Christsfreeservant

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Jesus’ Treatment of Women

As far as I know, from what I read in the New Testament, Jesus always treated women with high honor and respect. He never talked down to a woman or treated any woman as though she was less valuable than a man, with maybe one exception.

As recorded in Matt. 15:21-28, it appears that Jesus’ seemingly harsh words to a Gentile woman were not meant in unkindness, but that they were meant to test her faith, and to lead her to stand up for what she believed, too. And, then he honored her for her faith, which he said was “great faith.”

And when other men took advantage of women, for evil purposes, or when they mocked or criticized them, Jesus stood up for the women, and he protected them. And, he cared about their needs, and he ministered to them, and he honored their faith. And, if he did rebuke them, he was loving and gentle in his rebuke. He was always tender with them, compassionate and loving. And, he used women to share the gospel with men, too.

[See: Jn. 8:1-11; Lu. 7:36-50; Matt. 26:6-13; Mk. 5:25-34; Lu. 10:38-42; Jn. 2:1-11; Jn. 4:1-42; Jn. 20:11-18.]

In fact, In Luke 7 we read that a Pharisee invited Jesus to eat with him at his house. When a woman who had a reputation heard he was there, she came there and she anointed his feet with ointment, and wet them with her tears, and wiped them with her hair, and caressed them with her kisses.

When the Pharisee disapproved of the woman, Jesus rebuked him. But, what he said to the Pharisee was for the encouragement of the woman, as well. For, what Jesus said to the Pharisee is that everything that he should have done for Jesus, but did not do, the woman did do. For, he said, “she loved much.” And, he said to the woman, “Your faith has saved you; go in peace.”

And, we read in Luke 8:1-3 that some women even traveled with Jesus and the disciples, too, and that they helped provide for Jesus’ and the disciples’ needs out of their own means.

I am assuming that the women made things which they sold for money, and that out of their earnings that they helped provide for Jesus and his disciples in the work of the ministry. So, they were co-laborers with Jesus and with his twelve male disciples in the ministry.

Your Daughters Shall Prophesy

And, when the scriptures teach on the gifts of the Spirit, they do not differentiate between men and women, i.e. that some gifts are not for women. In fact, in Acts 2:17-18 we read:

“And in the last days it shall be, God declares,
that I will pour out my Spirit on all flesh,
and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy,
and your young men shall see visions,
and your old men shall dream dreams;
even on my male servants and female servants
in those days I will pour out my Spirit, and they shall prophesy.”


So, why is it then that we have these teachings in the New Testament that sound as though women are to always remain silent, that they are not to speak in the gatherings of the church, without exception? (1 Co. 14:34-35; 1 Tim. 2:11-12). Doesn’t that seem contradictory to how Jesus treated women? And, isn’t it contradictory to the passage in Acts 2, and to other New Testament scriptures that speak of women prophesying?

And, why is it that so many church congregations, at least here in America, do not allow their women to prophecy (preach) in their gatherings? And, some pastors treat women as though they are dirt under their feet for them to walk on? For, Jesus never treated a woman like that. He valued women, and he used women in ministry, and he even sent women out to share the gospel with men. And, the Holy Spirit of God gifted women to prophesy. So, why would God then turn around and put the smack down on women?

And, why, then would the scriptures talk about how we are all one body in Christ, and that we are all necessary, and that one part should not say to another, “We have no need of you!”? And, why would it teach that the body grows and builds itself up in love and in the faith as “each part” does its work? And, then tell our women that their part, which God gave to them, and for which he gifted them, is not permitted? (See Rom. 12; 1 Co. 12; Eph. 4). Is the church then not suppressing the gifts of women?

How can we resolve these seeming contradictions? Is it possible that these passages on the silence of women in the church can have another plausible explanation other than the complete and total suppression of the gift of prophecy among the women in the church? And, if so, what might that be?

For, women obviously prophesied in New Testament times (See: Lu. 2:36; Acts 2:17; Acts 21:9; 1 Co. 11:5). So, how are we to understand this restriction of the silence of women in the church if God poured out his Spirit on both men and women so that they could prophesy, and we have recorded in the New Testament that there were indeed women who did prophesy? What is the context? What is the purpose of the restriction?

The Context Reveals

Well, the context of 1 Corinthians 14 is that of teaching on spiritual gifts, teaching on love, and instructions regarding the misuse of the gifts and the right way in which the gifts are to be used, and regarding their purpose, too. So, this is in the context of 1 Corinthians 12 and 13, also.

And, it is in 1 Corinthians 12 where we are taught that each body part is necessary, and that we are not to say to another part of the body that we have no need of him or of her. And, it is God who decides who gets what part, too. And, it is the Holy Spirit who assigns the gifts.

And, here in 1 Corinthians 14 we are told first off to pursue love, and to earnestly desire the spiritual gifts, especially that we would prophesy. And, the one who prophesies speaks to people for their upbuilding, consolation and encouragement. The one who prophesies edifies other believers, for the spiritual growth and advancement of them in the faith. He or she inspires, cheers, urges, nurtures, promotes and fosters spiritual maturity and holy walks in the Spirit of God, too, which is consistent with Eph. 4:15-16.

So, if both women and men are gifted with the gift of prophecy, and we women are to use the gifts of the Spirit given to us for the upbuilding and the encouragement of the body of Christ, his church; and if not one of us is to say to another “We have no need of you,” and if all the parts are necessary, and women did prophesy in the New Testament, and the body of Christ is built up in the faith as “each part” does its work, then we have to conclude that these instructions on the silence of women have a meaning other than the absolute silence of women in the church.

Order and Submission

So, again, let’s look at the context. The context has to do with how gifts are used, and it has to do with the order in which they are used. And, then let’s look at the wording of the passage, too. For, it all comes down to submission. It says that a woman, if she has questions regarding something she wants to learn, that she should ask her husband at home. So, apparently women were interrupting the order of service to ask questions. And, some of this is definitely cultural to that day and time.

It also appears, by the context, that these women were usurping authority over the men, for it clearly instructs them that they are to be in submission to their husbands, and to the leadership of the church, and it indicates that they were stepping out of that order by speaking in the church gatherings in a disruptive way. So, these women were out of order in what they were doing.

And, the passage in 1 Tim. 2 supports this, that women are not to usurp authority over the men, and that they are not to instruct men in an authoritative manner which would require men to obey them.

So, in conclusion, I believe God has gifted both men and women in various ways, and that scripturally both men and women are gifted with the gift of prophecy (preaching), which is for the edification and encouragement of the body of Christ and for their strengthening and nurturing of them in the faith, that they may all reach maturity in Christ Jesus, their Lord.

I believe Jesus values women highly, that he gifts them in ministry, and that he calls them to prophesy (preach) the truths of scripture so that the body of Christ might be drawn closer to their Lord in walks of faith, and so that they may not wander off from the faith to go after what is false. I also believe that our Lord uses women sometimes in areas usually assigned to men, but that he does so when so many men are spiritually AWOL, and so they are neglecting their callings (See: Lu. 7:36-50 as illustrative of this).

Lastly, I believe it all comes down to submission to the authorities within the church. If women are given permission to speak, and it is done in proper order, and if it is done in the right way, for the upbuilding of the body of Christ, then they should be allowed to speak. But, they are not to usurp authority over the men nor to cause a disturbance in the congregation, and they are not to instruct men in the sense of being over men in authority. But, they are to remain in submission and in proper order, and then they can speak as they are called upon to speak, as God gifts them to speak.

Have Thine Own Way, Lord

Words by Adelaide A. Pollard, 1907
Music by George C. Stebbins, 1907


Have Thine own way, Lord! Have Thine own way!
Thou art the potter, I am the clay.
Mold me and make me after Thy will,
While I am waiting, yielded and still.

Have Thine own way, Lord! Have Thine own way!
Wounded and weary, help me I pray!
Power, all power, surely is Thine!
Touch me and heal me, Savior divine!

Have Thine own way, Lord! Have Thine own way!
Hold o'er my being absolute sway.
Fill with Thy Spirit till all shall see
Christ only, always, living in me!
 

Romans 8

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Lastly, I believe it all comes down to submission to the authorities within the church. If women are given permission to speak, and it is done in proper order, and if it is done in the right way, for the upbuilding of the body of Christ, then they should be allowed to speak. But, they are not to usurp authority over the men nor to cause a disturbance in the congregation, and they are not to instruct men in the sense of being over men in authority. But, they are to remain in submission and in proper order, and then they can speak as they are called upon to speak, as God gifts them to speak.

I think this summarizes your post and it's a fair point. Prophesying and preaching are not the same though. When they speak of prophesying in the Bible they literally mean prophesying.

This topic has been attempted several times already but the feminists always crash the thread and beat their chest. Some members of this forum attend churches in which they actually allow women to take on positions of authority. The only churches in my area I know of which allow this kind of thing are New Age and apostate churches.
 
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ajcarey

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To those who heed Scripture the issue should not even be up for debate. It was unthinkable for a woman to speak at all in the Jewish synagogues and Jesus never challenged that at all. God loves and respects women equally to men, but He has not delegated authority to women to speak His Word in the assembly of His saints- because speaking in such a context is inherently authoritative- speaking in other places and contexts is not necessarily out of line for a woman, but in the churches it is surely out of line. The principles of Headship were established at the creation of man so this is an unchanging principle that transcends culture. The Scripture is too clear: 1 Corinthians 14:34-35 "Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience as also saith the law. And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church."
 
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bèlla

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We must look at the whole of the Word. God’s hierarchy is revealed throughout the bible. He created Adam and gave him dominion. He knew Eve was next. That wasn’t a surprise. If He wanted her in that role He’d have taken her rib instead of Adam’s.

Abraham is called the father of faith not Sarah.
Joseph was sent to preserve the Israelites. Not Dinah.
Moses was sent to deliver the Israelites. Not Miriam and she wasn’t made the High Priest either.

God chose one woman and several men to be judges.
But when they asked for a king He chose men to occupy that role.

And when Christ chose disciples and His rock He selected 12 men. He could have added women to the ranks but He didn’t.

That doesn’t underscore our place and role in God’s kingdom. But a hierarchy always has a commander and subordinates who assist with the mission.

There is no biblical precedent for women occupying places of authority consistently throughout the bible. With the numerous opportunities He had to put a woman in that place He chose a man in nearly every instance.

There are 12 Tribes for Israel. But Jacob had 13 children. Christ ratified that order by selecting 12 disciples. Their gender is no coincidence nor is the omission.
 
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Paidiske

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This is not, strictly speaking, a debate forum, but a place for sharing the fruits of our personal reflections and so on.

So - within the purpose of this forum - all I can say is that God called me to ministry, and that call overrides all the arguments about why God supposedly couldn't or wouldn't do that. It would be wrong to refuse to yield to God's way in that call, as in anything else.

I think a lot of the angst with this topic hinges on our understanding of "authority," and what authority we give our ministers in the first place. I'd say that what Scripture excludes women from are unhealthy exercises of authority which men shouldn't be engaging in, either.
 
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topher694

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Jesus’ Treatment of Women

As far as I know, from what I read in the New Testament, Jesus always treated women with high honor and respect. He never talked down to a woman or treated any woman as though she was less valuable than a man, with maybe one exception.

As recorded in Matt. 15:21-28, it appears that Jesus’ seemingly harsh words to a Gentile woman were not meant in unkindness, but that they were meant to test her faith, and to lead her to stand up for what she believed, too. And, then he honored her for her faith, which he said was “great faith.”

And when other men took advantage of women, for evil purposes, or when they mocked or criticized them, Jesus stood up for the women, and he protected them. And, he cared about their needs, and he ministered to them, and he honored their faith. And, if he did rebuke them, he was loving and gentle in his rebuke. He was always tender with them, compassionate and loving. And, he used women to share the gospel with men, too.

[See: Jn. 8:1-11; Lu. 7:36-50; Matt. 26:6-13; Mk. 5:25-34; Lu. 10:38-42; Jn. 2:1-11; Jn. 4:1-42; Jn. 20:11-18.]

In fact, In Luke 7 we read that a Pharisee invited Jesus to eat with him at his house. When a woman who had a reputation heard he was there, she came there and she anointed his feet with ointment, and wet them with her tears, and wiped them with her hair, and caressed them with her kisses.

When the Pharisee disapproved of the woman, Jesus rebuked him. But, what he said to the Pharisee was for the encouragement of the woman, as well. For, what Jesus said to the Pharisee is that everything that he should have done for Jesus, but did not do, the woman did do. For, he said, “she loved much.” And, he said to the woman, “Your faith has saved you; go in peace.”

And, we read in Luke 8:1-3 that some women even traveled with Jesus and the disciples, too, and that they helped provide for Jesus’ and the disciples’ needs out of their own means.

I am assuming that the women made things which they sold for money, and that out of their earnings that they helped provide for Jesus and his disciples in the work of the ministry. So, they were co-laborers with Jesus and with his twelve male disciples in the ministry.

Your Daughters Shall Prophesy

And, when the scriptures teach on the gifts of the Spirit, they do not differentiate between men and women, i.e. that some gifts are not for women. In fact, in Acts 2:17-18 we read:

“And in the last days it shall be, God declares,
that I will pour out my Spirit on all flesh,
and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy,
and your young men shall see visions,
and your old men shall dream dreams;
even on my male servants and female servants
in those days I will pour out my Spirit, and they shall prophesy.”


So, why is it then that we have these teachings in the New Testament that sound as though women are to always remain silent, that they are not to speak in the gatherings of the church, without exception? (1 Co. 14:34-35; 1 Tim. 2:11-12). Doesn’t that seem contradictory to how Jesus treated women? And, isn’t it contradictory to the passage in Acts 2, and to other New Testament scriptures that speak of women prophesying?

And, why is it that so many church congregations, at least here in America, do not allow their women to prophecy (preach) in their gatherings? And, some pastors treat women as though they are dirt under their feet for them to walk on? For, Jesus never treated a woman like that. He valued women, and he used women in ministry, and he even sent women out to share the gospel with men. And, the Holy Spirit of God gifted women to prophesy. So, why would God then turn around and put the smack down on women?

And, why, then would the scriptures talk about how we are all one body in Christ, and that we are all necessary, and that one part should not say to another, “We have no need of you!”? And, why would it teach that the body grows and builds itself up in love and in the faith as “each part” does its work? And, then tell our women that their part, which God gave to them, and for which he gifted them, is not permitted? (See Rom. 12; 1 Co. 12; Eph. 4). Is the church then not suppressing the gifts of women?

How can we resolve these seeming contradictions? Is it possible that these passages on the silence of women in the church can have another plausible explanation other than the complete and total suppression of the gift of prophecy among the women in the church? And, if so, what might that be?

For, women obviously prophesied in New Testament times (See: Lu. 2:36; Acts 2:17; Acts 21:9; 1 Co. 11:5). So, how are we to understand this restriction of the silence of women in the church if God poured out his Spirit on both men and women so that they could prophesy, and we have recorded in the New Testament that there were indeed women who did prophesy? What is the context? What is the purpose of the restriction?

The Context Reveals

Well, the context of 1 Corinthians 14 is that of teaching on spiritual gifts, teaching on love, and instructions regarding the misuse of the gifts and the right way in which the gifts are to be used, and regarding their purpose, too. So, this is in the context of 1 Corinthians 12 and 13, also.

And, it is in 1 Corinthians 12 where we are taught that each body part is necessary, and that we are not to say to another part of the body that we have no need of him or of her. And, it is God who decides who gets what part, too. And, it is the Holy Spirit who assigns the gifts.

And, here in 1 Corinthians 14 we are told first off to pursue love, and to earnestly desire the spiritual gifts, especially that we would prophesy. And, the one who prophesies speaks to people for their upbuilding, consolation and encouragement. The one who prophesies edifies other believers, for the spiritual growth and advancement of them in the faith. He or she inspires, cheers, urges, nurtures, promotes and fosters spiritual maturity and holy walks in the Spirit of God, too, which is consistent with Eph. 4:15-16.

So, if both women and men are gifted with the gift of prophecy, and we women are to use the gifts of the Spirit given to us for the upbuilding and the encouragement of the body of Christ, his church; and if not one of us is to say to another “We have no need of you,” and if all the parts are necessary, and women did prophesy in the New Testament, and the body of Christ is built up in the faith as “each part” does its work, then we have to conclude that these instructions on the silence of women have a meaning other than the absolute silence of women in the church.

Order and Submission

So, again, let’s look at the context. The context has to do with how gifts are used, and it has to do with the order in which they are used. And, then let’s look at the wording of the passage, too. For, it all comes down to submission. It says that a woman, if she has questions regarding something she wants to learn, that she should ask her husband at home. So, apparently women were interrupting the order of service to ask questions. And, some of this is definitely cultural to that day and time.

It also appears, by the context, that these women were usurping authority over the men, for it clearly instructs them that they are to be in submission to their husbands, and to the leadership of the church, and it indicates that they were stepping out of that order by speaking in the church gatherings in a disruptive way. So, these women were out of order in what they were doing.

And, the passage in 1 Tim. 2 supports this, that women are not to usurp authority over the men, and that they are not to instruct men in an authoritative manner which would require men to obey them.

So, in conclusion, I believe God has gifted both men and women in various ways, and that scripturally both men and women are gifted with the gift of prophecy (preaching), which is for the edification and encouragement of the body of Christ and for their strengthening and nurturing of them in the faith, that they may all reach maturity in Christ Jesus, their Lord.

I believe Jesus values women highly, that he gifts them in ministry, and that he calls them to prophesy (preach) the truths of scripture so that the body of Christ might be drawn closer to their Lord in walks of faith, and so that they may not wander off from the faith to go after what is false. I also believe that our Lord uses women sometimes in areas usually assigned to men, but that he does so when so many men are spiritually AWOL, and so they are neglecting their callings (See: Lu. 7:36-50 as illustrative of this).

Lastly, I believe it all comes down to submission to the authorities within the church. If women are given permission to speak, and it is done in proper order, and if it is done in the right way, for the upbuilding of the body of Christ, then they should be allowed to speak. But, they are not to usurp authority over the men nor to cause a disturbance in the congregation, and they are not to instruct men in the sense of being over men in authority. But, they are to remain in submission and in proper order, and then they can speak as they are called upon to speak, as God gifts them to speak.

Have Thine Own Way, Lord

Words by Adelaide A. Pollard, 1907
Music by George C. Stebbins, 1907


Have Thine own way, Lord! Have Thine own way!
Thou art the potter, I am the clay.
Mold me and make me after Thy will,
While I am waiting, yielded and still.

Have Thine own way, Lord! Have Thine own way!
Wounded and weary, help me I pray!
Power, all power, surely is Thine!
Touch me and heal me, Savior divine!

Have Thine own way, Lord! Have Thine own way!
Hold o'er my being absolute sway.
Fill with Thy Spirit till all shall see
Christ only, always, living in me!

I think you are very much on the right track with your lead up. I actually preached directly on this topic about a month ago. I did some pretty extensive study in preparation. God actually lead me to an alternate explanation (for lack of a better term) for 1 Cor 14:34-35, which makes a TON of sense (to me) given the context of not only chapter 14 but also 12 & 13. (Same thing for 1 Tim 2)

This isn't the forum to elaborate, and I'm not really interested in doing so anyway given all of the drama that this topic usually stirs up. I guess if someone is interested enough they can PM me and I'll respond when I have the time to explain adequately.
 
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-Sasha-

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This is not, strictly speaking, a debate forum, but a place for sharing the fruits of our personal reflections and so on.

So - within the purpose of this forum - all I can say is that God called me to ministry, and that call overrides all the arguments about why God supposedly couldn't or wouldn't do that. It would be wrong to refuse to yield to God's way in that call, as in anything else.

I think a lot of the angst with this topic hinges on our understanding of "authority," and what authority we give our ministers in the first place. I'd say that what Scripture excludes women from are unhealthy exercises of authority which men shouldn't be engaging in, either.
What does it mean to be called by God to ministry?
 
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Paidiske

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What does it mean to be called by God to ministry?

I think it's different for each person, because each person is unique, and the call of God on their life is unique.

I can write about my experience of vocation, if that's what you're asking, but I'm not sure if that's exactly what you mean?
 
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-Sasha-

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I think it's different for each person, because each person is unique, and the call of God on their life is unique.

I can write about my experience of vocation, if that's what you're asking, but I'm not sure if that's exactly what you mean?
That would be great, I was just trying to understand what you meant!
 
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Paidiske

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That would be great, I was just trying to understand what you meant!

Looking back, I think God had been calling me into ministry long before I recognised it. I always had a pull towards helping other people, but I didn't necessarily know what to do about it (tried to study medicine, didn't get the marks, kind of bumbled around in science not sure what I was going to do with it; that sort of thing).

And - to cut a long story short - eventually I ended up praying, really quite fed up and exasperated, and saying to God, "You know me! You know what I should be doing, better than anyone! You made me, you know my strengths and my weaknesses, well here it is, all of it, just tell me what I'm supposed to do!"

And I felt very clearly that God's answer was, "If you're really offering me all of it, then come and serve me."

And in some ways that is the most profound spiritual moment of my life, because I'd been abused as a kid, I'd been depressed and anxious (was later diagnosed with PTSD), I had been suicidal, I pretty much believed I was worthless... but here was God saying I wasn't worthless, I had something worthy to offer even God; all of me, for who I was.

Anyway. Even then that wasn't a clear direction, because there are countless ways to serve God; but I went to someone in my church whose role it was to help people discern their vocations, and he suggested that I should do a programme we have called a "year of discernment," which takes us through all sorts of different kinds of ministry and gets us reflecting with a mentor about what might be right for us, etc.

And the whole way through I didn't necessarily think I would get ordained, but I said to God that I would knock on the door, and if he didn't want me there, not to open it. But it seemed right and I applied and the doors kept opening; I was accepted as an ordination candidate, I did all the studies, I was affirmed through the ongoing review processes etc. And eventually I was ordained.

And what matters to me most about that is that I believe God holds out the possibility of that same love and affirmation and joy I knew when I felt a call, to everyone; not a call to the same thing, but a call to the unique life he created and gifted them for. And a lot of what I want in ministry is to help people have the relationship with God where they can find that vocation and live it out in love and joy and peace.
 
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Christsfreeservant

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As well balanced and highly articulated as always, Sue. Thank you for sharing. Soli Deo Gloria
Thank you. You are welcome. And, all glory to God! I appreciate your comment.
 
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Christsfreeservant

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I think this summarizes your post and it's a fair point. Prophesying and preaching are not the same though. When they speak of prophesying in the Bible they literally mean prophesying.

This topic has been attempted several times already but the feminists always crash the thread and beat their chest. Some members of this forum attend churches in which they actually allow women to take on positions of authority. The only churches in my area I know of which allow this kind of thing are New Age and apostate churches.

Thank you. As soon as I have time (moving week for us), I will respond back about the preaching and prophesying, but let me ask you to please share your definitions of both and how you believe they differ one from the other. Thanks!
 
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Christsfreeservant

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To those who heed Scripture the issue should not even be up for debate. It was unthinkable for a woman to speak at all in the Jewish synagogues and Jesus never challenged that at all. God loves and respects women equally to men, but He has not delegated authority to women to speak His Word in the assembly of His saints- because speaking in such a context is inherently authoritative- speaking in other places and contexts is not necessarily out of line for a woman, but in the churches it is surely out of line. The principles of Headship were established at the creation of man so this is an unchanging principle that transcends culture. The Scripture is too clear: 1 Corinthians 14:34-35 "Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience as also saith the law. And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church."

Let me ask you a question then. God has obviously given women the gift of prophesying, which is described for us in 1 Co. 14, and obviously women in the NT did prophesy in public, and we are all encouraged to prophesy, and prophecy is for the church, for the building up of the body of Christ. The church, as well, is believers in Jesus Christ. We, the people of God, are the church. So, if women can't prophecy in the church (the collective body of Christ), and prophecy is for the church, for the building up of the body of Christ, then where can they prophesy which will be for the building up of the body of Christ? Where do you think they prophesied in the New Testament?
 
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royal priest

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Thank you. You are welcome. And, all glory to God! I appreciate your comment.
Your diligent use of God given writing skills for the edification of God's people is commendable especially in light of this post on the ecclesiastic role of women.
This is such a delicate issue in our age of feminism and it's influence on the modern church.
May the Lord continue to enable you to honor Him with the gifts He has bestowed upon you.
 
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Christsfreeservant

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We must look at the whole of the Word. God’s hierarchy is revealed throughout the bible. He created Adam and gave him dominion. He knew Eve was next. That wasn’t a surprise. If He wanted her in that role He’d have taken her rib instead of Adam’s.

Abraham is called the father of faith not Sarah.
Joseph was sent to preserve the Israelites. Not Dinah.
Moses was sent to deliver the Israelites. Not Miriam and she wasn’t made the High Priest either.

God chose one woman and several men to be judges.
But when they asked for a king He chose men to occupy that role.

And when Christ chose disciples and His rock He selected 12 men. He could have added women to the ranks but He didn’t.

That doesn’t underscore our place and role in God’s kingdom. But a hierarchy always has a commander and subordinates who assist with the mission.

There is no biblical precedent for women occupying places of authority consistently throughout the bible. With the numerous opportunities He had to put a woman in that place He chose a man in nearly every instance.

There are 12 Tribes for Israel. But Jacob had 13 children. Christ ratified that order by selecting 12 disciples. Their gender is no coincidence nor is the omission.

I never suggested that a woman should be placed in a position of authority over men. I agree that women are to be in submission to men. I agree that there is a proper order for things done in the church, and that it is critical that all people, male or female, follow the proper order and that they submit to the proper authorities with regard to the spiritual authority assigned by God to those in authority within the church. We are not to submit to sin, though. This was my concluding paragraph:

Lastly, I believe it all comes down to submission to the authorities within the church. If women are given permission to speak, and it is done in proper order, and if it is done in the right way, for the upbuilding of the body of Christ, then they should be allowed to speak. But, they are not to usurp authority over the men nor to cause a disturbance in the congregation, and they are not to instruct men in the sense of being over men in authority. But, they are to remain in submission and in proper order, and then they can speak as they are called upon to speak, as God gifts them to speak.
 
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Christsfreeservant

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This is not, strictly speaking, a debate forum, but a place for sharing the fruits of our personal reflections and so on.

So - within the purpose of this forum - all I can say is that God called me to ministry, and that call overrides all the arguments about why God supposedly couldn't or wouldn't do that. It would be wrong to refuse to yield to God's way in that call, as in anything else.

I think a lot of the angst with this topic hinges on our understanding of "authority," and what authority we give our ministers in the first place. I'd say that what Scripture excludes women from are unhealthy exercises of authority which men shouldn't be engaging in, either.

Thank you, Paidiske, for sharing your thoughts on this subject. I also read your response regarding your calling. I identify with you in some respects, such as your childhood, and your seeking God for what purpose he had for you.
 
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Christsfreeservant

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I think you are very much on the right track with your lead up. I actually preached directly on this topic about a month ago. I did some pretty extensive study in preparation. God actually lead me to an alternate explanation (for lack of a better term) for 1 Cor 14:34-35, which makes a TON of sense (to me) given the context of not only chapter 14 but also 12 & 13. (Same thing for 1 Tim 2)

This isn't the forum to elaborate, and I'm not really interested in doing so anyway given all of the drama that this topic usually stirs up. I guess if someone is interested enough they can PM me and I'll respond when I have the time to explain adequately.
Topher, Thank you for what you shared here. Yes, I would love to hear what you learned. I will PM you.
 
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Your diligent use of God given writing skills for the edification of God's people is commendable especially in light of this post on the ecclesiastic role of women.
This is such a delicate issue in our age of feminism and it's influence on the modern church.
May the Lord continue to enable you to honor Him with the gifts He has bestowed upon you.
Royal Priest, Thank you so much for your kind and thoughtful words. All glory goes to God!
 
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Romans 8

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Thank you. As soon as I have time (moving week for us), I will respond back about the preaching and prophesying, but let me ask you to please share your definitions of both and how you believe they differ one from the other. Thanks!

Prophecy is revelation from the Holy Spirit. Teaching and Preaching is the exposition of the bible and its verses. Preaching the Word is always based on scripture. Prophecy is a gift of the Holy Spirit. All Christians have the ability to prophesy:

"King James Bible
And it shall come to pass in the last days, saith God, I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh: and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, and your young men shall see visions, and your old men shall dream dreams.
 
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