forgiveness

Forgiving in a Scriptural sense means to absolve someone of their wrong. It's actually a "legal" term, which determines the person who committed the crime is not punishable for their sin.

Now keeping this in mind, there is a difference in forgiving (the legal act) and letting something go. (The act of turning someone's determinate future over to God.)

Which leads us to the question: Does God forgive the unrepentant?

The answer to that of course is "no".

Does God require of us to do something He does not do Himself?

The answer to that too is "no".

And this is why the Scriptural mandate is to forgive a brother or sister who repents. (Assuming that person displays genuine faith meaning they are atoned for and are not punishable for their sin.)

So all that being said; what do we do with those who are unrepentant?

This is where we turn someone's determinant future over to God's prerogative.

Does this mean that if someone has committed a legally defined crime that we do not pursue legal action in human courts? No, it does not! OT law stated that the death penalty was to keep the land clean of violence. There are practical reasons for executing criminals. And the primary one is to keep them from racking up more victims.

The Righterzpen said:

And this is why the Scriptural mandate is to forgive a brother or sister who repents.

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People tell me I need to forgive, even if they are not sorry, because unforgiveness hinders prayers.

ChicanaRose said:

People tell me I need to forgive, even if they are not sorry, because unforgiveness hinders prayers.

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What does the Scripture say though? People tend to say a lot of things that aren't really in the Bible.

The Righterzpen said:

What does the Scripture say though? People tend to say a lot of things that aren't really in the Bible.

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Unforgiveness could lead to sinning in my anger within my heart. I feel like it's temptation.

ChicanaRose said:

Unforgiveness could lead to sinning in my anger within my heart. I feel like it's temptation.

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Anger isn't sin. It's what you do with it that's sin. Jesus got angry. Jesus got down right irate at times.

@ChicanaRose

I don't agree with everything this ministry says; but they are a good resource for your questions

Luke 17:3 Ministries Inc For Adult Daughters of Controlling or Abusive Birth-Families

@BibleloverBill - I'd add an 8th type of anger to your list here; which maybe I'd qualify as "developmental" because it's mostly seen in children. It stems out of frustration for lack of ability to understand, process and / or communicate an internal environment; be it pain, fatigue, illness, confusion, or other neurological "incompleteness".

I never understood, or even knew this type of "anger" existed until I had a child with developmental issues. There were times he'd behave in ways that were absolutely baffling and sometimes even outside of the realm of typical child behavior. Like going into a store with a lot of florescent lights and the kid starts acting really bonkers. Come to find out, it was the brightness and noise of the lights that was causing this.

When the neurological wiring in the brain is "misaligned" and causes an internal environment that we don't even know is there, because we've never experienced it; and the end result is a tantrum or "meltdown". that's not typical "anger" that would fall into any of your categories. It's a behavior that exhibits itself as "anger"; but I'm not even sure I'd call it that, or at least not in the traditional sense.

It's also a thing thats beyond "I want my own way." because "my own way" would be not to have to live like this. Yet depending on the individual, they may not even be able to express that because they may not know the world any differently.

You also might also see something similar to this in people who have medical issues, elderly people with dementia or even the mentally ill; because they are just uncomfortable, can't fix what's wrong and may not even be able to identify what it is that's troubling them. And that type of thing doesn't go away by just having a better mental attitude. Attitude can certainly help someone cope with it; but it doesn't solve the problem. And some problems are just not fixable in this life. There's a lot in life about "anger" and behavior that we don't understand.

So, moral of the story is that what we see externally may not be the whole story; nor may it be what we assume it is.

BibleloverBill said:

The Luke verse and 2 Timothy 3:1-5 and the second half of Romans 1 indicate that forgiveness is not always expected by God.

For a lot more of good rated and sorted information:
(c) facing common challenges-- Box

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I can see why reconciliation is not always expected (i.e. not needing to resume a relationship with the person I forgave). But why is forgiveness in heart not necessary? How can one have peace in his heart without forgiving?

ChicanaRose said:

I can see why reconciliation is not always expected (i.e. not needing to resume a relationship with the person I forgave). But why is forgiveness in heart not necessary? How can one have peace in his heart without forgiving?

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That depends on your definition of "forgiveness". There is a difference in forgiving someone and turning them over to God's prerogative. You are still asking God to help you deal with the wreckage their sin has caused and help you let go of the pain, so you are not carrying that aspect of the broken relationship. That is not the same thing as absolving them of their guilt though.

It also too, is not usually a "one time" / "over and done with" change in you. Dealing with the consequences of someone else's sin (which can be very grievous) is a process in and of itself. Chronic domestic violence, children of substance abusers, sexual abuse survivors; those types of things were never meant to be an "oh I forgive you" and it keeps happening. That is NOT forgiveness.

I explained earlier in the thread that the word translated "forgiveness" in some places in Scripture, is actually a judicial term meaning the person is not held accountable for the sin they've committed. That is the context from God's perspective, as it's applied to a believer who's been atoned for and this is why "forgiveness" is predicated upon whether or not guilty party repents. Repentance is a mandatory fruit of the Spirit showing forth evidence that a person really is a believer.

Now repentance is not an apology. It may involve an apology and an apology is appropriate when someone has been wronged. Repentance though requires an owning of, as well as change in behavior. Repentance requires a serious decision to change and not engage in a sinful behavior.

For example: If I have a tendency to fly off the handle and take out my frustration on my kid, all the apologies in the world are meaningless if I don't stop taking my frustration out on my kid.

Now that doesn't mean I don't ever get frustrated. It means I do differently with my frustration, even looking at why I'm frustrated and whether or not the reason for that frustration is actually sinful.

If a person is in an abusive relationship, they are likely frustrated with the relationship for reasons that are not sin. Yet if they take their frustration with the relationship out on their kids, they are not addressing what needs to be addressed.

Now confronting the abusive relationship usually means one need to get out of it at least temporarily. If the abuser is serious about changing their behavior, that is the only time reconciliation is possible; and that is a process the abuser needs to go through without living with the people they are abusing. The victims also need their own recovery process, so they learn not to be victims.

An irreconcilable relationship does not mean that you don't turn over to God the consequences of that broken relationship and let Him deal with / decide what to do with that person eternally speaking.

It also doesn't mean that they don't face legal consequences in this life. They may serve jail time depending on what they did.

Also, evading responsibility is not "forgiveness". A dead beat parent is still financially responsible for their children. Now the court often leaves the choice up to the custodial parent whether or not they decide to pursue child support; understanding that's not always feasible and certainly in cases of documented severe abuse would not be wise.

The only time courts usually mandates child support, is if the custodial parent is getting financial assistance from DSS. This does not include disability payments though (like if a child gets SSI) or the custodial parent gets SSI or SSDI. One may still qualify for programs like Section 8 or food stamps on account of the disability, not on account of the lack of the absent parent's income.

So getting back to your question of having peace in your heart. Do you see now how "forgiving" someone in such circumstances, as in allowing them to continue to abuse you (or minor children you may be responsible for) will not give you peace in your heart? Do you see the difference?

Compare that to dealing with someone who is seriously working on amending their wrongs and changing their behavior. It takes a certain amount of wisdom (and a good dose of common sense) to distinguish the difference. Yet if someone is making serious attempts and progress toward amending a relationship and you don't work with them; then that is on you. A decent parent may not want to be married to their spouse, yet still want to be part of their kids lives, is a possible example. Obviously there is sin between the parents and that is a difficult circumstance to deal with; because the reconciliation may not be toward "you" the other parent, yet you are legally (and morally) obligated to give them their fair chance in regards to the other relationships.

Said such circumstances are sticky wickets that require prudence and wisdom and your responsibility toward those circumstances depends on the other party's behavior.

The Righterzpen said:

That depends on your definition of "forgiveness".

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So it could mean leaving the judgment to God thus lightening your own emotional burden?
Why did you use the above examples? Do you work with abused families?

In 05 I went thru a very traumatic event, I thought I gave my ex HIV. I don’t have it btw. I walked around OKC wishing I didn’t kill her.

I go to a pay phone and tell the cops I gave her HIV, you can only imagine their reaction.

I got sent to a hospital to get a blood test but the TV wouldn’t stop talking to me.

I make a scene in front of a officer. I go to jail and I’m in a loony Ben. After five days I get out.

I go to the club I worked at and take Five XTC pills. I wanted to end it. I make a scene and get beat up by a cop. I go back to jail. Thrown to the ground held down by a guard and the other pulls his pants down. I scream I have HIV!!!! They both threw me to the ground and then grab me and throw me into a stretcher. Put a catheter in me and pulled it out w the balloon open. I didn’t know your pee hole can be the size of a half dollar .


I’m then put into a Ambulance and I look up at the skylight band say Father forgive me in Jesus name. Then I fell asleep.


The moral of this story is yeah I’ve been through a lot. I owned all that I’ve done. What they did traumatized me but I don’t desire any of them Hell, I know what it’s like to hurt, be rejected and treated like trash.


I’ve felt the pangs of death. I don’t desire anyone going through what I did.

ChicanaRose said:

So it could mean leaving the judgment to God thus lightening your own emotional burden?

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Yes, you leave to God what ever it is He decides and let it go. If He will redeem them; that is a grand mercy for the sake of any one's soul. If He does not redeem them, we still have to say: "Let God be God."

In some cases, this is easier than others.

I spoke to a woman not too long ago who's son died of a drug overdose. She was convinced he was a believer because at one point when he was a kid he "said the prayer"; yet he obviously did not live like a believer. He was a chronic drug addict; been in and out of rehab like 15 times. He OD'd on Heroin and Phentenal. The death was probably not intentional on his part; yet there is a prime example of reaping the consequence of one's sin. Sad; but none of us are guaranteed happy endings.

Was her son (who at this point I believe was in his 40's) redeemed? Who knows; yet it is Biblical to say that his life showed no evidence of having trusted Christ. Now what really happens between a person and God in the last moments of life; only He knows. Could he have been a "thief on the cross" type of conversion? Possible, but I would not bet my own redemption on that.

We all have to come to terms with the fact that broad is the path that leads to destruction and few there are who find the road to eternal life. This is true even when those who are lost are our own family members.

I have the same questions about my dad. (I believe my mother is in hell.) Dad was asking for me to come to the hospital and I couldn't because I didn't have anyone to watch my son. (My husband at the time insisted that he needed to go to work and would not watch his child.) So, dad was brain dead before I got there.

So what happened to dad ultimately, I don't know. Despite the extreme dysfunction in the family, dad was fairly moral. He'd been faithful to his marriage, was a decent guy, got up and went to work every day, was responsible to feed and care for his kids when his wife was too drunk to function. (Mom was an alcoholic.) He didn't beat us, didn't call us names, never sexually abused anyone. (The known pedophiles in the family are my brother and one uncle that I know of. The uncle is deceased.)

Dad though was depressed and decided he was going to end his life one night by consuming too much alcohol. He was on dialysis and his binge drinking that night sent him into kidney failure. His bowel became twisted. He went to the hospital. They'd given him some pain killers and were going to do surgery on him the next morning to untwist it; it ruptured at 7 AM during change of shift. He had a DNR and the nursing staff didn't realize that at the time, so they resuscitated him and put him on a ventilator. Which left it basically on his kids to let the doctors unplug him. I was the only one who had the guts to tell them to do it. Consequently, my siblings got mad at me. I knew though it was the right thing to do and I had no convictions from God that I shouldn't. The doctor had already told me he was brain dead. If he made his peace with God that night; I'll probably never know that this side of eternity. I do know this though, nothing I would have done would have changed that.

ChicanaRose said:

Why did you use the above examples? Do you work with abused families?

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I have a BA in trauma studies. I'm an adult child of an alcoholic, an incest survivor and a war veteran. Never had a substance abuse problem, but i've been in recovery / counseling since I was 13 years old. I'm 48 now. I've done a lot of research and done a lot of reading.

I myself was not a domestic violence victim as an adult, but my son for the first 9 years of his life existed in a dysfunctional very stressed household. My husband / his dad was just the kind of person who never dealt well with life on life's terms. He had trouble keeping jobs, was not very successful in college and would come home and take his frustrations out on his developmentally disabled son. When the child was 5, we spent 4 weeks in a domestic violence shelter. That opened a CPS case, which did help to keep the child safe. I was fed up though and had enough. When we came back from the shelter, my husband made some comment that this was just the way he was and that I had to live with it. I told my husband: "if you hit this kid, I'm calling the cops and your azz is going to jail. I don't care how you think you are!" And sure enough, the violence stopped. (Gee, imagine that!) Now he wouldn't hit me because he knew that as a veteran, I had combat training, PTSD; and I could break his arm.

In 2010, we were in a catastrophic car accident which left both adults with multiple broken bones. That was the point I believe it really sunk in on dad that he no longer could resort to just bullying his son. He now had limitations and the kid was just getting bigger. My son is 6ft 2in and 178lbs at this point. He's certainly capable of putting up a fight in self defense.

A year later, my husband essentially threw us out of the apartment. I came to find out later, he was on the "end" of affair #1. He's start affair #2 shortly there after. After 6 years of being separated, he filed for divorce in February of 2017, so he could marry girlfriend #2. On March 3rd of that year, she broke up with him and he committed suicide that night. Cops came to my door to tell me he was deceased after he hadn't shown up for work for 2 days. (That was unusual. He always went to work.) His employer was concerned, so they called the police. They found his body in his apartment.

After somewhat of a battle between his brother and the landlord not letting me in; I finally got into the apartment to clean it out. (Technically I was next of kin because we were still legally married and his biological son lived with me.) I found the suicide note and turned it in to the police.

Do I believe my husband is in heaven? I say: "probably not". (No evidence of repentance or a changed life.) Was it a tragic ending to a series of bad choices? Absolutely. One thing that became clear to me when my husband died that I didn't really grasp when my mother died; is that death changes a lot of things. It puts closer on stuff that sometimes you can't get otherwise.

Could my husband have had a happier more stable life if he'd come to some point of trusting God, repenting and seeking forgiveness. Yeah, of course he could. It didn't work out that way though, and that's the biggest tragedy of "the wages of sin is death".

Am I angry at either him or my mother any longer. No, I can't say that I am. Does either of their situations cause me to ponder God's sovereignty in so many ways? Yes, they do. It's still mind boggling.