IS SALVATION CONDTIONAL WITH FREE WILL AND WHAT DOES IT MEAN TO BELIEVE?

LoveGodsWord

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I know. I know. But as I said, some people may look more closely and see that the nature of the two sets of verses -- OT and NT -- is not the same, although they deal generally with the matter of salvation.

To understand the words of God rather than misunderstand them ought to be a good thing, don't we usually think?

Hi brother thanks for your thoughts but I do not believe if someone looks carefully at the scriptures provided that they can come to that conclusion. As shown in post # 117 above and in the OP both the OLD and NEW Testament scriptures follow the same theme and that is salvation is conditional on believing and following God's Word.

The "IF's" as presented in the OP for both the OLD and NEW COVENANT scriptures are condiional clauses to receiving the promises of God's salvation and eternal life. Both sets of scriptures follow this exact same theme. They are not a different set of IFs at all but are all salvation related condtional promises.

God bless
 
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LoveGodsWord

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So again, I ask you. Do you deny that if a believer lives according to his flesh, he will spiritually die? A simple yes or no will suffice.

I would say not only spiritually but physically and in all sense of the words meaning *ROMANS 8:13; ROMANS 6:23; HEBREWS 10:26-31.

God bless
 
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Oldmantook

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That's right. Now translate that into the original point about Romans 8:13.
Did you not read my explanation and comprehend why it cannot mean what you presume? I suggest you study for yourself what is a 1st Class Conditional Sentence in the Greek of which Rom 8:13 represents. There are 4 Conditional sentence types in Koine Greek. I recommend that you study the differences. Unlike English, Greek is a more precise language. I already explained what a 1st class sentence entails. Have you ignored my explanation?
For the third time, do you believe a genuine believer can live according the flesh and not spiritually die? Yes or No?
 
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Oldmantook

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I would say not only spiritually but physically and in all sense of the words meaning *ROMANS 8:13; ROMANS 6:23; HEBREWS 10:26-31.

God bless
I have encountered those who claim that "die" in Rom 8:13 refers to physical death; not spiritual death in order to cling to their belief in eternal security. The problem with that logic is that every single person dies physically - irrespective of what kind of lifestyle they lived. And it would not make sense for Paul to say if live according to the flesh, you will [physically] die, but if you live according to the Spirit you will [physically] live. In other words if you live a holy/obedient life, you will live longer. In the real world, we have probably known believers who have lived in obedience to the Lord but have died at a younger age.

In order to refute their contention that Rom 8:13 cannot mean what they think it means, I simply refer them to James 5:19-20 which plainly states that a wandering brother faces the death of his soul if he is not turned back to the truth. Death of the soul cannot refer to physical death; instead it means spiritual death. Thus living according to the flesh (Rom 8:13) and wandering from the truth (Js 5:19-20) result in separation from God and loss of salvation. Scripture interprets scripture.
 
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LoveGodsWord

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I have encountered those who claim that "die" in Rom 8:13 refers to physical death; not spiritual death in order to cling to their belief in eternal security. The problem with that logic is that every single person dies physically - irrespective of what kind of lifestyle they lived. And it would not make sense for Paul to say if live according to the flesh, you will [physically] die, but if you live according to the Spirit you will [physically] live. In other words if you live a holy/obedient life, you will live longer. In the real world, we have probably known believers who have lived in obedience to the Lord but have died at a younger age.

In order to refute their contention that Rom 8:13 cannot mean what they think it means, I simply refer them to James 5:19-20 which plainly states that a wandering brother faces the death of his soul if he is not turned back to the truth. Death of the soul cannot refer to physical death; instead it means spiritual death. Thus living according to the flesh (Rom 8:13) and wandering from the truth (Js 5:19-20) result in separation from God and loss of salvation. Scripture interprets scripture.

I think we are saying the same thing brother. My reference to death is the loss of salvation and eternal life which is the wages of sin in those who reject the gift of God's dear son. Spiritual death is eternal death which is physical death. God bless and thanks for sharing your thoughts with us.
 
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1213

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Q1 What does it mean to believe in God?
Q2 What is saving faith?
Q2 Is salvation condtional on BELIEVING AND FOLLOWING God's Word or just believing it?

A1. I think it can mean two things, to believe that God exists, or to believe what God said. I think it is more important to believe what God says than that He exists.

A2. Bible tells that righteous will live by faith. Righteous people are faithful/loyal to God. That makes them do right actions, which is why I believe they will have eternal life.

These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.
Mat. 25:46

For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Romans 6:23

Behold, his soul is puffed up. It is not upright in him, but the righteous will live by his faith.
Habakkuk 2:4


Now that no man is justified by the law before God is evident, for, "The righteous will live by faith."

Galatians 3:11

However, I think it is wrong to say it is saving. If person is righteous, there is no judgment and no need for saving from the judgment. Person gains the judgment, if he has sin, is unrighteous. But righteous doesn’t sin:

He who does righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous. He who sins is of the devil, for the devil has been sinning from the beginning. To this end the Son of God was revealed, that he might destroy the works of the devil. Whoever is born of God doesn't commit sin, because his seed remains in him; and he can't sin, because he is born of God. In this the children of God are revealed, and the children of the devil. Whoever doesn't do righteousness is not of God, neither is he who doesn't love his brother.
1 John 3:7-10

There is no work that person could do to earn salvation, forgiveness of sins. God forgives freely and so saves from the judgment that would come because of sin. Forgiveness can’t be earned, but judgment can be by continuing in sin. That is why Jesu said "Neither do I condemn you. Go your way. From now on, sin no more." John 8:11. I think it would be really important to understand that God didn’t forgive us so that we could continue in sin. He forgave so that we could be free from sin.

And because of 1 John 3:7-10, I think sin means that person rejects God, or lives without God. When person commits sin, and rejects God, it usually then leads also to all kind of unlawful acts.

A3. When salvation means that you are saved from the judgment that would come because of sin, it is not conditional. The forgiveness is offered freely. However, it is not useful, if you don’t accept it and if you continue in sin.

There is nothing that you can do to earn salvation or forgiveness, but you can lose your life if you sin and reject God.
 
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