Are the conditional promises of the old covenant still in effect?

claninja · Aug 5, 2019

The old covenant was an agreement between 2 parties: the nation of Israel and God. The nation of Israel had their part of the covenant to uphold and God had His part of the old covenant to uphold. (This was unlike the Abrahamic covenant where only God promised to uphold His side of the agreement).

If Israel obeyed all 613 commandments of the law of Moses, God would bless them (Deuteronomy 28:1-14).

If Israel did not obey all 613 commandments of the law of Moses, God would curse them (Deuteronomy 29:15-68).

After the blessings and curses had been poured out, If Israel turned back to God, then He would restore them from captivity and bring them back to the land (Deuteronomy 30:1-5).

Thus, it appears the agreement for God to uphold his side of the covenant was conditional upon Israel's obedience to the law of Moses.

However, God found fault with the old covenant on the side of the people. The fault being that Israel could not keep their side of the agreement (Hebrews 8:7-8).

Thus revealing the intention of the old covenant agreement between God and the nation of Israel was only until the time of Christ (Galatians 3:23, Hebrews 9:10) and that it was only a shadow of Christ (colossians 2:16-17, Hebrews 10:1) meant to expose sin and lead us to Him (romans 7:7, Galatians 3:24). It would be at the time of Christ, that the old covenant agreement between God and the nation of Israel would be taken away and made obsolete (Hebrews 8:13, Hebrews 10:9). This old covenant agreement was superseded by the new covenant through Jesus Christ and founded on better promises than the old covenant (Hebrews 8:6).

Now, since the old covenant agreement between the nation of Israel and God was made obsolete and superseded by the new covenant, which has better promises, are the conditional promises on God's side of the old covenant agreement still in effect?

yeshuaslavejeff · Aug 5, 2019

claninja said:
Now, since the old covenant agreement between the nation of Israel and God was made obsolete and superseded by the new covenant, which has better promises, are the conditional promises on God's side of the old covenant agreement still in effect?

Let's concentrate on one for an example.

Health.

Today, a lot of people are sick and dying because they don't do what TORAH says.

A few people may be seemingly miraculously in good health, not on any medicines at all,

because they do what TORAH says (they believe in Scripture and in the Power of God).

Some people get sick, even on their death beds, and turn to God, and start doing what is right, and not only recover their health, they remain well, healthy, the rest of their lives, even several decades.

Is all this because of God's Wonderful Grace, blessing their obedience to Him and to His Word, with faith,

or is it all because something else, or someone else, controls health and disease ?

claninja · Aug 5, 2019

yeshuaslavejeff said:
Let's concentrate on one for an example.

Health.

Today, a lot of people are sick and dying because they don't do what TORAH says.

A few people may be seemingly miraculously in good health, not on any medicines at all,

because they do what TORAH says (they believe in Scripture and in the Power of God).

Some people get sick, even on their death beds, and turn to God, and start doing what is right, and not only recover their health, they remain well, healthy, the rest of their lives, even several decades.

Is all this because of God's Wonderful Grace, blessing their obedience to Him and to His Word, with faith,

or is it all because something else, or someone else, controls health and disease ?

Was good health one of the conditional promises God would give Israel if they obeyed all 613 commandments under the old covenant agreement?

yeshuaslavejeff · Aug 5, 2019

claninja said:
Was good health one of the conditional promises God would give Israel if they obeyed all 613 commandments under the old covenant agreement?

Yes.

See: "None of these diseases" and "The curse causeless shall not come" .....

claninja · Aug 5, 2019

yeshuaslavejeff said:
Yes.

Which chapter/verse specifically states God would give good health to those who obey all 613 commandments of Moses under the old covenant? I can't seem to find that one.

yeshuaslavejeff · Aug 5, 2019

yeshuaslavejeff said:
See: "None of these diseases" and "The curse causeless shall not come" .....

Sorry, I don't know the references....

claninja · Aug 5, 2019

yeshuaslavejeff said:
Sorry, I don't know the references....

yeshuaslavejeff said:
See: "None of these diseases" and "The curse causeless shall not come" .....

God only promised that if Israel obeyed, He would not bring upon Israel any diseases that He inflicted upon the EGYPTIANS.

exodus 15:26 saying, “If you will listen carefully to the voice of the LORD your God, and do what is right in His eyes, and pay attention to His commands, and keep all His statutes, then I will not bring on you any of the diseases I inflicted on the Egyptians.

I still cannot find any exact OT scriptures that states if Israel obeyed the old covenant they would remain in good health.

yeshuaslavejeff · Aug 5, 2019

claninja said:
God only promised that if Israel obeyed, He would not bring upon Israel any diseases that He inflicted upon the EGYPTIANS.

exodus 15:26 saying, “If you will listen carefully to the voice of the LORD your God, and do what is right in His eyes, and pay attention to His commands, and keep all His statutes, then I will not bring on you any of the diseases I inflicted on the Egyptians.

I still cannot find any exact OT scriptures that states if Israel obeyed the old covenant they would remain in good health.

Keep seeking - it looks like you are on the right track....

(hint) How many sandals wore out while they were in the wilderness for forty years, before entering the Promised land ?

claninja · Aug 5, 2019

yeshuaslavejeff said:
Keep seeking - it looks like you are on the right track....

(hint) How many sandals wore out while they were in the wilderness for forty years, before entering the Promised land ?

So you concede that good health is not one of the promises on God's part to the nation of Israel under the old covenant agreement?

If the promise of good health was found in the old covenant and was still in effect today, why do Christians still have cancer or blindness or heat attacks or strokes or etc..... today?

yeshuaslavejeff · Aug 5, 2019

claninja said:
So you concede that good health is not one of the promises on God's part to the nation of Israel under the old covenant agreement?

If the promise of good health was found in the old covenant and was still in effect today, why do Christians still have cancer or blindness or heat attacks or strokes or etc..... today?

No, I don't concede anything, not in any post in this thread, nor in any thought in my mind, nor in my heart.

Christians still have cancer or blindness or heat attacks or strokes or etc .....
because they live in continual sin .....
"For lack of (experiential true) knowledge in Christ Jesus, MY PEOPLE PERISH" , just as they did ("there are many sick and dying")
as recorded in Corinthians.

mkgal1 · Aug 5, 2019

yeshuaslavejeff said:
Yes.

See: "None of these diseases" and "The curse causeless shall not come" .....

yeshuaslavejeff said:
Sorry, I don't know the references....

Jeff - are you referring to the plagues brought on the Egyptians and how the Israelites would have been spared?

Exodus 15:26 ~ “If you will listen carefully to the voice of the LORD your God, and do what is right in His eyes, and pay attention to His commands, and keep all His statutes, then I will not bring on you any of the diseases I inflicted on the Egyptians. For I am the LORD who heals you.”

yeshuaslavejeff · Aug 5, 2019

mkgal1 said:
Jeff - are you referring to the plagues brought on the Egyptians and how the Israelites would have been spared?

Exodus 15:26 ~ “If you will listen carefully to the voice of the LORD your God, and do what is right in His eyes, and pay attention to His commands, and keep all His statutes, then I will not bring on you any of the diseases I inflicted on the Egyptians. For I am the LORD who heals you.”

No. Bigger picture than that.

mkgal1 · Aug 5, 2019

yeshuaslavejeff said:
No. Bigger picture than that.

That's the only reference I knew of.

Greengardener · Aug 5, 2019

I wonder if Jeff is sharing a picture that seems to be supported by Scripture that God laid out many points which if followed would lead to a healthier chance at life as well as several places where it is written that a man can live by the word(s) of God. It seems the blessings would overtake them if they were obedient and if they weren't, the curses (of their own behavior) would overtake them. Some of the dietary laws stated to avoid unclean meats and the blood and fat of clean meats. It really could be that by following the recommendation, whether kept as a "law" or not, could influence health and perhaps that was the reason it was written for us by God in the first place. So it doesn't have to be taken as a 613 points do it or be guilty kind of thing. It could be taken as God's best recommendations for life, and although we don't have opportunity or necessity to keep some of those points (or do we?), we still live best when we live closest to what God tells us.

Maybe we don't participate in animal sacrifices, but we do recognize the greatest sacrifice and we know that we ourselves are called to pick up our crosses and follow Jesus. So the intent of the sacrifices carries on even now.

Maybe we don't worry about mixed fabrics and intermingled fields, but we still know that there are things that need to be divided out and separated between what is and what seems. So the lessons and intent of many laws are still carried on even now.

Some of those rules made a whole lot of sense in the public health arena to keep down the spread of diseases while it was being determined whether the situation was short-lived or what might start an epidemic. They use those same principles today in isolations when there is a social risk.

You are absolutely right that people missed the mark with those laws, and in addition, people who were out for themselves instead of having integrity and good judgement came into having power over others through those laws. Still, when you see what God writes on our hearts as His dear children, it actually looks amazingly like those old testament principles. Not the actions perhaps, but the principles/intents behind the behaviors. That reassures me that God didn't waste words on mankind - He sent those words to have a desired effect.

All the NT believers I know will quickly sing "Trust and Obey," that old hymn, even though most of them go out for a pork hot dog after eating lard laden ham biscuits in the Sunday morning meet and greet. I find it telling when their increasing obesity becomes metabolic syndrome that turns into diabetes with heart failure, kidney failure, dialysis with pork and blood derived drugs in order to stay alive a little longer. I think Jeff was addressing that God really didn't want us to go through that so He provided guidelines that would work for people in general, whether back then or now. Maybe if we look we can find some principles for the environmental influences on health, but the one that comes to mind is the Woe to him who builds city against city...

SkyWriting · Aug 5, 2019

yeshuaslavejeff said:
Let's concentrate on one for an example.

Health.

Today, a lot of people are sick and dying because they don't do what TORAH says.

A few people may be seemingly miraculously in good health, not on any medicines at all,

because they do what TORAH says (they believe in Scripture and in the Power of God).

Some people get sick, even on their death beds, and turn to God, and start doing what is right, and not only recover their health, they remain well, healthy, the rest of their lives, even several decades.

Is all this because of God's Wonderful Grace, blessing their obedience to Him and to His Word, with faith,

or is it all because something else, or someone else, controls health and disease ?

God can only heal through the Holy Spirit. God cannot physically resurrect people who have been beheaded.

SkyWriting · Aug 5, 2019

claninja said:
Which chapter/verse specifically states God would give good health to those who obey all 613 commandments of Moses under the old covenant? I can't seem to find that one.

Good health...as in hearts stoppingly dead bodies.

Hebrews 9:27
And just as it is appointed for man to die once, and after that comes judgment,

SkyWriting · Aug 5, 2019

claninja said:
So you concede that good health is not one of the promises on God's part to the nation of Israel under the old covenant agreement?

If the promise of good health was found in the old covenant and was still in effect today, why do Christians still have cancer or blindness or heat attacks or strokes or etc..... today?

Or death?

SkyWriting · Aug 5, 2019

yeshuaslavejeff said:
Sorry, I don't know the references....

Here ya go:

https://www.openbible.info/topics/good_health

JIMINZ · Aug 5, 2019

claninja said:
So you concede that good health is not one of the promises on God's part to the nation of Israel under the old covenant agreement?

If the promise of good health was found in the old covenant and was still in effect today, why do Christians still have cancer or blindness or heat attacks or strokes or etc..... today?

Why bring Christians into the Question about Gods' Covenant between Israel and God?

claninja · Aug 6, 2019

yeshuaslavejeff said:
No, I don't concede anything, not in any post in this thread, nor in any thought in my mind, nor in my heart.

Gotcha. Sorry I think I was a little confused when you stated I was on the right track in regards to my statement.

So we notice that God promised not to bring any diseases on the Israelites that he brought upon the Egyptians, if they obeyed his statutes.

Exodus 15:26 saying, “If you will listen carefully to the voice of the LORD your God, and do what is right in His eyes, and pay attention to His commands, and keep all His statutes, then I will not bring on you any of the diseases I inflicted on the Egyptians. For I am the LORD who heals you.”

However, I think I found what you were talking about, to which I concede: the promise of good health if they followed the law of moses. In other words, if they followed the law, God would take away their sicknesses.

I think this possibly might be the verses you are referring to? I found 2 verses in the law that refer to God taking away sickness if they keep the commands of God:

Exodus 23:25-26 You shall serve the Lord your God, and he will bless your bread and your water, and I will take sickness away from among you. None shall miscarry or be barren in your land; I will fulfill the number of your days.

Deuteronomy 7:12-15 And because you listen to these rules and keep and do them, the Lord your God will keep with you the covenant and the steadfast love that he swore to your fathers. He will love you, bless you, and multiply you. He will also bless the fruit of your womb and the fruit of your ground, your grain and your wine and your oil, the increase of your herds and the young of your flock, in the land that he swore to your fathers to give you. You shall be blessed above all peoples. There shall not be male or female barren among you or among your livestock. And the Lord will take away from you all sickness, and none of the evil diseases of Egypt, which you knew, will he inflict on you, but he will lay them on all who hate you.

So, is this agreement still in effect today. If Israel follows the law, God will take away their sicknesses? Or has the promise of good health been transferred over to the new covenant?

yeshuaslavejeff said:
Christians still have cancer or blindness or heat attacks or strokes or etc .....
because they live in continual sin .....
"For lack of (experiential true) knowledge in Christ Jesus, MY PEOPLE PERISH" , just as they did ("there are many sick and dying")
as recorded in Corinthians.

I'm not saying there are not consequences to having a poor diet or unhealthy lifestyle. However, you appear to believe that physical blindness and physical cancer are related to "lack of knowledge in Christ"?

Are the conditional promises of the old covenant still in effect?

Are the conditional promises of the old covenant still in effect?

yes

no

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His perfect way sets me free. 2 Samuel 22:33

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