How would you describe saving faith vs just "faith"?
- Thread starter zoidar
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I wouldn't make a distinction in the same way.
Faith is faith. Faith only saves if more than faith is attached to it. Which makes it faith, and works. One can have faith, even a deep, prayerful, trusting, theologically penetrating faith, and still treat people like crud, cheat on your wife, plagiarize, and covet.
We all sin. This is why it helps me to see salvation as a journey of faith and of works.
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Yes. One could have the greatest knowledge of God’s Divine plan to redeem mankind but not have their heart of stone removed for a heart of flesh. Only God can regenerate a soul leading us to repentance and eternal life.
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Guojing
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People who want to reconcile Paul with James are the ones that introduce terms like "saving faith".
For me, I rather take James literally, instead of assuming that James was such a bad communicator that he will need me to explain what he REALLY meant.
Thus, I would say that he believe that faith without works is dead, that means believing in Jesus is not sufficient for justification. You need to do works to be justified. James does not need me to explain anything other than the literal meaning of those words.
Don't try to reconcile the 2. Instead, James is writing to the Jews, while Paul is writing to the Gentiles. In Acts 21, it is clearly written that James expected Jews who believe in Jesus to still be "zealous for the Law", while he is willing to exempt the Gentile believers.
18 And the day following Paul went in with us unto James; and all the elders were present.
19 And when he had saluted them, he declared particularly what things God had wrought among the Gentiles by his ministry.
20 And when they heard it, they glorified the Lord, and said unto him, Thou seest, brother, how many thousands of Jews there are which believe; and they are all zealous of the law:
21 And they are informed of thee, that thou teachest all the Jews which are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, saying that they ought not to circumcise their children, neither to walk after the customs.
22 What is it therefore? the multitude must needs come together: for they will hear that thou art come.
23 Do therefore this that we say to thee: We have four men which have a vow on them;
24 Them take, and purify thyself with them, and be at charges with them, that they may shave their heads: and all may know that those things, whereof they were informed concerning thee, are nothing; but that thou thyself also walkest orderly, and keepest the law.
25 As touching the Gentiles which believe, we have written and concluded that they observe no such thing, save only that they keep themselves from things offered to idols, and from blood, and from strangled, and from fornication.
So in that sense, they do not contradict each other, they are writing to different audience.
For me, I rather take James literally, instead of assuming that James was such a bad communicator that he will need me to explain what he REALLY meant.
Thus, I would say that he believe that faith without works is dead, that means believing in Jesus is not sufficient for justification. You need to do works to be justified. James does not need me to explain anything other than the literal meaning of those words.
Don't try to reconcile the 2. Instead, James is writing to the Jews, while Paul is writing to the Gentiles. In Acts 21, it is clearly written that James expected Jews who believe in Jesus to still be "zealous for the Law", while he is willing to exempt the Gentile believers.
18 And the day following Paul went in with us unto James; and all the elders were present.
19 And when he had saluted them, he declared particularly what things God had wrought among the Gentiles by his ministry.
20 And when they heard it, they glorified the Lord, and said unto him, Thou seest, brother, how many thousands of Jews there are which believe; and they are all zealous of the law:
21 And they are informed of thee, that thou teachest all the Jews which are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, saying that they ought not to circumcise their children, neither to walk after the customs.
22 What is it therefore? the multitude must needs come together: for they will hear that thou art come.
23 Do therefore this that we say to thee: We have four men which have a vow on them;
24 Them take, and purify thyself with them, and be at charges with them, that they may shave their heads: and all may know that those things, whereof they were informed concerning thee, are nothing; but that thou thyself also walkest orderly, and keepest the law.
25 As touching the Gentiles which believe, we have written and concluded that they observe no such thing, save only that they keep themselves from things offered to idols, and from blood, and from strangled, and from fornication.
So in that sense, they do not contradict each other, they are writing to different audience.
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This sounds to me like James, that "saving faith" is acting on faith.
Heb 11
"By faith Abel offered to God a better sacrifice than Cain"
"By faith Noah, being warned by God about things not yet seen, in reverence prepared an ark for the salvation of his household, by which he condemned the world, and became an heir of the righteousness which is according to faith."
"By faith Moses, when he was born, was hidden for three months by his parents, because they saw he was a beautiful child; and they were not afraid of the king’s edict."
"By faith the walls of Jericho fell down after they had been encircled for seven days. By faith Rahab the harlot did not perish along with those who were disobedient, after she had welcomed the spies in peace."
Btw, sorry I got "CAN YOU LOSE YOUR SALVATION AND ETERNAL LIFE?" - thread closed. Don't know if you read what I posted, but I felt you were toying with me and I got emotional.
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The above is the observation. Why I posted that thread.
Good fruit only comes from a Good Tree.
Christ is the Just and Justifier. The just shall live by faith. Makes sense seeing Who the Just and Justifier is—Jesus.
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I have to say whatever thoughts the Jews who were Christians of law keeping, all that was destroyed by Rome in 70AD.
When it comes to the Gospel, there has only been one Gospel since the Resurrection and Ascension of Christ. Peter on two occasions confirms this after his encounters with Gentiles. In Acts 11 and Acts 15.
Acts 11: NASB
1Now the apostles and the brethren who were throughout Judea heard that the Gentiles also had received the word of God. 2And when Peter came up to Jerusalem, those who were circumcised took issue with him, 3saying, “You went to uncircumcised men and ate with them.”4But Peter began speaking and proceeded to explain to them in orderly sequence, saying, 5“I was in the city of Joppa praying; and in a trance I saw a vision, an object coming down like a great sheet lowered by four corners from the sky; and it came right down to me, 6and when I had fixed my gaze on it and was observing it I saw the four-footed animals of the earth and the wild beasts and the crawling creatures and the birds of the air.7“I also heard a voice saying to me, ‘Get up, Peter; kill and eat.’ 8“But I said, ‘By no means, Lord, for nothing unholy or unclean has ever entered my mouth.’9“But a voice from heaven answered a second time, ‘What God has cleansed, no longer consider unholy.’ 10“This happened three times, and everything was drawn back up into the sky. 11“And behold, at that moment three men appeared at the house in which we were staying, having been sent to me from Caesarea. 12“The Spirit told me to go with them without misgivings. These six brethren also went with me and we entered the man’s house. 13“And he reported to us how he had seen the angel standing in his house, and saying, ‘Send to Joppa and have Simon, who is also called Peter, brought here; 14and he will speak words to you by which you will be saved, you and all your household.’15“And as I began to speak, the Holy Spirit fell upon them just as He did upon us at the beginning. 16“And I remembered the word of the Lord, how He used to say, ‘John baptized with water, but you will be baptized with the Holy Spirit.’17“Therefore if God gave to them the same gift as He gave to us also after believing in the Lord Jesus Christ, who was I that I could stand in God’s way?”18When they heard this, they quieted down and glorified God, saying, “Well then, God has granted to the Gentiles also the repentance that leads to life.”
Acts 15: NASB
1Some men came down from Judea and began teaching the brethren, “Unless you are circumcised according to the custom of Moses, you cannot be saved.”2And when Paul and Barnabas had great dissension and debate with them, the brethren determined that Paul and Barnabas and some others of them should go up to Jerusalem to the apostles and elders concerning this issue.3Therefore, being sent on their way by the church, they were passing through both Phoenicia and Samaria, describing in detail the conversion of the Gentiles, and were bringing great joy to all the brethren. 4When they arrived at Jerusalem, they were received by the church and the apostles and the elders, and they reported all that God had done with them. 5But some of the sect of the Pharisees who had believed stood up, saying, “It is necessary to circumcise them and to direct them to observe the Law of Moses.”
6The apostles and the elders came together to look into this matter. 7After there had been much debate, Peter stood up and said to them, “Brethren, you know that in the early days God made a choice among you, that by my mouth the Gentiles would hear the word of the gospel and believe. 8“And God, who knows the heart, testified to them giving them the Holy Spirit, just as He also did to us; 9and He made no distinction between us and them, cleansing their hearts by faith. 10“Now therefore why do you put God to the test by placing upon the neck of the disciples a yoke which neither our fathers nor we have been able to bear?11“But we believe that we are saved through the grace of the Lord Jesus, in the same way as they also are.”
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How does a person then become a good tree? And how does a good tree become a bad tree? (you will probably say a good tree can't become a bad tree?)
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I would describe true living faith as essentially a deep trust in the person and works of Christ, as opposed to obedience. Obedience, upholding the law, is the fruit of faith, which is sanctification. Salvation, then, is entirely a gift from God, apart from works.
Merely intellectual faith, however, is not saving faith. That is, to simply acknowledge the existence of God. For even the demons believe — and shudder!
Merely intellectual faith, however, is not saving faith. That is, to simply acknowledge the existence of God. For even the demons believe — and shudder!
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The Good Tree is Jesus.
The most intimate example Jesus gave was that He was the True Vine. And His disciples could not bear fruit without Him. He clearly stated they could do nothing without Him.
He then says His true disciples would bear fruit abundantly.
In that discourse of the True Vine, there are only two types of branches. Those which abide in Him and He in them which bears fruit. And branches which produce no fruit at all. Which is most likely Jesus’ depiction of Judas. Considering the setting, Judas just left them and Jesus is only addressing the 11.
What’s fascinating is Jesus says the following to them (11) just minutes or hours before Peter denied Him three times and the rest flee from Him:
John 15: NASB
15“No longer do I call you slaves, for the slave does not know what his master is doing; but I have called you friends, for all things that I have heard from My Father I have made known to you. 16“You did not choose Me but I chose you, and appointed you that you would go and bear fruit, and that your fruit would remain, so that whatever you ask of the Father in My name He may give to you. 17“This I command you, that you love one another.
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Amen. Lutherans always have hard hitting short statements of truth. Well done.
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I don't remember Jesus talking of himself as a tree, but only as a vine.
Luke 6
"You hypocrite, first take the log out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to take out the speck that is in your brother’s eye. For there is no good tree which produces bad fruit, nor, on the other hand, a bad tree which produces good fruit. For each tree is known by its own fruit... The good man out of the good treasure of his heart brings forth what is good; and the evil man out of the evil treasure brings forth what is evil... "
I think it's clear that in Luke 6, Jesus uses the figure of a tree to describe us.
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Peter J Barban
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In the Bible, faith and saving faith are the same thing. But claims to faith can be evaluated as real or not. see James 2:14
14What good is it, my brothers and sisters, if someone claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save them?
James is not saying that there are 2 kinds of faith. Instead, he is saying that the evidence for faith is deeds. Without deeds, there is no evidence that you really have faith.
14What good is it, my brothers and sisters, if someone claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save them?
James is not saying that there are 2 kinds of faith. Instead, he is saying that the evidence for faith is deeds. Without deeds, there is no evidence that you really have faith.
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Guojing
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True but the book of James was written before the council event in acts 15.
But you are correct. There is now only one gospel, which is gospel given to Paul by the ascended Christ.
My point still remains. James did not receive the memo even up until acts 21. When you read James chapter 2, it’s important to recognise this when you try to understand what he meant by justification
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Not as far as I know either, and your scripture says it all.
Faith with out works is dead, and when something is dead, it no longer exists. If I claimed I had faith, when I had no works, I would be a flat out liar,
For example:
NIV James 2:
"15Suppose a brother or sister is without clothes and daily food. 16If one of you tells him, “Go in peace; stay warm and well fed,” but does not provide for his physical needs, what good is that ? 17So too, faith by itself, if it is not complemented by action, is dead.…"
And again, dead means dead.
However there are those who choose to believe we don't have to feed and cloth those without cloths or daily food, their salvation only depends on "claiming" they have faith, while the scripture right there will attest to the fact they are absolutely, positively, wrong. They are deluding themselves because they have only dead faith or faith that is non existent.
They choose to believe that because they want all the rewards of Christianity, but little, if anything to do with the sacrifice. I strongly recommend no one get caught up with those who choose such a way because the draw of wanting to do what we want out of sheer selfishness, over what God wants, as well as choosing to make obedience to God seem a bad thing, will affect ones mind in such a way, you may never get free of what you've been deceptively convinced of.. I've seen it happen.
Saving faith is simply faith, real faith.
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Genuine faith alone saves. Works demonstrate that faith is genuine.
Faith justifies man... works justify faith.
A car is speeding towards me and I say “the car will not hit me.” If at the last moment I dive out of the way, my works have demonstrated my true belief that the car was going to hit me.
Similarly, our works demonstrate our genuine beliefs. Yet it is not the works which matter for salvation, but the faith.
If you actually think the car will hit you, you dive out of the way. If you actually believe the gospel, it will be reflected in your works.
Faith justifies man... works justify faith.
A car is speeding towards me and I say “the car will not hit me.” If at the last moment I dive out of the way, my works have demonstrated my true belief that the car was going to hit me.
Similarly, our works demonstrate our genuine beliefs. Yet it is not the works which matter for salvation, but the faith.
If you actually think the car will hit you, you dive out of the way. If you actually believe the gospel, it will be reflected in your works.
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James says; “You see that a person is justified by works and not by faith alone.” (James 2:24)
Paul says; “For we consider that a person is declared righteous by faith apart from the works of the law.” (Romans 3:28)
James speaks of genuine faith that works by love. Paul speaks of genuine Faith (that works by love) apart from the Ten Commandments which cannot save.
Paul says; “For we consider that a person is declared righteous by faith apart from the works of the law.” (Romans 3:28)
James speaks of genuine faith that works by love. Paul speaks of genuine Faith (that works by love) apart from the Ten Commandments which cannot save.
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