The Two Witnesses

Maria Billingsley said:

Jesus Christ of Nazareth made it very simple for us.

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I guess the Lord inspired roughly 750,000 words to distract us from John 3:16, Romans 5:8, 6:23, etc.?

throughfireytrial said:

One need not rely on these numbers either...their meaning, however can be perceived and that only because as you say we have the in-dwelling Holy Spirit if we are Christians.

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What, then, does it mean to live not by bread alone, "but by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God?" (Matthew 4:4)

David Wright said:

I guess the Lord inspired roughly 750,000 words to distract us from John 3:16, Romans 5:8, 6:23, etc.?

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You can make the Gospel as simple or as complicated as you like. Best to know the thief on the cross and many after him believed in Jesus Christ of Nazareth only with no man made theological systems,doctrines and traditions that cause division among The Body.
Blessings

David Wright said:

What, then, does it mean to live not by bread alone, "but by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God?" (Matthew 4:4)

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You can only live by what you understand...anything else would be reckless.
Matthew 12:10-12:
He replied, “Because the knowledge of the secrets of the kingdom of heaven has been given to you, but not to them. Whoever has will be given more, and they will have an abundance. Whoever does not have, even what they have will be taken from them.
Luke 12:47-48:
“The servant who knows the master’s will and does not get ready or does not do what the master wants will be beaten with many blows. But the one who does not know and does things deserving punishment will be beaten with few blows. From everyone who has been given much, much will be demanded; and from the one who has been entrusted with much, much more will be asked.
It is obvious that Christ bestows a measure of the gifts to each man..each proportioned exactly as He desires.
Re-read the sections on the gifts to the Body...we members are not all the same in wisdom and knowledge.

David Wright said:

hitler and lol do not go together in any polite discussion, Friend.

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There's really no way to politely discuss about the Two Witnesses if we really to wish to understand them.

They will kill many and will be hated by everyone.

If you don't think that's not a problem then you're not getting the message, this is why I have to bring Hitler into the discussion to make everyone understand how those days will be like.

timewerx said:

There's really no way to politely discuss about the Two Witnesses if we really to wish to understand them.

They will kill many and will be hated by everyone.

If you don't think that's not a problem then you're not getting the message, this is why I have to bring Hitler into the discussion to make everyone understand how those days will be like.

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Oh, I'm getting the message, all right. You see, I studied the message in great depth 29 years ago, without any mingling of Hitler and humor involved. If you feel like reading my earlier posts, you'll see that I went so far as to do extensive research into the French Revolution for answers. France is only now beginning to experience a degree of relief from the curse she brought down upon herself in her profane rebellion against the God of Heaven.

David Wright said:

France is only now beginning to experience a degree of relief from the curse she brought down upon herself in her profane rebellion against the God of Heaven.

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I presume the rebellion against the King making church of choice at the time is what you are talking about.. not God.

Jen35 said:

Well who are they

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My best guess..

There are two men who never died an earthly death. The bible says that it is appointed unto man once to die.... SO

Elijah and Enoch are the logical choices.

JacksBratt said:

My best guess..

There are two men who never died an earthly death. The bible says that it is appointed unto man once to die.... SO

Elijah and Enoch are the logical choices.

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Makes sense otherwise no resurrection to the Kingdom.

I

Jen35 said:

I can see why this world and people become divided...so much error and stuff spread everywhere.. I just think this whole dame world is misinformed... Just spreading crap everywhere and having no idea what they are talking about

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Agree with you...just last night I was having a conversation with a man and it soon became about politics and he said Trump is a racist. I asked what makes you say that? Do you know him or have any personal encounters with him? What has he said or done that was racist....
He couldn't name anything, then said he would Google it or find it on YouTube.
I said don't be a social media puppet that repeats what they hear as in monkey see...monkey do.
It's not just politics, it's religion as well.
So many Christians simply repeat what they are taught in church without reading the Word for themselves.

Heart2Soul said:

So many Christians simply repeat what they are taught in church without reading the Word for themselves.

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That is why they are in someone's church. They are often followers, not discerning. Looking to belong to a club free of fear of having to take charge..

Maria Billingsley said:

I take the two witnesses spiritually. The two witnesses represent the witnessing church till the end. Namely the regenerated Jews and the grafted Gentiles the only one's who can testify to the Gospel. Additionally, much of the literary style is symbolic for example, "fire from their mouth", the word of God. "clothed in sackcloth", preaching the message of repentance, etc.
Blessings

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mariabillingsley,

1. The problem with this idea of the Two Witnesses being the witnessing remnant of the church is not in scriptural context.

2. The church of this age is not in the tribulation Revelation 4:1; 5:9-10; 11:18; and 19::7-10.
Also, the time of Jacob’s trouble is for Israel’s restoration fulfillment’s involving the gifts and callings Jeremiah 30:7-10; Daniel 12:1; Matthew 24:21; Romans 11:25-29. Read Zechariah 14:1:9.

3. Revelation 11:1-2 is about the temple being built in the tribulation and the altar where the sacrifice is given and those who worship in the temple which is in connection to the Jewish nation of Israel and the Abomination of Desolation.
Daniel 9:27; Matthew 24:15.
Daniel 11:31; the Abomination that make the desolate.
Historically, Antioch Epiphanies committed this AOD.
2 Thessalonians 2:3; the son of perdition who will be the antichrist of Revelation 13 who will commit the future AOD and sitting in the temple exalting himself above all that is called God or that is worshipped so that he as God, showing himself that he is God.

3. The literary style being symbolic for fire from their mouth as the word of God is conjecture and opinion.

4. Clothed in sackcloth represents repentance which is in connection with Israel not the church for the gates of hell shall not prevail against the church and the Jews have to be purified by the time of Jacob’s trouble Daniel 9:24.

5. These 2 witnesses are men which are most likely Enoch and Elijah.
Enoch was translated to Heaven Genesis 5:24; and prophesied the Second Coming Of Christ executing judgement upon the ungodly.
Elijah was caught up in a whirlwind in a chariot of fire 2:11. Elijah is to appear before the great and dreadful day Malachi 4:5.
They both have not died and it is appointed unto men once to die but after this the judgement Hebrews 9:27.
Enoch was born before the days of degradation and Elijah was obviously caught up to Heaven to await his time before the great and dreadful day of the Lord.
They are the two anointed ones that stand by the Lord of the whole earth Zechariah 3:14.
Jerry Kelso

jerry kelso said:

mariabillingsley,

1. The problem with this idea of the Two Witnesses being the witnessing remnant of the church is not in scriptural context.

2. The church of this age is not in the tribulation Revelation 4:1; 5:9-10; 11:18; and 19::7-10.
Also, the time of Jacob’s trouble is for Israel’s restoration fulfillment’s involving the gifts and callings Jeremiah 30:7-10; Daniel 12:1; Matthew 24:21; Romans 11:25-29. Read Zechariah 14:1:9.

3. Revelation 11:1-2 is about the temple being built in the tribulation and the altar where the sacrifice is given and those who worship in the temple which is in connection to the Jewish nation of Israel and the Abomination of Desolation.
Daniel 9:27; Matthew 24:15.
Daniel 11:31; the Abomination that make the desolate.
Historically, Antioch Epiphanies committed this AOD.
2 Thessalonians 2:3; the son of perdition who will be the antichrist of Revelation 13 who will commit the future AOD and sitting in the temple exalting himself above all that is called God or that is worshipped so that he as God, showing himself that he is God.

3. The literary style being symbolic for fire from their mouth as the word of God is conjecture and opinion.

4. Clothed in sackcloth represents repentance which is in connection with Israel not the church for the gates of hell shall not prevail against the church and the Jews have to be purified by the time of Jacob’s trouble Daniel 9:24.

5. These 2 witnesses are men which are most likely Enoch and Elijah.
Enoch was translated to Heaven Genesis 5:24; and prophesied the Second Coming Of Christ executing judgement upon the ungodly.
Elijah was caught up in a whirlwind in a chariot of fire 2:11. Elijah is to appear before the great and dreadful day Malachi 4:5.
They both have not died and it is appointed unto men once to die but after this the judgement Hebrews 9:27.
Enoch was born before the days of degradation and Elijah was obviously caught up to Heaven to await his time before the great and dreadful day of the Lord.
They are the two anointed ones that stand by the Lord of the whole earth Zechariah 3:14.
Jerry Kelso

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I am not a futurist Dispensationalist. So our views will be conflicting.
Blessings

Maria Billingsley said:

I am not a futurist Dispensationalist. So our views will be conflicting.
Blessings

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mariabillingsley,

1. That is obvious and fine.

2. It is not about merely being a school of thought.
It is about proper Biblical heremeneutics, context and reconciliation of scriptures together on a given subject across the board, precept upon precept. Jerry Kelso

jerry kelso said:

mariabillingsley,

1. That is obvious and fine.

2. It is not about merely being a school of thought.
It is about proper Biblical heremeneutics, context and reconciliation of scriptures together on a given subject across the board, precept upon precept. Jerry Kelso

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Yes I understand, I was in your position many years ago. I finally read scripture without this lens and found that this theological system had many errors. You may want to do the same. Take the lens off.
Blessings

D.A. Wright said:

There are two basic Biblical hermeneutic models: Proof-texting and preponderance-of-evidence. This is where we get our modern method of legal interpretation. Neither is foolproof. Together, they are more effective than when used independently or exclusively. The Holy Spirit is essential in interpreting His Word. He is the Great Tie Breaker. Unfortunately, His invocation is neglected widely in both civil and religious concerns of law (Christ Himself did often refer to the Scriptures as "the Law," by the way).

The study of Biblical numerology itself is very strong evidence for the divine inspiration of Scripture. No group of men separated by so many factors could have devised the magnificent harmony of figures contained in the Bible. It is, however, largely dependent on the preponderance-of-evidence method. Off-hand, I cannot bring to mind any specific text that establishes a system of numbers as being divinely-inspired.

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d.a.wright,

1. All the Bible is divinely inspired 2 Timothy 3:16; 1 Peter 1:21.

2. Numbers like 1 meaning unity for we are to be one in Christ Ephesians 4 and John 17 to be in unity of singleness.

3. Stands for the Godhead like in 1 John

4. Directional such as the four corners of the earth Matthew 24

6. The number of man such as being created on the 6th day and 666 as incomplete which is one under 7 which is complete and perfect.

7. Complete and perfection

8. 1000 years in Revelation

9. They are literal in some cases and symbolic in others and both in other passages.

1. They can be seen as a pattern.
Depending on what your specific definition of divinely inspired it can be shown in the scripture. Jerry Kelso

timothyu said:

That is why they are in someone's church. They are often followers, not discerning. Looking to belong to a club free of fear of having to take charge..

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Or perhaps just following the counsel/command of Hebrews 10:25, and consequently being influenced by their peers, as human beings will tend to do.

Maria Billingsley said:

Yes I understand, I was in your position many years ago. I finally read scripture without this lens and found that this theological system had many errors. You may want to do the same. Take the lens off.
Blessings

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mariabillingsley,

1. It sounds like you are assuming I learned the Dispensational system and just believed everything about it or it may have sounded more sense than other positions.
You being in my position is unlikely, that is if you think Dispensationalism is evil or way off base.

2. I doubt if any system is perfect. I don’t agree with every single point of Dispensationalism.

3. Most people that don’t like Dispensationalism mostly misunderstand it and falsely accuse their positions such as the two people’s doctrine and the plan b accusation. This is pure ignorance of the scripture.

4. I can deduce from your position that you want to allegorize scripture without understanding the correct context which doesn’t need dispensationalism to understand this error in interpretation.

5. One can believe whatever but one should be fair in proper biblical exegesis.
Be blessed but you might rethink your position about taking the lens off statement. Jerry Kelso

jerry kelso said:

d.a.wright,

1. All the Bible is divinely inspired 2 Timothy 3:16; 1 Peter 1:21.

2. Numbers like 1 meaning unity for we are to be one in Christ Ephesians 4 and John 17 to be in unity of singleness.

3. Stands for the Godhead like in 1 John

4. Directional such as the four corners of the earth Matthew 24

6. The number of man such as being created on the 6th day and 666 as incomplete which is one under 7 which is complete and perfect.

7. Complete and perfection

8. 1000 years in Revelation

9. They are literal in some cases and symbolic in others and both in other passages.

1. They can be seen as a pattern.
Depending on what your specific definition of divinely inspired it can be shown in the scripture. Jerry Kelso

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Can't agree fully with all of those. I actually don't understand any of the others except for #4, #7, and #3 which seems a bit narrow in scope. I find the number three to be a broader, more comprehensive version of the number seven. But then I'm not an expert in the field. I don't have a specific definition of "divinely inspired," because over the years I've had to revise my narrow understanding of it so many times.

Socrates is believed to have said: "I am the wisest man alive, for I know one thing, and that is that I know nothing." (Of course he was most likely speaking from an existentialist perspective and not from a sense of humility and awe toward God.)

jerry kelso said:

mariabillingsley,

1. It sounds like you are assuming I learned the Dispensational system and just believed everything about it or it may have sounded more sense than other positions.
You being in my position is unlikely, that is if you think Dispensationalism is evil or way off base.

2. I doubt if any system is perfect. I don’t agree with every single point of Dispensationalism.

3. Most people that don’t like Dispensationalism mostly misunderstand it and falsely accuse their positions such as the two people’s doctrine and the plan b accusation. This is pure ignorance of the scripture.

4. I can deduce from your position that you want to allegorize scripture without understanding the correct context which doesn’t need dispensationalism to understand this error in interpretation.

5. One can believe whatever but one should be fair in proper biblical exegesis.
Be blessed but you might rethink your position about taking the lens off statement. Jerry Kelso

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You know and assume much, don't you?