Can Calvinism reconcile God ordaining Adam to sin, and still allow Adam to have a free will?

He also created Adam with a moral conscience. That is what separates us from the beasts of the earth. A cat can eat its young or play with a mouse until it dies because it has no moral conscience. Man was created with one. That is why Adam's sin, in the face of all his experience with God, is so abominable. While he didn't know the experience of evil until he sinned he did know that his choice was evil.

Dr. Jack said:

God is sovereign, but in that sovereignty God chose to reveal Himself to man, then let man respond to Him. How does that not glorify God?

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God didn't hand over His sovereignty to man..

man has personal responsibility for his actions not a libertarian free will. you say this is not what your espousing, but in your words it is.

Dr. Jack said:

God is sovereign, but in that sovereignty God chose to reveal Himself to man, then let man respond to Him. How does that not glorify God?

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It would if God were a man. But He isn't and that is why He must be God in all of His character. The Angels know nothing of mercy except as they see it being given to us.

Ephesians 3:9-11 (KJV) 9 And to make all [men] see what [is] the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ: 10 To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly [places] might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God, 11 According to the eternal purpose which he purposed in Christ Jesus our Lord:

Dr. Jack said:

The WCF is very clear with its use of "decree".

I agree that God has a purpose. But a purpose is never used to bring about sin. Allowing sin, and proposing to have sin are two completely different concepts.

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Agreed. But did He purpose to allow sin in His wisdom in order to glorify Himself in mercy.

Exodus 33:17-19 (KJV) 17 And the LORD said unto Moses, I will do this thing also that thou hast spoken: for thou hast found grace in my sight, and I know thee by name. 18 And he said, I beseech thee, shew me thy glory. 19 And he said, I will make all my goodness pass before thee, and I will proclaim the name of the LORD before thee; and will be gracious to whom I will be gracious, and will shew mercy on whom I will shew mercy.

Dr. Jack said:

The WCF is very clear with its use of "decree".

I agree that God has a purpose. But a purpose is never used to bring about sin. Allowing sin, and proposing to have sin are two completely different concepts.

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God from all eternity did, by the most wise and holy counsel of his own will, freely and unchangeably ordain whatsoever comes to pass;a yet so as thereby neither is God the author of sin,b nor is violence offered to the will of the creatures, nor is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established.c

a. Rom 9:15, 18; 11:33; Eph 1:11; Heb 6:17. • b. James 1:13, 17; 1 John 1:5. • c. Prov 16:33; Mat 17:12; John 19:11; Acts 2:23; 4:27-28.

2. Although God knows whatsoever may or can come to pass upon all supposed conditions,a yet hath he not decreed anything because he foresaw it as future, or as that which would come to pass upon such conditions.b

a. 1 Sam 23:11-12; Matthew 11:21,
23; Acts 15:18. • b. Rom 9:11, 13, 16, 18.

3. By the decree of God, for the manifestation of his glory, some men and angels a. are predestinated unto everlasting life, and others fore-ordained to everlasting death.b

a. Mat 25:41; 1 Tim 5:21. • b. Prov 16:4; Rom 9:22-23; Eph 1:5-6.

4. These angels and men, thus predestinated and fore-ordained, are particularly and unchangeably designed; and their number is so certain and definite that it can not be either increased or diminished.a

a. John 13:18; 2 Tim 2:19.

5. Those of mankind that are predestinated unto life, God, before the foundation of the world was laid, according to his eternal and immutable purpose, and the secret counsel and good pleasure of his will, hath chosen in Christ, unto everlasting glory,a out of his mere free grace and love, without any foresight of faith or good works, or perseverance in either of them, or any other thing in the creature, as conditions, or causes moving him thereunto;b and all to the praise of his glorious grace.c

a. Rom 8:30; Eph 1:4, 9, 11; 1 Thes 5:9; 2 Tim 1:9. • b. Rom 9:11, 13, 16; Eph 1:4, 9. • c. Eph 1:6, 12.

6. As God hath appointed the elect unto glory, so hath he, by the eternal and most free purpose of his will, fore-ordained all the means thereunto.aWherefore they who are elected, being fallen in Adam, are redeemed by Christ,b are effectually called unto faith in Christ by his Spirit working in due season; are justified, adopted, sanctified,c and kept by his power through faith unto salvation.d Neither are any other redeemed by Christ, effectually called, justified, adopted, sanctified, and saved, but the elect only.e

a. Eph 1:4-5; Eph 2:10; 2 Thes 2:13; 1 Pet 1:2. • b. 1 Thes 5:9-10; Titus 2:14. • c. Rom 8:30; Eph 1:5; 2 Thes 2:13. • d. 1 Pet 1:5. • e. John 6:64-65; 8:47; 10:26; 17:9; Rom 8:28-39; 1 John 2:19.

7. The rest of mankind God was pleased, according to the unsearchable counsel of his own will, whereby he extendeth or withholdeth mercy as he pleaseth, for the glory of his sovereign power over his creatures, to pass by, and to ordain them to dishonor and wrath for their sin, to the praise of his glorious justice.a

a. Mat 11:25-26; Rom 9:17-18, 21-22; 2 Tim 2:19-20; 1 Pet 2:8; Jude 1:4.

8. The doctrine of this high mystery of predestination is to be handled with special prudence and care,a that men attending the will of God revealed in his Word, and yielding obedience thereunto, may, from the certainty of their effectual vocation, be assured of their eternal election.b So shall this doctrine afford matter of praise, reverence, and admiration of God;cand of humility, diligence, and abundant consolation to all that sincerely obey the gospel.d

a. Deut 29:29; Rom 9:20. • b. 2 Pet 1:10. • c. Rom 11:33; Eph 1:6. • d. Luke 10:20; Rom 8:33; 11:5-6, 20; 2 Pet 1:10.

Hazelelponi said:

I think purpose and decree mean the same thing.. it's the way they spoke /used english way back hundreds of years ago.. many things have taken on different overtones given the way the language is used today.

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I disagree. I have read an enormous amount of the old writers and they knew what they intended. It isn't a matter of semantics with them.

I always accepted the term decree up until now. Now I see that they were going beyond Scripture. I have seen it in them before.

Dr. Jack said:

No, you are incorrect.

God gives me the truth, and God allows me to hear the lie. God is ever present to answer my questions. But I must choose who is telling the truth.

That isn't handing over sovereignty.

In Roman's 1 God clearly states that He has revealed Himself to even the ungodly. (Just read 18 - 21.)

Look what it says! Even His eternal Godhead!

How much clearer can God say this? Man chooses to ignore the manifold witness of the creation! It isn't because God doesn't allow the ungodly to see Him; it's because the ungodly refuse to see Him.

That is why they are without excuse!

The sovereign God revealed Himself, and they closed their eyes.

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when I followed a different faith I didn't see God, I couldn't see Him.. I was so blind with all this faith in myself, my thoughts, my actions..

if it weren't for God I would still be lost. it took a sledge hammer (figuratively) upside my head.. and the only explanation I have for it rests in Him.. not me.. not some overwhelming ability of mine to choose but that for His Glory HE chose me...

Dr. Jack said:

Yes, God does purpose to allow sin, but that is not the same as actually proposing for sin to occur.

So in the case of Adam, God purposed to ALLOW sin, but that isn't what determinism is about.

Determinism is when God purposed Adam TO SIN, that God could, and would be the Redeemer.

(Creating a problem in order to fix it.)

God did not create the problem, but He knew the problem would occur, and had a plan in motion to fix it. HUGE difference.

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Yes in the sense that you describe. But God's purpose for sin to enter the world and seeing to it, by whatever means His wisdom dictated, is not the same as Him forcing His will on Adam. Yes Adam did exactly as God intended but he wasn't forced into it.

God sovereignly ruling all things to bring about His purpose in Christ in no way makes Him culpable in Adam's sin.

Determinism simply means that God gets what He wants.

I am sorry but I have to get ready for my youngest daughter's 39th birthday party, I forget how many 39ths she's had. Boy do I feel old.

I will leave you to prepare your heart to preach tomorrow and take this up again later.

All my love in Christ, twin.

Dr. Jack said:

I don't think you're getting the point of Romans 1.

It isn't about "choosing God" at all. It's about accepting the truth and surrendering to it.

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Romans 1 is about man's moral responsibility before God. Paul goes further in his argument in the next chapter.

Dr. Jack said:

Not true.

In determinism is the concept of necessity. All that will happen must out of necessity depend upon what has happened.

A simple example would be, in order for you to exist, out of necessity, you must have both of your parents. This concept of necessity continues to move through history, (in reverse of course), to necessitate every event that ever let to this point; all of the way back to Adam.

Hence, it isn't a matter of a random act occurring; but rather, each specific event must, out of necessity have occurred exactly when, and how it occurred, or all future events would be altered.

Therefore, in determinism, the sin of Adam in the Garden of Eden needed to occur specifically when, and how it occurred, with no possible differences.


This means that when God "purposed" the sin of Adam to occur, every logistical possibility had to be determined in detail.

This means that God had to control the very thoughts, and heart of Adam. How does that take place without God being culpable?

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Of course your argument is based on Adam not having a will of his own. That is just not the case. Adam could have chosen to let Eve die and trusted God to give him another helpmeet. But Adam freely chose to die with her. God did not coerce, force or make Adam do so. Yet at the same time He created Adam with a will that would choose Eve over God. He was in perfect control as to Satan deceiving Eve and putting that choice before Adam. Adam entered into sin with his eyes wide open. God is not culpable because He didn't force Adam against his will. God got what He purposed and Adam got what he wanted, except that he didn't yet know of the redemption purposed by God until Gen. 3:16.

If God didn't force Adam He is not responsible for Adam's sin. Determinism is God working all things together for the good of His people. For them who are the called according to His purpose.

Dr. Jack said:

In my first year of Bible college, I was told, "You can't build Bible doctrine on what the Bible doesn't say".

This is what God told Moses in Numbers 21 ...

21:8 And the LORD said unto Moses, Make thee a fiery serpent, and set it upon a pole: and it shall come to pass, that every one that is bitten, when he looketh upon it, shall live. Numbers

Notice, the "he" (when "he" looketh) points back to its antecedent "every one" ("every one that is bitten). This clearly identifies WHO the provision was given for. What you refuse to acknowledge is quite simple ... Those who died, died because they refused to believe the Word of God. Yet, there was equal provision graciously given to "every one" that was bitten.

There is NOTHING in the words of verse 8 that give any indication whatsoever that only SOME of those who were bitten were provided for.

The narrative does not say that God only provided for those who would look; while it does say that the provision was only EFFECTUAL to those who would look.

Having provision for, and having effectual provision for are two different things. I often illustrate this by sharing a simple example.

If I prepare a meal for 100 people, and then go in ite people off the street, but only 10 of the 100 people I invite show up; it doesn't mean the provision wasn't there for the other 90 people, it means the other 90 people weren't there to enjoy the provision.

God clearly told Moses to provide for every one that was bitten. But only those who looked enjoyed the provision.

Hence, your "interpretation" and all applications built thereon are false.



I don't have to refute what God, by His words have already refuted!

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Your missing The point of what Christ says about this very thing in John 6 about whom God is providing an Atonement for their sins. Atonement means their sins are forgiven them.

Unless someone believes, Christ says most assuredly they die in their sins if they do not believe that I am HE, so they have no atonement of their sins.

Example of election, Jesus tells the people ALL that the Father gives to Him WILL COME to Him.

Example of eternal salvation, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out.

Example that this is God's will, not that Christ came to do His own will, it was God's will to elect and save certain people and only them and that none of them be lost. Again the emphasis on only for those God has given to Christ, who because God gave them, they came to Christ in faith and believed.

For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me.
39 This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day.

Then we read, Christ says about man, but it implies no ability for them to do that as only those God has given to Christ actually come to Christ. Verse 37 comes first.
40 And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day.”

Christ raised like that serpent on a pole Moses raises up, but the only ones who do actually look are the ones God chooses to live, as with most of them their bodies God scattered in the wilderness, because He was not pleased with them.
1 Corinthians 10:5 But with most of them God was not well pleased, for their bodies were scattered in the wilderness.

The slave does not abide in the House forever! Even thought they experience some of the goodness come from God, they remain a slave. If the Son makes you free, then you are free indeed.

John 8:34-36 New King James Version (NKJV)
34 Jesus answered them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, whoever commits sin is a slave of sin. 35 And a slave does not abide in the house forever, but a son abides forever. 36 Therefore if the Son makes you free, you shall be free indeed.

John 6
35 And Jesus said to them, “I am the bread of life. He who comes to Me shall never hunger, and he who believes in Me shall never thirst. 36 But I said to you that you have seen Me and yet do not believe. 37 All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out. 38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me. 39 This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day. 40 And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day.”

Dr. Jack said:

Let me make this brief. Atonement is a provision. Now I can provide for 100 people to come to a meal, but if only 10 show up, that doesn't mean the others weren't provided for; it means they refused to accept my provision. That is why God says in Romans that they are without excuse.

There is nothing in Numders 21:8, or in John 3 that limits God's provision to just those that believe. Limited Atonement is a man-made philosophical doctrine that contradicts every passage of Scripture that addresses God's provision for all of mankind.

I could give a multitude of examples to illustrate this simple truth.

But once again, this still doesn't address the problem of God determining Adam to sin in the Garden of Eden. Determinism always has a predetermined end result, which means that the person who does the "determining", also has a plan to insure that which has been determined will occur; which makes the person who "determines", as culpable as any agents he uses to fulfill his purpose. In some cases, the law could find the last agent not guilty, if he was unaware of 1) the intend of what was determined; or 2) the end result of what was determined.

In the case of Adam, there is no possible way Adam could have know that God would work in the entire set of circumstances to make absolutely certain the outcome. This makes God at least equally culpable.

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You have been wrong before, and wrong again. (Let me make that clear)
You refuse to believe what Christ has said, your filtering scripture through your own imagination of how you want things to be, not how they actually are in scripture.

Many are the verses in the OT for that word Atonement
And the Atonement was provided only for the people of Israel, or say His people through the blood of the offering. The world can not gain the atonement for their sins since they are not under the blood of Christ as they do not believe.

Deuteronomy 21:8 Provide atonement, O Lord, for Your people Israel, whom You have redeemed, and do not lay innocent blood to the charge of Your people Israel.’ And atonement shall be provided on their behalf for the blood.

Deuteronomy 32:43 “Rejoice, O Gentiles, with His people; For He will avenge the blood of His servants, And render vengeance to His adversaries; He will provide atonement for His land and His people.”

In the NT, we get the word propitiation. This is also not for the unbelieving world.
It says this propitiation *atonement* is by His blood through faith and the unbelieving world has no faith in His blood, that means no propitiation, no atonement, no forgiveness of their sins.

Romans 3

21 But now the righteousness of God apart from the law is revealed, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, 22 even the righteousness of God, through faith in Jesus Christ, to all and on all who believe. For there is no difference; 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, 25 whom God set forth as a propitiation by His blood, through faith, to demonstrate His righteousness, because in His forbearance God had passed over the sins that were previously committed, 26 to demonstrate at the present time His righteousness, that He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.