Predestination

redleghunter said:

I think “whosoever believes in Him” is actually in that passage.

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In that particular passage, that is indeed the case as belief is a requisite for salvation but the fact remains that the concept of election entails that despite the fact that the scripture states that God so loved the world, he elects some while others be damned. Those who are damned have no choice in the matter because it is God whom elects to eternal life.

Oldmantook said:

In that particular passage, that is indeed the case as belief is a requisite for salvation but the fact remains that the concept of election entails that despite the fact that the scripture states that God so loved the world, he elects some while others be damned. Those who are damned have no choice in the matter because it is God whom elects to eternal life.

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At what point in the “process” does God get a vote?

redleghunter said:

At what point in the “process” does God get a vote?

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Do you understand what predestination means from a Reformed stance? It is not a process. God has the entire vote. He elects whom he will elect. No one else has any other say in the matter.

Oldmantook said:

Do you understand what predestination means from a Reformed stance? It is not a process. God has the entire vote. He elects whom he will elect. No one else has any other say in the matter.

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Election is Biblical. That’s the obvious observation. Us railing against it and God’s Sovereignty is futile.

Job 33:12-13 “Behold, in this you are not right. I will answer you, for God is greater than man. Why do you contend against him, saying, ‘He will answer none of man’s words’?

Isa 29:16 You turn things upside down! Shall the potter be regarded as the clay, that the thing made should say of its maker, “He did not make me”; or the thing formed say of him who formed it, “He has no under- standing”?

Isa 45:9-10 “Woe to him who strives with him who formed him, a pot among earthen pots! Does the clay say to him who forms it, ‘What are you making?’ or ‘Your work has no handles’? Woe to him who says to a father, ‘What are you begetting?’ or to a woman, ‘With what are you in labor?’”

redleghunter said:

Election is Biblical. That’s the obvious observation. Us railing against it and God’s Sovereignty is futile.

Job 33:12-13 “Behold, in this you are not right. I will answer you, for God is greater than man. Why do you contend against him, saying, ‘He will answer none of man’s words’?

Isa 29:16 You turn things upside down! Shall the potter be regarded as the clay, that the thing made should say of its maker, “He did not make me”; or the thing formed say of him who formed it, “He has no under- standing”?

Isa 45:9-10 “Woe to him who strives with him who formed him, a pot among earthen pots! Does the clay say to him who forms it, ‘What are you making?’ or ‘Your work has no handles’? Woe to him who says to a father, ‘What are you begetting?’ or to a woman, ‘With what are you in labor?’”

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Why do you presume that I'm railing against God? I'm just restating what Calvinists already hold to.

Oldmantook said:

Why do you presume that I'm railing against God? I'm just restating what Calvinists already hold to.

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Reformed doctrine on election and predestination is Biblical. It’s what we would call observable.

Ephesians 1: NASB

3Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, 4just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him. In love 5He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will,6to the praise of the glory of His grace, which He freely bestowed on us in the Beloved. 7In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of His grace 8which He lavished on us. In all wisdom and insight 9He made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His kind intention which He purposed in Him 10with a view to an administration suitable to the fullness of the times, that is, the summing up of all things in Christ, things in the heavens and things on the earth. In Him 11also we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will, 12to the end that we who were the first to hope in Christ would be to the praise of His glory. 13In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of God’s own possession, to the praise of His glory.

redleghunter said:

Reformed doctrine on election and predestination is Biblical. It’s what we would call observable.

Ephesians 1: NASB

3Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, 4just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him. In love 5He predestined us to adoption as sons through Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the kind intention of His will,6to the praise of the glory of His grace, which He freely bestowed on us in the Beloved. 7In Him we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of our trespasses, according to the riches of His grace 8which He lavished on us. In all wisdom and insight 9He made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His kind intention which He purposed in Him 10with a view to an administration suitable to the fullness of the times, that is, the summing up of all things in Christ, things in the heavens and things on the earth. In Him 11also we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will, 12to the end that we who were the first to hope in Christ would be to the praise of His glory. 13In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of God’s own possession, to the praise of His glory.

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Observable? You interpret scriptures in light of your systematic theology. How do explain election in terms of God's loving the whole world? He loves the whole world but he chooses only some. In love he elects some and in love he passes over others. Those whom he doesn't elect...oh well, tough luck but God still loves you.

Albion said:

Not at all. I merely commented on your post in which you said that God chose on the basis of what he saw in the person. If his decision comes after seeing something in the person or done by the person, that wouldn't be predestination, which I understood you to believe in.

As for myself, I neither expressed a belief in predestination nor rejected it.

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Albion God does choose on the basis of something. The God is not merely a force with no feelings at all. I wonder what that could be. Jeremiah 31:3 does sum up very nicely I think ( The Lord hath appeared of old unto me, saying, Yes, I have loved you with an everlasting love: therefore with lovingkindess have I drawn thee.) so God does choose on the basis of who he loves. All I said is God liked what he saw. And you seem not to like the idea of God liking people whenever he chooses. Gods love for his people does not change be that past, present or future to those he did predestinate. You say you have not expressed a belief in predestination either way. Well maybe you haven’t for we not know much about what the Albion believes.

Snoder said:

Calvinism teaches that you aren't saved for any reason other than randomness.

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John Calvin did teach on so many things. But with His beliefs about a God who randomly picks and chooses on the spur of the moment that was never one of his beliefs.

Jonaitis said:

Just to let everyone understand here, whenever Scripture uses the word 'foreknowledge' or 'foreknew' it always refers to an individual, not their actions. When God said that he foreknew us, it means that he has known us intimately before we were born. In one of the epistles of John, the apostle says it in another way, "We love because he first loved us" (1 John 4:19). This is what 'foreknowledge' means, a personal knowledge of his people beforehand.

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I have no issue with God’s foreknowledge of every detail of every human being who has lived and will live.

Is it “beforehand” for God at the end of time, because that is the same God in existence at the beginning of time and God is outside of time?

Jonaitis said:

I think people are equating 'foreknowledge' with 'foresight.' These are not the same thing.

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Agree

Jonaitis said:

I didn't understand your question, could you rephrase it?

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You say: “then that isn't predestination”, seemingly because I said: “God predestined to save all those who accept His charity from the beginning of time”, but do not give a Biblical definition of predestine which would make my statement false?

Snoder said:

Calvinism teaches that you aren't saved for any reason other than randomness.

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Kate30 said:

...a God who randomly picks and chooses on the spur of the moment that was never one of his beliefs.

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Oh no. If God makes a choice, there is no reason to think he does it randomly.

WHY he chooses those whom he does is--according to a Calvinist--not clear to us mortals nor is there any reason that it should be, but it is not thought that God simply runs some sort of celestial lottery.

Snoder said:

A god of predestination sounds monstrous.

Here is the run down. God creates humans, who being spiritual and material are doomed to failure. Eventually someone is going to sin. Sin inevitably enters the world, now everyone is guilty, and everyone deserves hell.

Now everyone deserves hell, because we are sinners, despite the fact we never made a free choice!

So now god being random and proving he is the boss, because god is petty like that, I guess, makes salvation available for people. But all people are bad, so instead of saving everyone, god decides to save some people to prove that he is the boss. Because in this view of god, that is the only way to reconcile why some people deny god.

If that does not make sense to you, it shouldn't, but that is predestination theology without all the apologetics and games.

People will argue that allowing people to freely choose salvation diminishes the power of God. The power of God to do what, cruel stuff that makes not a bit of sense?

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This! Snoder so far is one of the few people who actually get it

Kate30 said:

Albion God does choose on the basis of something.

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...and, according to people who believe that the Bible teaches predestination, that choice is made before the birth of the person involved. If it were made after God knew how that person performed, it wouldn't be predestination. By definition, it would not be.

That's all there was to this little point that has already occupied too much space here.

Rawtheran said:

This! Snoder so far is one of the few people who actually get this

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Au contraire. Almost everyone gets that.

That view of God is, however, held and taught by almost no Christians. Therefore, it's easy to condemn it if it has no application to the Christian religion.

ilovejcsog said:

That takes away 'choice'.

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Sinners only have one choice...to sin. We are sinners by nature and choice.

Jonaitis said:

I agree that in order for God to predestine some individuals to eternal life and others to eternal damnation, then he must have predestined Adam to fall. However, I don't agree that this makes God the author of evil. He can predestine the event to happen, but he doesn't have to be responsible for the creature's actions.



If Jesus died for all individuals, then there will be no one in hell. You must believe in some sort of limited atonement, that only those who believe and repent are saved. Jesus did not die for an anonymous group, hoping that one day they will receive him.

Yes, we did have "free will" prior to the fall, not after. Once we plunged into a state of sin and death, our will was enslaved to our corrupt desires. We are naturally corrupt in our choices, and we do not willingly want to receive Jesus. We need the divine act of regeneration to bring us from spiritual death to spiritual life and behold him as he is under the faithful preaching of his gospel. Without regeneration, we would never understand or believe the gospel.



This is the charge of the atheist who cannot accept the concept of an actual hell, where many will suffer for all eternity in punishment for their sin.

This is the charge of the atheist who misreads the biblical histories and prophets, and looks at God as a hot-tempered, sadistic, emotionally-driven monster.

If you actually study this, you will realize how unfitting such a description is for God.

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1. How does this not make God the author of evil? The very definition of predestine means that God has created an inescapable outcome or fate based on his own purposes and thoughts and you don't have any choice or say so in the matter. God choose you to go to Hell? Sorry buddy there's nothing you can do about it! This also does make God the author of evil because that means when he created the world he also programmed Lucifer to turn evil and that he also programmed mankind to choose to do evil. Under predestination God is nothing but a game master.
2. God did die for all people John 3:16, 2 Corinthians 5:15, and John 12:32 say it outright. And sir I have to ask what is going through your mind right now to think that I believe in limited atonement? Where specifically in my previous posts did I ever state that God only died for a select few individuals or that God was going to save anyone? I never once said any of this. Jesus died for all people to have the choice to walk the narrow road, to choose salvation. Yes, God does not send anyone to Hell, but people do choose to go there.
3. Even in a perfect state where original sin did not exist Adam and Eve had free will. Even before the creation of the Earth angels had free will. Lucifer consciously and of sound mind choose to rebel against the love of God and all of the angels who backed him made the same choice. Adam and Eve choose with their own free will to eat the forbidden fruit. Like I said in my previous post the only type of world where love is possible is one in which free will exists otherwise we would all be robots.
4. Let me define "Atheism" for you. Atheism is the belief that man is God. An Atheist denies the inescapable truths of Hell and Heaven because they don't want to have to be held accountable by a supreme creator. There are also Atheists who try and deny God's existence because they are angry and hurt not realizing how much he loves them. I agree with you that God is not a sadistic monster but Calvinism which was created by a man and not God does portray God as a sick monster. And quite frankly I'll be honest. If someone is actually comfortable with the fact that God does preordain some to Heaven and others to Hell and he was the very cause of all of the sinful things to have ever happened in the world then I don't think these people truly know God. They are creating the type of God they want to exist.

Albion said:

Au contraire. Almost everyone gets that.

That view of God is, however, held and taught by almost no Christians. Therefore, it's easy to condemn it if it has no application to the Christian religion.

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Calvinism and Augustinianism is a minority among the entirety of Christendom. I'd recheck your facts buddy

Peter J Barban said:

I believe in double predestination.

"Choose" is not the best word because it implies action after the objects exist.

God creates some people to be objects of wrath and others to be objects of mercy.

Though, we could say that God chooses what kind of vessel we are before he creates us.

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How can you honestly be comfortable worshipping a God who does this? I guess it doesn't matter does it as long as your chosen huh? Screw everyone else....

Rawtheran said:

Calvinism and Augustinianism is a minority among the entirety of Christendom. I'd recheck your facts buddy

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Sure, it is a minority--a minority whose best-known belief has been misrepresented here. That it is a minority didn't deter some posters from opining about it; it's just that they did not get their facts correct.

Rawtheran said:

How can you honestly be comfortable worshipping a God who does this? I guess it doesn't matter does it as long as your chosen huh? Screw everyone else....

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I guess I don't have any other choice

More seriously, I didn't promote this idea because I like it or it matches my experience. Double predestination best fits the revelation of God in the Bible. Thus, I must follow the data wherever it leads.