1st century 70ad Jerusalem symbolizing "Gehenna" "Lake of Fire"?

1st Jerusalem possibly symbolizing "Gehenna" and "Lake of Fire"?

  • That is an absurb view

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • I have never thought of it that way

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • I don't know right now

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Other

    Votes: 0 0.0%

  • Total voters
    4

LittleLambofJesus

Hebrews 2:14.... Pesky Devil, git!
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Since the original thread on this topic I created is more than 9 yrs old and was created on the GT board, I thought I would just start a new one on it.

I would like to ask other fellow others here if it is possible, and even scriptural, that whatever City is being symbolized here, if it is possible it could also symbolize the "lake of fire"? Thoughts?
I voted option 1...1st century Jerusalem
Poll from the original poll

OC Jerusalem, Lake of Fire the Same?
Jan 20, 2010
  1. *
    Yes it is possible they are the same
    5 vote(s)
    13.2%
  2. No, it is not possible they are the same
    8 vote(s)
    21.1%
  3. That is an absurb and ridiculous view!
    10 vote(s)
    26.3%
  4. I have never thought of it that way
    6 vote(s)
    15.8%
  5. I don't know
    6 vote(s)
    15.8%
  6. None of the above
    3 vote(s)
    7.9%
Responses from the 1st page of thread:
lol . will think about it .

bless .
I always thought the Lake of fire is Hell
what is oc and where is a city burning?
i can't vote because i still don't understand your question.
so are you saying that you think that the city of Jerusalem in old testament times was the lake of fire?
did the whole city burn down at some point?
hmmmmmmm.....never considered that.....cuz when i think of Lake of Fire, i think of the judgement, God's White Throne Judgement and how "final" that is...because heaven and earth has passed away...it appears to me, to be in the future.
it certainly could symbolize the OC Priesthood, Pharisees, Sadducees, etc.
this is realllly deep...gotta munch on this....
OK, I "bit" ... er, voted :)
As the Holy Scripture 'reads' on many levels (there is hidden in the physical the spiritual, and the spiritual is expressed in the physical, for ex.) I do think that is possible.
This I would like to contemplate more ...
yep. and isn't the lake of fire supposed to burn forever?
Rev. 20:10 And the devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where also the beast and the false prophet were; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.
If the entire city of Jerusalem was burnt down, it is not still burning.
Hmm i guess that would depend if the great city were jerusalem .
if not then it would make the city limits of rome the lake of fire . but if the beast is thrown into the lake of fire, then how can the ten horns burn the great city riding on the beast?
because in one scene the city is burned by rulers but in the scene where those rulers are devoured by birds and killed by the guy on the horsey and the sword coming out of his mouth well i guess dead guys cannot throw too far eh?
i'll lurk a bit before voting . i don't think i understand the question yet .
the 'lake of fire' is a figurative expression used symbolically to describe the type and nature of a judgment that is Divinely inspired by God.
These expressions lake of fire/unquechable fire/are common expressions used throughout biblical prophecy, in both the OT and the NT.
They serve to express a judgment from God that is against a nation of people.
Isaiah 34 gives an accurate detailing of these prophetic expressions against Edom, and were fulfilled 2500 years ago.
The usage of lake in John's prophecetic term 'lake of fire' is equivalent to the fiery judgment coming upon the nation of Israel like a flood. Just as Daniel and Hosea had used this expression..
Hosea 5:10
Judah's leaders are like those who move boundary stones. I will pour out my wrath on them like a flood of water.
Daniel 9:26
After the sixty-two 'sevens,' the Anointed One will be cut off and will have nothing. The people of the ruler who will come will destroy the city and the sanctuary. The end will come like a flood: War will continue until the end, and desolations have been decreed.
David uses this same type of expresion in his Psalm
Psalm 88:17
All day long they surround me like a flood; they have completely engulfed me.

John uses 'lake' as 'flood' is used in the scriptures and for the same purposes in describing how the fiery judgment from God will be overwhelming to those who are subjected to it.
On the flip side 'flood' is used to describe how God pours out His blessings upon someone as well, as if to say God opens the floodgates of heaven and pours out His blessings.
The language is figurative and not literal. There is no literal 'lake of fire' that is suggested as a place in an afterlife realm for tormenting souls for eternity.
Those two cites/towers/mountains/land/earth are pictures of the same soul in either the state of saving it, or losing it, and relate to the individual as much as it does to the collective of this truth, which relate to the perception of self as the son we are. The deceived soul (Eve (not the woman) is the mother of all living and equates to Hagar as it does to Babylon, which becomes a confusion of face, hence the first heaven and earth (or the perception there of/as an Ishmael) fleeing from the face of him who sits on the throne (as a place granted to sit in which relates to the feast of Tabernacles as being in us that God rests, which is not as measured as the harlot makes it into).
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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A few interesting vids I found on this topic:

Matthew 23:33
"Serpents! produce of vipers!
how? ye may be fleeing from the judging<2920> of the Gehenna <1067>

............................
............................
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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brinny

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LOL! God bless you, amigo.

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LittleLambofJesus

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James mentions "the tongue is a fire and set on fire by the fire of the "gehenna":

Genesis 1:1 (YLT)
G1067
γέεννα (geenna), occurs 12 times in 12 verses

Jas 3:6
and the tongue is a fire, the world of the unrighteousness, so the tongue is set in our members, which is spotting our whole body,
and is setting on fire the course of nature, and is set on fire by the gehenna.

Acts 2:3
and there appeared to them divided tongues, as it were of fire; it sat also upon each one of them,
===============
Isa 5:24
Therefore, as a tongue of fire devoureth stubble, And flaming hay falleth, Their root is as muck, And their flower as dust goeth up.
Because they have rejected the law of Jehovah of Hosts, And the saying of the Holy One of Israel despised.
Isa 30:27
Lo, the name of Jehovah is coming from far, Burning is His anger, and great the flame, His lips have been full of indignation, And His tongue is as a devouring fire.
==============================
This "Covenantle" parable/story" in Luke 16 show a man's tongue burning and being tormented in a flame and asking Abraham to send a finger tip of water to him....
parable!
What about the rich man tormented in a flame Luke 16:24

Lazarus and the Rich Man - Here a little, there a little - Commentary

Let's start by getting some background information on the situation in which Yeshua told this parable. Luke tells us that all the tax collectors and sinners were coming to the Messiah to hear what he had to say (Luke 15:1)..........
The self-righteous Pharisees and scribes, acknowledged by Yeshua as the legitimate religious teachers of the Jews (Matt. 23:1-3), should have been the ones telling these people of God's love for them. They should have been the ones teaching these sinners, exhorting them to return to God and receive His love and forgiveness.

Afterward, speaking primarily to his disciples but with the Pharisees (and probably the crowd) still listening in, Yeshua related the parable of the unjust steward (Luke 16:1-13).
The Pharisees, who were "lovers of money" (Luke 16:14), realized that the Messiah was alluding to them with this parable and took offense. They scoffed at Yeshua. The final part of his response to the derision of the Pharisees and scribes was the parable of Lazarus and the rich man.

We'll now examine this parable in detail to grasp exactly what the Messiah was teaching about the kingdom of God:

LUKE 16:
22 "So it was that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels to Abraham's bosom. The rich man also died and was buried."
23 "And being in torments in Hades, he lifted up his eyes and saw Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom."
24
And he sounding said "Father Abraham! be thou merciful to-me! and send Lazarus! that he should be dipping the tip of the finger of him of water and should be cooling down the tongue of me
that I am being pained in this Flame."

======

First, notice that the rich man identifies Abraham as his father, just as the Pharisees did (John 8:39). The rich man (Judah) is now shown to be undergoing reproof, testing, and punishment in "this flame" (singular, not "these flames"). It is quite obvious that the flame is not literal, because a wet fingertip on the tongue would do nothing to quench the pain inflicted by real flames.

The word rendered "torment" here is a form of the Greek verb odunao, which literally means "grief," "pain," or "suffering." Predominantly, it conveys the sense of mental anguish, not physical pain. Forms of this word are found only four times in the Scriptures, all in the writings of Luke. It appears twice in this parable, in verses 24 and 25. In Luke 2:48, it is used to describe the anxious distress that Mary and Joseph felt after they discovered the 12-year old Yeshua missing on the trip home from Jerusalem after the Passover feast. In Acts 20:38, it depicts the sorrow the elders of the Ephesian Church felt at Paul's farewell announcement that they would never see him again.

The rich man cries out from the symbolic darkness of Hades for comfort because of the suffering caused by the flame. The explanation of the symbolism of the flame will require a little background information....................

The fact that the rich man has five brothers is a vital clue to his true symbolic identity. Judah, the progenitor of the Jews, was the son of Jacob through Leah (Gen. 29:35). He had five full-blooded brothers: Reuben, Simeon, Levi, Issachar, and Zebulun (Gen. 35:23).

While the significance of this seemingly pointless detail has been neglected by scholars throughout the centuries, you can be certain that it did not escape the notice of the Pharisees and scribes to which Yeshua was speaking. They thoroughly knew their history and were extremely proud of their heritage.

Yeshua wanted those self-righteous Pharisees to know exactly who he was referring to with this parable. This detail cements the identity of the rich man as the House of Judah, the Jews!
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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LittleLambofJesus said:
:)
Hey brin.......welp, ya can alwayz change yer vote later ;)
LOL! Thanks LLOJ, but yu know i won't.
:D
With God, anything is possible........:pray:
LOL! God bless you, amigo.

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Awww....my favorite all time smiley!!!!
God bless you also dear friend and beloved child of the Most High God.......:angel:

2 Corinthians 6:18
And I shall be to ye as a father and ye shall be to Me as sons and daughters is saying Lord Almighty/pantokratwr <3841>.

The Great City/Harlot/Queen Revelation chapts 17-19

Hallelujah and Its Hebrew Meaning - Israel Study Center
“Hallelu” (הללו) and “Yah” (יה).


Revelation 19:
1 After these I hear as a great sound of a vast throng in the heaven, saying,
"HalleluYah! the salvation and the glory and the honor, and the power of our God; 2 That true and righteous His judgings, that He judges the great harlot who corrupts the earth in Her whoredom, and avenges<1556> the blood of His bond-servants out of Her hand".
3 And a second time they have declared<4483> "HalleluYah! and the smoke of Her is ascending into the ages of the ages!"
4 And fall the twenty four Elders and the four living-ones,
and they worship to the GOD the One sitting upon the Throne, saying, "Amen! HalleluYah!"
5 And a Voice came out from the Throne saying: "Be ye praising to the GOD of us, all ye bond-servants of Him, and those fearing Him, the small and the great".
6 And I hear as sound of a throng, much, and as a sound of waters, many, and as sound of thunders, strong saying: "HalleluYah! that reigns Lord the God the Almighty".

................................
 
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brinny

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With God, anything is possible........:pray:
Awww....my favorite all time smiley!!!!
God bless you also dear friend and beloved child of the Most High God.......:angel:

2 Corinthians 6:18
And I shall be to ye as a father and ye shall be to Me as sons and daughters is saying Lord Almighty/pantokratwr <3841>.

The Great City/Harlot/Queen Revelation chapts 17-19

Hallelujah and Its Hebrew Meaning - Israel Study Center
“Hallelu” (הללו) and “Yah” (יה).


Revelation 19:
1 After these I hear as a great sound of a vast throng in the heaven, saying,
"HalleluYah! the salvation and the glory and the honor, and the power of our God; 2 That true and righteous His judgings, that He judges the great harlot who corrupts the earth in Her whoredom, and avenges<1556> the blood of His bond-servants out of Her hand".
3 And a second time they have declared<4483> "HalleluYah! and the smoke of Her is ascending into the ages of the ages!"
4 And fall the twenty four Elders and the four living-ones,
and they worship to the GOD the One sitting upon the Throne, saying, "Amen! HalleluYah!"
5 And a Voice came out from the Throne saying: "Be ye praising to the GOD of us, all ye bond-servants of Him, and those fearing Him, the small and the great".
6 And I hear as sound of a throng, much, and as a sound of waters, many, and as sound of thunders, strong saying: "HalleluYah! that reigns Lord the God the Almighty".

................................

This smilie was hard to find. The site where i originally got him has shut down and he was sorta' "disappearing" from my posts.

Sooooo sad. I would've bought the site if i could (it was for sale), but i wasn't able to.

I love 'dis smilie too.

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LittleLambofJesus

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For the members who voted no, could you please explain your reasons why you voted that way?
And I would also like to get input from more members...........

1st Jerusalem possibly symbolizing "Gehenna" and "Lake of Fire"?

  1. *
    Yes
    1 vote(s)
    25.0%
  2. No
    3 vote(s)
    75.0%
  3. That is an absurb view
    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  4. I have never thought of it that way
    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  5. I don't know right now
    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
  6. Other
    0 vote(s)
    0.0%
 
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Since the original thread on this topic I created is more than 9 yrs old and was created on the GT board, I thought I would just start a new one on it.


Poll from the original poll

OC Jerusalem, Lake of Fire the Same?
Jan 20, 2010
  1. *
    Yes it is possible they are the same
    5 vote(s)
    13.2%
  2. No, it is not possible they are the same
    8 vote(s)
    21.1%
  3. That is an absurb and ridiculous view!
    10 vote(s)
    26.3%
  4. I have never thought of it that way
    6 vote(s)
    15.8%
  5. I don't know
    6 vote(s)
    15.8%
  6. None of the above
    3 vote(s)
    7.9%
Responses from the 1st page of thread:
My current perception is that the lake of fire is the consuming fire of God.
 
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BABerean2

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OC Jerusalem, Lake of Fire the Same?

No, based on the words of Christ found below.


Mat 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

.
 
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mark kennedy

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No, based on the words of Christ found below.


Mat 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.

.
12 times Jesus uses this word translated 'hell', to described the final judgment of the children of perdition. I studied the word several times and apparently it was an actual valley that was used as a trash dump. The fire never went out and it was the site of one of the niat horrific sacrifices commited by Israel at the height of their apostasy. They would lay an infant on the altar, plunge a knife in it's heart, and cast it into the flames.

Jerusalem under seige went through a hellish ordeal, but it wasn't Gehenna. Gehenna is the lake of fire where the body and soul of the children of perdition are ultimately destroyed. Hell is a place where disembodied spirits wait for final judgment. They are close to the flames perhaps floating above, or situated on the shoreline some where.
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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My current perception is that the lake of fire is the consuming fire of God.
It is also a refiner and purifier

The Lake Of Fire
In conclusion to this study, the final question is for each of us to weigh. Our God IS Consuming Fire. The Lake IS the Breath of Theos.
FineLinen said:
Dear Sky: Sulphur is correct. Your question to now consider=
What is sulphur in koine in relation to the Lake of all lakes?
Hello again dear friend.
It appears to use a form of the Greek word that is associated with God/Godlike/divine......

Strong's Concordance with Hebrew and Greek Lexicon

G2303 (YLT)
θεῖον, θείου, τό (apparently the neuter of the adjective θεῖος equivalent to divine incense, because burning brimstone was regarded as having power to purify, and to ward off contagion (but Curtius, § 320 allies it with θύω; cf. Latinfumus, English dust)), brimstone: Luke 17:29; Revelation 9:17; Revelation 14:10; Revelation 19:20; (Revelation 20:10); Revelation 21:8. (Genesis 19:24; Psalm 10:6 (Ps. 11:6); Ezekiel 38:22;

Interesting it is used 7 times......a number which is usually considered a "divine" in the Bible

G2303
θεῖον (theion), occurs 7 times in 7 verses
2303.
theion thi'-on probably neuter of 2304 (in its original sense of flashing); sulphur:--brimstone. [2304. theios thi'-os from 2316; godlike (neuter as noun, divinity): - divine, godhead.][2316. theos theh'-os of uncertain affinity; a deity, especially (with 3588) the supreme Divinity; figuratively, a magistrate; by Hebraism, very:--X exceeding, God, god(-ly, -ward).]
Indeed........


Is the "GEHENNA" of Matt 23:33 the "LAKE OF FIRE" in Revelation? Poll thread

Jer 9:7

Therefore thus says the LORD of hosts:
“Behold, I will refine them and try them;
For how shall I deal with the daughter of My people?

Dan 11:35
“And some of those of understanding shall fall, to refine them, purify them, and make them white, until the time of the end; because it is still for the appointed time.

Zec 13:9
I will bring the one-third through the fire,
Will refine them as silver is refined,
And test them as gold is tested.
They will call on My name, And I will answer them.
I will say, ‘This is My people'; And each one will say, ‘The LORD is my God.' ”

EZEKIEL 22 "GATHER HOUSE OF ISRAEL INTO JERUSALEM TO MELT IN FURNACE/GEHENNA/LAKE OF FIRE"

Ezekiel 22:
17 And there is a word of Yahweh unto me, saying, ‘Son of adam!18 The House of Israel hath been to Me for dross, All of them [are] brass, and tin, and iron, and lead, In the midst of a furnace — dross hath silver been,
19 Therefore, thus said Adonay Yahweh: Because of your all becoming dross, Therefore, behold!
I am gathering you unto the midst of Jerusalem,
20 A gathering of silver, and brass, and iron, and lead, and tin, Unto the midst of a furnaceto blow on it fire, to melt it,
So do I gather in Mine anger and in My fury, And I have let rest, and have melted you.
21 And I have heaped you up, And blown on you in the fire of My wrath<5678>, And ye have been melted<5413> in its midst.
22 As the melting of silver in the midst of a furnace, So are ye melted in its midst,
And ye have known that I, Yahweh, I have poured out My fury<2534> upon you.’
=================
Mal 3:3
He will sit as a refiner
and purifier of silver; he will purify the Levites and refine them like gold and silver.
Then the LORD will have men who will bring offerings in righteousness,
=====================
Mat 13:42
“and will cast them into the furnace of fire. There will be wailing and gnashing of teeth.

G1067 (YLT)
G1067
γέεννα (geenna) occurs 12 times in 12 verses

Matthew 23:33
`Serpents! brood/gennhmata <1081> of vipers!
how ye may be fleeing from the judging of the Gehenna?

 
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LittleLambofJesus

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12 times Jesus uses this word translated 'hell', to described the final judgment of the children of perdition. I studied the word several times and apparently it was an actual valley that was used as a trash dump. The fire never went out and it was the site of one of the niat horrific sacrifices commited by Israel at the height of their apostasy. They would lay an infant on the altar, plunge a knife in it's heart, and cast it into the flames.

Jerusalem under seige went through a hellish ordeal, but it wasn't Gehenna. Gehenna is the lake of fire where the body and soul of the children of perdition are ultimately destroyed. Hell is a place where disembodied spirits wait for final judgment. They are close to the flames perhaps floating above, or situated on the shoreline some where.
Hello mark
Perhaps you may be interested in this other thread I started concerning that.....

GEHENNA<G1067> "Lake of Fire" "Valley of Hinnon/Slaughter" 1st century Judea/Jerusalem


Since becoming of the view that the destruction of 1st century Jerusalem and the OC Temple was being symbolized as the Great City in Revelation, I decided to delve into the word Jesus used when speaking to the Judean Rulers in Matthew 23. [The Matt 24 Jerusalem/Temple discourse immediately follows it]

Our Lord mentions the phrase "son of gehenna" and one that I had never really looked closely at until just recently, which is referenced in the Hebrew OT.

Genesis 1:1 (YLT)
G1067
γέεννα (geenna), occurs 12 times in 12 verses

Matthew 23:
15 'Woe to ye Scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites!
That ye are going about the sea and the dry to make one proselyte, and whenever he may be becoming,ye are making him a son of gehenna twofold more of yourselves.
33 "Serpents! brood of vipers!
how? ye may be fleeing from the judging<2920> of the Gehenna/
===============================
Below I put up some links as well as a few maps concerning Gehenna/Valley of Hinnon

Hinnom, Valley Of Definition and Meaning - Bible Dictionary

The meaning of "Hinnom" is unknown; the expressions ben Hinnom and bene Hinnom would suggest that it is a proper name; in Jeremiah 7:32; 19:6 it is altered by the prophet to "valley of slaughter," and therefore some have thought the original name must have had a pleasing meaning.

The Valley of Hinnom has been located by different writers in each of the three great valleys of Jerusalem. In favor of the eastern or Kidron valley we have the facts that Eusebius and Jerome (Onom) place "Gehennom" under the eastern wall of Jerusalem and the Moslem geographical writers, Muqaddasi and Nasir-i-khusran, call the Kidron valley Wady Jahamum. The Jewish writer Kimchi also identifies the Valley of Jehoshaphat (i.e. the Kidron) with Hinnom. These ideas are probably due to the identification of the eastern valley, on account of its propinquity to the Temple, as the scene of the last judgment--the "Valley of Jehoshaphat" of Joel 3:2--and the consequent transference there of the scene of the punishment of the wicked, Gehenna, after the ancient geographical position of the Valley of Hinnom, had long been lost. In selecting sacred sites, from the 4th Christian century onward, no critical topographical acumen has been displayed until quite modern times. There are three amply sufficient arguments against this view:

(1) the Kidron valley is always called a nachal and not a gay' (see KIDRON); (2) the "Gate of the Gai" clearly did not lie to the East of the city; (3) En-rogel, which lay at the beginning of the Valley of Hinnom and to its East (Joshua 15:8; 18:16) cannot be the "Virgin's fount," the ancient Gihon (2 Samuel 17:17).

Encyclopedias - International Standard Bible Encyclopedia - Hinnom, Valley Of
HINNOM, VALLEY OF

hin'-om (ge hinnom, Joshua 15:8; 18:16; "valley of the son of Hinnom" (ge bhen hinnom), Joshua 15:8; 18:16; 2 Chronicles 28:3; 33:6; Jeremiah 7:31; 19:2,6; 32:35; "valley of the children (sons) of Hinnom" (ge bhene hinnom), 2 Kings 23:10; or simply "the valley," literally, the "hollow" or "ravine" (ha-gay'), 2 Chronicles 26:9; Nehemiah 2:13,15; 3:13; Jeremiah 31:40 and, perhaps also, Jeremiah 2:23 (the above references are in the Hebrew text; there are some variations in the Septuagint)):

The meaning of "Hinnom" is unknown; the expressions ben Hinnom and bene Hinnom would suggest that it is a proper name; in Jeremiah 7:32; 19:6 it is altered by the prophet to "valley of slaughter," and therefore some have thought the original name must have had a pleasing meaning.

The exact location of the Valley of Hinnom is disputed. Older commentaries give the location as below the southern wall of ancient Jerusalem, stretching from the foot of Mount Zion eastward past the Tyropoeon to the Kidron Valley. However the Tyropoeon Valley is usually no longer associated with the Valley of Hinnom because during the period of Ahaz and Manasseh, the Tyropoeon lay within the city walls and child sacrifice would have been practiced outside the walls of the city. Smith (1907),[7] Dalman (1930),[8] Bailey (1986)[9] and Watson (1992)[10] identify the Wadi ar-Rababi, which fits the description of Joshua that Hinnom valley ran east to west and lay outside the city walls. According to Joshua, the valley began at En-rogel. If the modern Bir Ayyub is En-rogel, then Wadi ar-Rababi, which begins there, is Hinnom.[11]
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Jerusalem's Hinnom Valley

Jerusalem's Hinnom Valley marked the western and southern edges of Jerusalem, beginning along the Western Hill and ending where the Tyropean and Kidron Valleys meet. In the Old Testament, it was often the site where people of Judah sacrificed their children to Baal (2 Kings 23:20; 2 Chron. 28:3,4; Jer. 7:31; 19:5, 6; 32:35).

By Jesus' time, the Greek translation of Hinnom Valley, gehenna, became a synonym for hell. Thus the English versions of the Bible translate "Valley of Hinnom" in the New Testament as "hell." With its pagan history and its burning sewer stench, Jerusalem's Hinnom Valley serves as a vivid metaphor for both the Christian and Jewish concept of hell

King Manasseh of Judah added to the negative reputation of the Hinnom Valley by sacrificing some of his own sons in Baal worship there (2 Chron. 33:6). He also practiced sorcery and witchcraft in defiance of God's law. King Josiah, Manasseh's grandson, later destroyed many of these pagan structures and practices. But by that time, Israel was so involved in paganism that God's judgment soon fell upon the people.

Jerusalem's Hinnom Valley also became the perpetual burning-garbage dump and city sewer. Residents sometimes called it the "valley of the sewer" or "the valley of the pagans."
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