for the Lord’s Faithfulness to His People
A Psalm of Thanksgiving.
1 Make a joyful shout to the Lord all you lands!
2 Serve the Lord with gladness;
Come before His presence with singing.

3 Know that the Lord, He is God;
It is He who has made us, and not we ourselves;
We are His people and the sheep of His pasture.

4 Enter into His gates with thanksgiving,
And into His courts with praise.
Be thankful to Him, and bless His name.
5 For the Lord is good;
His mercy is everlasting,
And His truth endures to all generations.

sdowney717 · Aug 6, 2019

John 10:26 But you do not believe, because you are not of My sheep, as I said to you.

We are His sheep because HE has made us to be His sheep and belong to Him as a purchased possession. And this is why when Jesus appears in our life, reveals who He is to our inner man of the Spirit, we believe in Him. Because HE predestined us to be chosen in Him from the foundation of the world.

Gregory Thompson · Aug 6, 2019

BNR32FAN said:
What are your thoughts on John 15:1-10?

“"I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser. Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit, He cuts off and every branch that bears fruit, He prunes it so that it may bear more fruit. You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you. Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself unless it abides in the vine, so neither can you unless you abide in Me. I am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me and I in him, he bears much fruit, for apart from Me you can do nothing. If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away as a branch and dries up; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire and they are burned. If you abide in Me, and My words abide in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be done for you. My Father is glorified by this, that you bear much fruit, and so prove to be My disciples. Just as the Father has loved Me, I have also loved you; abide in My love. If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love; just as I have kept My Father's commandments and abide in His love.”
‭‭John‬ ‭15:1-10‬

It's a living parable much like being born again which gives some compatibility.

The burning of non-fruit producing branches is similar to what Paul said about some being saved as though through fire but their "works" will be burned.

A similar dichotomy is spoken about those who become as the stars forever and ever in Daniel.
Daniel 12
2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.
3 And they that be wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament; and they that turn many to righteousness as the stars for ever and ever.

Mistaking the "overcomers prize" for basic salvation is a common mistake.

Noted also in the John passage provided, a distinction where Jesus followed His Father's commandments, and we are given His.

In terms of following the commandments of Jesus, the gospel also indicates that those who do not teach and follow the sayings of Jesus, they will be least in the Kingdom, but it does not say they will not be in the kingdom.

Those who are like the pharisees will not enter at all tho.

hedrick · Aug 6, 2019

I just looked at Acts 5. The salvation of Ananias and Sapphira is not mentioned. Maybe they weren't saved in the first place. Maybe they were and remained saved. They were punished severely, but that doesn't necessarily mean they were damned. The text just doesn't say

Calvin comments: "But the greatness of the spiritual judgment, which is as yet hid, hath been set before us in the bodily punishment of two, as in a mirror. For if we consider what it is to be cast into eternal fire, we shall not judge that this is the greatest evil and punishment of all, to fall down dead before men."

BNR32FAN · Aug 6, 2019

Hammster said:
Wow. We have a much different view of what it means to be a Father. My dad was a hard man, and he was better then that.

But God so loved the world (kosmos meaning the entire inhabitants of the world) that He gave His only begotten Son. We are His adopted children whom He gave the power and authority to become His adopted children, and yet the majority of those whom God loved will burn in the lake of fire. He is not like your dad or mine. He is just and He does have a wrath that is eternal. Would your dad sentence you to eternal punishment if you were constantly disobedient? God’s ways are not our ways.

Soterilosity - A person can lose salvation

Psalm 144:1

Psalm 144:1

Psalm 144:1

He’s a Way of life

He’s a Way of life

He’s a Way of life

Psalm 144:1

Psalm 144:1

Psalm 144:1

He’s a Way of life

He’s a Way of life

He’s a Way of life

Psalm 144:1

Psalm 144:1

Psalm 144:1

Newbie

Newbie

Change is inevitable, feel free to spare some.

Senior Veteran

He’s a Way of life

Similar threads