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So then it’s not His sheep that hear and follow.
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Soterilosity - A person can lose salvation
- Thread starter Matthew ten Verseight
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No, that can’t be.
You have not yet resisted to the point of shedding blood in your striving against sin; and you have forgotten the exhortation which is addressed to you as sons,
“My son, do not regard lightly the discipline of the Lord,
Nor faint when you are reproved by Him; For those whom the Lord loves He disciplines,
And He scourges every son whom He receives.” It is for discipline that you endure; God deals with you as with sons; for what son is there whom his father does not discipline? But if you are without discipline, of which all have become partakers, then you are illegitimate children and not sons. Furthermore, we had earthly fathers to discipline us, and we respected them; shall we not much rather be subject to the Father of spirits, and live? For they disciplined us for a short time as seemed best to them, but He disciplines us for our good, so that we may share His holiness. All discipline for the moment seems not to be joyful, but sorrowful; yet to those who have been trained by it, afterwards it yields the peaceful fruit of righteousness.
— Hebrews 12:4-11
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Jesus said His sheep hear His voice. You said hearing comes first. So if you aren’t a sheep when you first hear, then what are you?
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Actually it can be John 15:2 The Father cuts off every branch in Christ that does not bear fruit. John 15:6 anyone who does not abide in Christ is cast away to wither and cast in the fire to be burned. How can someone fail to abide (remain or stay) in Christ if they are kept by The Father? How can The Father cut off branches who are in Christ if they are kept by The Father. No one is kept by The Father against their will. Only thru cooperation can we be kept by The Father.
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You didn’t answer the question. No one has faith before hearing the gospel. No one can receive grace before hearing the gospel. No one can receive the Holy Spirit before hearing the gospel. Just because Jesus says His sheep hear and follow doesn’t mean they were His sheep before they heard the gospel. He is speaking in the present tense. His sheep continue to hear and follow.
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Now you are starting to see the error in your theology. When you deny that God disciplines those He loves, and then try to say that He condemns those He has adopted and made righteous, you are in scary territory.
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I think you are starting to get it. Those who hear and follow are His sheep. The ones who have faith are the ones who hear and follow. To contrast, Jesus even explained why some don’t hear and follow. It’s because they are not His sheep. So hearing and following don’t make someone His sheep. Those who are His sheep hear and follow.
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But I noticed that you won’t address the scriptures I provided. Your just making an empty claim but not backing it up with any scriptural evidence.
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Let’s examine what He actually said a little closer.
“Jesus answered them, "I told you, and you do not believe; the works that I do in My Father's name, these testify of Me. But you do not believe because you are not of My sheep.”
John 10:25-26 NASB
These people have already been told and they do not hear and follow. That’s why they are not His sheep.
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I have addressed those. I’ve shown how your understanding must be in error.
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Which is why I cannot figure out why you think He’s saying the opposite of what you claim. He didn’t say that they weren’t His sheep because they didn’t hear and believe.
But you do not believe because you are not of My sheep.
He gave the cause of their unbelief.
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The Greek word used is gar G1063 which is a primary particle; properly, assigning a reason (used in argument, explanation or intensification; often with other particles):--and, as, because (that), but, even, for, indeed, no doubt, seeing, then, therefore, verily, what, why, yet.
Your logic is not making sense my friend. His sheep hear and follow. How can they be His sheep if they have not heard and followed? Your saying that a person is His sheep before they have heard and have not followed. The proper context would be the word therefore. They have not believed therefore they are not one of His sheep.
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Do you believe in predestination? Because that’s what your implying by saying people are His sheep before hearing the gospel.
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Of course they are sheep before they hear. He didn’t say you become a sheep when you hear and follow, which is the argument you are making.
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So then if they should stop hearing and following they are still His sheep?
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