IS SALVATION CONDTIONAL WITH FREE WILL AND WHAT DOES IT MEAN TO BELIEVE?

redleghunter

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That is because multiple scriptures directly contradict your held doctrine. In order to formulate doctrine all of Scripture must somehow be reconciled with your view lest there be holes in your doctrine.
Is your systematic theology to create contradictions where none exist?
 
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Oldmantook

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Hi brother Oldmantook,

Some may have missed this as it is a little long for some (like mine). I have only just read this now and think it is well written and a there is a lot of truth in it (especially the section I am quoting from above). I just wanted to say thanks for sharing this.

It is interesting to note that there are many scriptures in the bible that follow this same writing style "IF THEN" present tense application being condtional in the present tense.

If you have some time we are actually discussing this same topic at the moment in another thread

IS SALVATION CONDTIONAL AND WHAT DOES IT MEAN TO BELIEVE?

These type of scripture warnings are written all through the OLD and NEW Testament scriptures.

God bless and thanks for sharing this. I enjoyed reading this today :oldthumbsup:
You're welcome as I agree with you. Ironically, I used to hold to the view of unconditional salvation/security as that is what I was taught in seminary by my professors - all of whom were Reformed in their theology. I simply believed what I was taught without really studying the subject in depth for myself. Over a period of years later did I come to realize that what I was taught was incorrect and I had a hard time unlearning what I initially learned. It is much harder to unlearn and learn, then learn correctly the first time. Cognitive dissonance and confirmation bias creep in making it difficult for us to perceive and understand that we may be holding on to doctrines that are not true - which is why we tend not to change our cherished beliefs.
 
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LoveGodsWord

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Does the Holy Spirit factor into this at all?

Just wondering what your view is on the conditions for receiving God's Spirit and what happens if we break these condtions outlined in God's Word?
 
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Oldmantook

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Now, take that thought and read through the earlier posts in our discussion. :)
The verse in question was not innocuous, but it was close in that it was not a call to action so much as a statement about the reality of things.
So again, I ask you. Do you deny that if a believer lives according to his flesh, he will spiritually die? A simple yes or no will suffice.
 
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LoveGodsWord

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You're welcome as I agree with you. Ironically, I used to hold to the view of unconditional salvation/security as that is what I was taught in seminary by my professors - all of whom were Reformed in their theology. I simply believed what I was taught without really studying the subject in depth for myself. Over a period of years later did I come to realize that what I was taught was incorrect and I had a hard time unlearning what I initially learned. It is much harder to unlearn and learn, then learn correctly the first time. Cognitive dissonance and confirmation bias creep in making it difficult for us to perceive and understand that we may be holding on to doctrines that are not true - which is why we tend not to change our cherished beliefs.

Thanks brother I edited my previous post you are quoting from. Too early in the morning my time and I had too many threads opened and lost my track. The key lesson here I believe is that we have to turn away from men and seek JESUS personally for his Spirit to be our guide and teacher. I see God guiding you to help others.

God bless brother.
 
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Albion

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Oldmantook, I thought that you at last got the point (at about posts 99 & 100), so don't you see the difference between the two sentences after all?

If you do, it explains why Romans 8:13 does not substantiate the claim that was made way back in the beginning of this. :)
 
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Oldmantook

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Is your systematic theology to create contradictions where none exist?
You keep avoiding the texts I cite. Why is that? You are the one who brought up Judas' example. I showed you from Scripture that Judas was given to Jesus by the Father, therefore he was one of the elect. Yet you ignore what I wrote instead of dealing with the text. Thanks for the discussion but don't bother replying as our discussion has become unfruitful (pun intended).
 
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redleghunter

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What does Ephesians 1 have anything to do with James 5:19-20? You avoid dealing with the text directly in order to cling to your belief but that is your prerogative.
You cited “down payment” or pledge from Ephesians 1.

13In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of God’s own possession, to the praise of His glory.


728. arrabón
Strong's Concordance
arrabón: an earnest (a part payment in advance for security)
Original Word: ἀρραβών, ῶνος, ὁ
Part of Speech: Noun, Masculine
Transliteration: arrabón
Phonetic Spelling: (ar-hrab-ohn')
Definition: an earnest (a part payment in advance for security)
Usage: an earnest, earnest-money, a large part of the payment, given in advance as a security that the whole will be paid afterwards.

Vine's Expository Dictionary of NT Words
<1,,728,arrabon>
originally, "earnest-money" deposited by the purchaser and forfeited if the purchase was not completed, was probably a Phoenician word, introduced into Greece. In general usage it came to denote "a pledge" or "earnest" of any sort; in the NT it is used only of that which is assured by God to believers; it is said of the Holy Spirit as the Divine "pledge" of all their future blessedness, 2 Corinthians 1:22; 5:5; in Ephesians 1:14; 4:30 particularly of their eternal inheritance.
 
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redleghunter

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I suggest you carefully read John 17 6:12. You will find that Judas was no different from the rest of the disciples. Judas and the others were GIVEN to Jesus by the Father. Jesus kept them in thy name. None was lost except for Judas because of his betrayal. One cannot betray someone else if they were not initially faithful in the first place. The Father is the one who elects and gives them to the Son. Unbelievers are never said to be of the elect. Therefore since Judas was given by the Father to Jesus, he was at one time saved/elected but lost his salvation because he was a thief and ultimately betrayed the Lord. Judas was attached to the vine, did not bear fruit because of his actions, was cut off and thrown into the fire.
No, Jesus said Judas was the betrayer and son of perdition so that the Scriptures would be fulfilled.
 
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Oldmantook

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I'm still waiting for an answer to post #97.

Have you figured out the difference between the two sentences?
In your example, the first sentence is a statement of fact without any conditions attached. The second is a statement of fact with a condition indicated by the the word "if." The first example occurs no matter what as one season follows the other, but what happens in the second example concerning the fragrance of one's clothes is conditioned by what he/she will do.

Your example is actually irrelevant I think. I suggest you reread or at least study for yourself what a Greek 1st class conditional sentence entails. In such sentence construction, the protasis for the sake of argument is assumed to BE TRUE. Therefore Paul warns the brother who IS LIVING ACCORDING TO THE FLESH, that HE WILL DIE. Unlike the question of whether or not one will change his clothes which is a possibility or probability, the Greek 1st class condition of the protasis does not allow for possibility or probability and instead assumes that the brother is indeed living according to the flesh. Hence he will die.

Again, based on this, do you believe a believer will spiritually die should he choose to live his life according to the flesh?
 
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Oldmantook

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You cited “down payment” or pledge from Ephesians 1.

13In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise, 14who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of God’s own possession, to the praise of His glory.


728. arrabón
Strong's Concordance
arrabón: an earnest (a part payment in advance for security)
Original Word: ἀρραβών, ῶνος, ὁ
Part of Speech: Noun, Masculine
Transliteration: arrabón
Phonetic Spelling: (ar-hrab-ohn')
Definition: an earnest (a part payment in advance for security)
Usage: an earnest, earnest-money, a large part of the payment, given in advance as a security that the whole will be paid afterwards.

Vine's Expository Dictionary of NT Words
<1,,728,arrabon>
originally, "earnest-money" deposited by the purchaser and forfeited if the purchase was not completed, was probably a Phoenician word, introduced into Greece. In general usage it came to denote "a pledge" or "earnest" of any sort; in the NT it is used only of that which is assured by God to believers; it is said of the Holy Spirit as the Divine "pledge" of all their future blessedness, 2 Corinthians 1:22; 5:5; in Ephesians 1:14; 4:30 particularly of their eternal inheritance.
Thank you for the discussion but we end here as it is evident that both of us hold to intractable views at this point and at least for me the discussion is no longer productive.
 
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Oldmantook

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No, Jesus said Judas was the betrayer and son of perdition so that the Scriptures would be fulfilled.
Indeed he betrayed; but you ignore the fact that Judas was of the elect - he was given to Jesus by the Father. The soteriological term "elect" is only descriptive of believers - never unbelievers. Thanks for the discussion.
 
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redleghunter

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Indeed he betrayed; but you ignore the fact that Judas was of the elect - he was given to Jesus by the Father. The soteriological term "elect" is only descriptive of believers - never unbelievers. Thanks for the discussion.
He was chosen to fulfill the Scriptures. Judas was the branch which never produced fruit thrown in the fire. He was the “Lord Lord, did we not do...”.

The ones the Father gave Jesus it is said not one perished.

John 17: KJV
12While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.​

A distinction is made. The ones who would not perish were given to Him.

Judas was chosen but not for preservation but destruction. To fulfill the Scriptures.
 
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Albion

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In your example, the first sentence is a statement of fact without any conditions attached. The second is a statement of fact with a condition indicated by the the word "if." The first example occurs no matter what as one season follows the other, but what happens in the second example concerning the fragrance of one's clothes is conditioned by what he/she will do.
That's right. Now translate that into the original point about Romans 8:13.
 
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LoveGodsWord

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I recognized that fact, but I could only base the reply on the verses that you gave us to consider.

Although they look, at first glance, to be all carrying out the idea you wanted us to see, they really are of two different kinds of "IF"s. Look closely at what the IF refers to.

This is very much in keeping with the difference between the OT and NT when it comes to the promises of salvation.

Not really brother, the "IF's" as presented in the OP for both the OLD and NEW COVENANT scriptures are condiional clauses to receiving the promises of God's salvation and eternal life. Both sets of scriptures follow this exact same theme. They are not a different set of IFs at all but are all salvation related condtional promises.
 
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Albion

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Both sets of scriptures follow this exact same theme. They are not a different set of IFs at all but are all salvation related condtional promises.
Yet they do not. You can say that they are all "salvation-related," which is really broad, but what they address about salvation in particular is not the same.

That is why I suggested reading them more closely. I know, of course, that some people will not do that, but maybe some others will.
 
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LoveGodsWord

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Yet they do not. You can say that they are all "salvation-related," which is really broad, but what they address about salvation in particular is not the same.

That is why I suggested reading them more closely. I know, of course, that some people will not do that, but maybe some others will.

Well that is not true. All I am hearing now is your words denying God's. What do the scriptures say?

God's forgiveness is conditional...

I JOHN 1:9 [9], IF (conditional) we confess our sins, he is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

MATTHEW 6:14-15 [14], For IF (conditional) you forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you: [15], But IF (conditional) you forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.

Being a disciple of JESUS is conditional...

MATTHEW 16:24 Then said Jesus to his disciples, IF (conditional) any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.

Conditons for inheriting eternal life...

MATTHEW 19:16-19 [16], And, behold, one came and said to him, Good Master, what good thing shall I DO, that I may have eternal life? [17], And he said to him, Why call you me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but IF (conditional) you will enter into life, keep the commandments. [18], He said to him, Which? Jesus said, You shall do no murder, You shall not commit adultery, You shall not steal, You shall not bear false witness, [19], Honor your father and your mother: and, You shall love your neighbor as yourself.

JOHN 6:51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven: IF (conditional) any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.

JOHN 8:24 I said therefore to you, that you shall die in your sins: for IF (conditional) you believe not that I am he, you shall die in your sins.

JOHN 8:31-32 [31], Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, IF (conditional) you continue in my word, then are you my disciples indeed;[32], And you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

JOHN 8:39 They answered and said to him, Abraham is our father. Jesus said to them, IF you were Abraham's children, you would do the works of Abraham.

JOHN 8:51 Truly, truly, I say to you, IF (conditional) a man keeps my saying, he shall never see death.

God only hears those who are following His Word...

JOHN 9:31 Now we know that God hears not sinners: but IF (conditional) any man be a worshipper of God, and does his will, him he hears.

JOHN 14:15 IF (conditional) you love me, keep my commandments.

JOHN 15:10 IF (conditional) you keep my commandments, you shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments and abide in his love.

JOHN 15:14 You are my friends, IF (conditional) you do whatever I command you.

JOHN 14:23 Jesus answered and said to him, IF (conditional) a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come to him, and make our stay with him.

JOHN 15:6-7 [6], IF (conditional) a man abides not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned. [7], IF (conditional) you abide in me, and my words abide in you, you shall ask what you will, and it shall be done to you.

Now these are but a few for discussion sake. Did you want me to post some more? Just let me know as I am happy to do so as there is way more than what I have posted here in the New Testament which follows the same these as the OLD Testament and that is that salvation is condtional on believing and following God's Word.

God's Sheep hear His Voice (the Word).
 
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Albion

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Well that is not true. All I am hearing now is your words denying God's.
I know. I know. But as I said, some people may look more closely and see that the nature of the two sets of verses -- OT and NT -- is not the same, although they deal generally with the matter of salvation.

To understand the words of God rather than misunderstand them ought to be a good thing, don't we usually think?
 
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Romans 8

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IS SALVATION CONDTIONAL AND WHAT DOES IT MEAN TO BELIEVE?

Hi all, just wanting to hear your thoughts, as I have been reading some scriptures of late all through the OLD and NEW Testament that suggest that the fruit of our faith in God's Word determines what we do and making salvation condtional on both BELIEVING what God says and following what God says.

THE LITTLE WORD “IF” DEMONSTRATES IN BOTH THE OLD AND NEW TESTAMENT HEBREW AND GREEK SCRIPTURES THAT SALVATION IS CONDITIONAL ON FREE WILL TO CHOOSE TO BOTH BELIEVE AND FOLLOW (FRUIT) GOD'S WORD (present tense) OR NOT TO BELIEVE AND FOLLOW GOD'S WORD.

OLD TESTAMENT (Not definitive)

IF” (Hebrew) *H518; אם;'im; A primitive particle; used very widely as demonstrative, lo !; interrogitive, whether ?; or conditional, if, although ; also Oh that !, when ; hence as a negative, not: - (and, can-, doubtless, if, that) (not), + but, either, + except, + more (-over if, than), neither, nevertheless, nor, oh that, or, + save (only, -ing), seeing, since, sith, + surely (no more, none, not), though, + of a truth, + unless, + verily, when, whereas, whether, while, + yet.

We must do well according to Gods' Word (believe and follow) in order to be accepted...

GENESIS 4:7 IF (conditional) you do well, shall you not be accepted? and if you do not well, sin lies at the door. And to you shall be his desire, and you shall rule over him.

Consequences for not believing and following...

GENESIS 20:7 Now therefore restore the man his wife; for he is a prophet, and he shall pray for you, and you shall live: and IF (conditional) you restore her not, know you that you shall surely die, you, and all that are yours.

EXODUS 4:23 And I say to you, let my son go, that he may serve me: and IF (conditional) you refuse to let him go, behold, I will slay your son, even your firstborn.

Blessings for believing and following...

EXODUS 15:26 And said, IF (conditional) you will diligently listen to the voice of the LORD your God, and will do that which is right in his sight, and will give ear to his commandments, and keep all his statutes, I will put none of these diseases on you, which I have brought on the Egyptians: for I am the LORD that heals you.

LEVITICUS 26:3-5 [3], IF (conditional) you walk in my statutes, and keep my commandments, and do them; [4] THEN I will give you rain in due season, and the land shall yield her increase, and the trees of the field shall yield their fruit. [5], And your threshing shall reach to the vintage, and the vintage shall reach to the sowing time: and you shall eat your bread to the full, and dwell in your land safely.

LEVITICUS 26:14-18 [14], But IF (conditional) you will not listen to me, and will not do all these commandments; [15] And IF (conditional) you shall despise my statutes, or if your soul abhor my judgments, so that you will not do all my commandments, but that you break my covenant: [16], I also will do this to you; I will even appoint over you terror, consumption, and the burning ague, that shall consume the eyes, and cause sorrow of heart: and you shall sow your seed in vain, for your enemies shall eat it. [17], And I will set my face against you, and you shall be slain before your enemies: they that hate you shall reign over you; and you shall flee when none pursues you. [18], And IF (conditional) you will not yet for all this listen to me, then I will punish you seven times more for your sins.

There are too mant more to write so may stop here for the Old Testament scriptures and maybe post some more latter.

..............

NEW TESTAMENT (not definitive)

IF (Greek) *G1437; אםἐάν; ean; a conditional particle; in case that, provided, etc.; often used in connection with other particles to denote indefiniteness or uncertainty : - before, but, except, (and) if, (if) so, (what-, whither-) soever, though, when (-soever), whether (or), to whom, [who-] so (-ever)., See G3361.

God's forgiveness is conditional...

I JOHN 1:9 [9], IF (conditional) we confess our sins, he is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

MATTHEW 6:14-15 [14], For IF (conditional) you forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you: [15], But IF (conditional) you forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.

Being a disciple we must follow what Jesus says...

MATTHEW 16:24 Then said Jesus to his disciples, IF (conditional) any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.

Conditons for inheriting eternal life...

MATTHEW 19:16-19 [16], And, behold, one came and said to him, Good Master, what good thing shall I DO, that I may have eternal life? [17], And he said to him, Why call you me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but IF (conditional) you will enter into life, keep the commandments. [18], He said to him, Which? Jesus said, You shall do no murder, You shall not commit adultery, You shall not steal, You shall not bear false witness, [19], Honor your father and your mother: and, You shall love your neighbor as yourself.

JOHN 6:51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven: IF (conditional) any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.

JOHN 8:24 I said therefore to you, that you shall die in your sins: for IF (conditional) you believe not that I am he, you shall die in your sins.

JOHN 8:31-32 [31], Then said Jesus to those Jews which believed on him, IF (conditional) you continue in my word, then are you my disciples indeed;[32], And you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.

JOHN 8:39 They answered and said to him, Abraham is our father. Jesus said to them, IF you were Abraham's children, you would do the works of Abraham.

JOHN 8:51 Truly, truly, I say to you, IF (conditional) a man keeps my saying, he shall never see death.

God only hears those who are following His Word...

JOHN 9:31 Now we know that God hears not sinners: but IF (conditional) any man be a worshipper of God, and does his will, him he hears.

JOHN 14:15 IF (conditional) you love me, keep my commandments.

JOHN 15:10 IF (conditional) you keep my commandments, you shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments and abide in his love.

JOHN 15:14 You are my friends, IF (conditional) you do whatever I command you.

JOHN 14:23 Jesus answered and said to him, IF (conditional) a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come to him, and make our stay with him.

JOHN 15:6-7 [6], IF (conditional) a man abides not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned. [7], IF (conditional) you abide in me, and my words abide in you, you shall ask what you will, and it shall be done to you.

Ok once again too many to list and may post some more latter..

............

QUESTIONS

Q1 What does it mean to believe in God?
Q2 What is saving faith?
Q2 Is salvation condtional on BELIEVING AND FOLLOWING God's Word or just believing it?

Blessings

I have some questions for you. How many threads in the past month alone have you started on this very topic? Is it a hobby to cut snippets from the Bible and post them here or an obsession? How does it make you feel to believe that you know something others do not? Are there any feelings of pride involved? Is there any idolatry involved with such thinking?
 
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LoveGodsWord

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I have some questions for you. How many threads in the past month alone have you started on this very topic? Is it a hobby to cut snippets from the Bible and post them here or an obsession? How does it make you feel to believe that you know something others do not? Are there any feelings of pride involved? Is there any idolatry involved with such thinking?

Like this one? None. Though most of my threads are not peace and safety but God's Word to prepare those that have ears to hear.

Gods Sheep hear His Voice (the Word)
 
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