Believers were chosen and called to LIVE holy lives!

One

BCsenior said:

Yes, it appears that your view of our new covenant is:
free-grace, grace-only, hyper-grace, easy-believism, etc.
(with NO responsibility, accountability, etc. on the part of the believer)
... all of which are from the very pits of hell.

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i pray that the Lord of Glory show you His way and open your eyes to His word. Please don't fight against what you are yet to understand. Look at it prayerfully and consider it truthfully.

BCsenior said:

I got as far as the above.
The Truth is ... "in Jesus is no sin."

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Exactly!

BCsenior said:

By "free grace" (in the anti-OSAS context) we mean
"grace without any responsibility or accountability".

The NT is absolutely filled with verses which teach that
man's salvation is a co-operative effort between God and man.
Through his free will, man must choose to co-operate with the precious
Holy Spirit in his on-going process of sanctification unto holiness!

Believers really need to RECONCILE all of the NT verses re: OSAS
... all of the NT verses on both sides of the aisle.
Surely, pastors with 20 years of experience have done this (and taught it)!

As I tell all Baptists, believers are NOT robots!
Like all men, they have the God-given free will to do whatever they please!

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Since I don't believe in OSAS,I believe we are kept by the Spirit unto the final day, your assertion is incorrect. Moreover yours is clearly a works salvation which is totally against the Scriptures. Man' free will is a myth. Man is controlled by his nature. His nature is sin so he chooses to sin. He is free to do anything within his nature but cannot will himself to do that which is outside of his nature.

Man wants to control his destiny but it isn't up to him. He not only cannot come to Christ, he will not. It isn't in his fallen nature to do so. Therefore God must do something in us and for us in order for us to be saved.

Clearly you do not understand God, man or the Gospel.

We preach Christ crucified not as a possible savior if man will accept Him but the King of glory whose terms of peace with the rebel sinner is " Surrender or die. ".

The Scriptures weren't written in order that the natural man can understand them. Oh yes, he can read the words and put together the sentences but he cannot understand them. The Scriptures are a spiritual book and you must have the Spirit to grasp the spiritual truths in them. Otherwise you come up with man saving himself with God's help.

So so sad.

OldWiseGuy said:

Most everyone on earth has heard the gospel message. What is needed are real-life examples.

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Jesus said to let your light shine in such a way that men would glorify your Father in Heaven. That means pointing to Jesus when men comment on how good you or other people are.This is one important way in which we give reasons for the hope we have in the Gospel.
Sinners don't want to equate goodness with Gospel. Our sinful nature would rather exult in humanistic moralism than to be reminded that we are in danger of hellfire.

twin1954 said:

Since I don't believe in OSAS,I believe we are kept by the Spirit unto the final day, your assertion is incorrect.

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What is the difference between OSAS (Once Saved Always Saved), and POTS (Perseverance of the Saints)? Most OSAS Proponents (Non-Calvinist OSAS believers) I have talked with believe they will also persevere or be kept by God until the final day. But what exactly do you believe the Calvinist position teaches in regards to persevering? Would this be a belief alone in Jesus? Would this be holy living?

You said:

Moreover yours is clearly a works salvation which is totally against the Scriptures.

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Well, most people do not understand that Ephesians 2:8-9, Titus 3:5, Romans 4:1-4, and Galatians 3 are referring to "Initial Salvation" or in how we are ultimately saved (i.e. the Entrance Gate and Foundation of our Faith). Most people do not understand that these pieces of Scripture are not referring to the Sanctification Process (Which is the second work of God done in our lives).

However, make no mistake, friend.

After we are saved by God's grace,
God’s works (done through us) are also required as a part of the Salvation Process:


(Here are a List of Verses):


“Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only." (James 2:24).

"Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone. Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.” (James 2:17-18).

"They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate." (Titus 1:16).

"If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness; He is proud, knowing nothing, "(1 Timothy 6:3-4).

"...God resisteth the proud, but giveth grace unto the humble." (James 4:6).

"What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein? (Romans 6:1-2).

"And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him." (Hebrews 5:9).

"Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord" (Hebrews 12:14).

“...God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth” (2 Thessalonians 2:13).

“For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.” (Romans 8:13).

“There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.” (Romans 8:1).

“This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh. (Galatians 5:16).

“That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit (Romans 8:4).

"If any man love not the Lord Jesus Christ, let him be Anathema Maranatha." (1 Corinthians 16:22).

"If ye love me, keep my commandments." (John 14:15).

“If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.” (John 15:10).

And, behold, a certain lawyer stood up, and tempted him, saying, Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life? He said unto him, What is written in the law? how readest thou? And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself. And he said unto him, Thou hast answered right: this do, and thou shalt live.” (Luke 10:25-28).

“...if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments. He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.” (Matthew 19:17-19).

"And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me." (Matthew 10:38).

”If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me. For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it. For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? (Matthew 16:24-26).

"...No man, having put his hand to the plough, and looking back, is fit for the kingdom of God." (Luke 9:62).

“Blessed are the pure in heart: for they shall see God.” (Matthew 5:8).

"Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls." (James 1:21).

"But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile; But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile: For there is no respect of persons with God." (Romans 2:8-11).

“And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.” (John 5:29).

”And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last. Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.” (Revelation 22:12-15).

"For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved." (John 3:20).

“For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee. Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.” (Romans 11:21-22).

"...but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments." (Matthew 19:17).

“Work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.” (Philippians 2:12).

“For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men, Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;” (Titus 2:11-12).

“...And having become servants of God, ye have your fruit unto holiness and the end, everlasting life.” (Romans 6:22).

”Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in: Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me. Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink? When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee? Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee? And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.” (Matthew 25:34-40).

“Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels: For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not. Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee? Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me. And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.” (Matthew 25:41-46).

”His lord said unto him, Well done, thou good and faithful servant: thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord.” (Matthew 25:21).

”And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.” (Matthew 25:30).

”Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God. But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end; While it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts, as in the provocation [i.e. as the people of Israel did when they rebelled against him in the desert.”] (Hebrews 3:12-15) (Note: The explanation on verse 15 in brackets is taken from the Living Bible Translation (TLB)).

”Wherefore I was grieved with that generation, and said, They do alway err in their heart; and they have not known my ways. So I sware in my wrath, They shall not enter into my rest.)” (Hebrews 3:10-11).

”Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief. (Hebrews 4:11).

“In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother.” (1 John 3:10).

“He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God” (John 8:47).

You said:

Man' free will is a myth.

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Actually, here is...

Free Will in the Bible:

#1. Joshua 24:15 KJV -
"Choose for yourselves this day whom you will serve"

#2. Matthew 11:28 KJV -
"Come to Me, all you who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest."

#3. John 7:17 KJV -
"If anyone wills to do His will, he shall know concerning the doctrine, whether it is from God."

#4. John 7:37 KJV -
"If anyone thirsts, let him come to Me and drink."

#5. Acts 2:38 KJV -
"Repent, and let everyone of you be baptized"

#6. Acts 3:19 KJV -
"Repent therefore and be converted"

#7. Acts 16:31 KJV -
"Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved"

#8. Acts 17:30 KJV -
"but now commands all men everywhere to repent"

#9. Revelation 22:17 KJV -
"Whoever wills, let him take the water of life freely."

#10. Genesis 4:7 KJV -
"If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him."

#11. Revelation 22:17 KJ2
"And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that hears say, Come. And let him that is thirsty come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely."

#12. Luke 13:34 NLT -
"O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the city that kills the prophets and stones God's messengers! How often I have wanted to gather your children together as a hen protects her chicks beneath her wings, but you wouldn't let me.

You said:

Man is controlled by his nature. His nature is sin so he chooses to sin. He is free to do anything within his nature but cannot will himself to do that which is outside of his nature.

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On the contrary,

Jesus says,

"Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven" (Matthew 5:16).

Jesus also says,

"You give glory to my Father when you produce a lot of fruit and therefore show that you are my disciples." (John 15:8 GW).

And Peter says,

"Be careful to live properly among your unbelieving neighbors. Then even if they accuse you of doing wrong, they will see your honorable behavior, and they will give honor to God when he judges the world." (1 Peter 2:12 NLT).

Paul says,

"That ye may be blameless and harmless, the sons of God, without rebuke, in the midst of a crooked and perverse nation, among whom ye shine as lights in the world;" (Philippians 2:15).

You said:

Man wants to control his destiny but it isn't up to him. He not only cannot come to Christ, he will not. It isn't in his fallen nature to do so. Therefore God must do something in us and for us in order for us to be saved.

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It is illogical for God to choose some to be saved and choose others to not be saved with them each having no ability to choose of their own free will in some way in regards to God. Yes, I believe a person cannot choose God without God's drawing, but that does not mean that man does not have a choice in making a decision for Christ at some point in their lives. For why would God punish the wicked at a Judgment if it was God who placed them there? It makes no sense. That would be like a dog owner who kicks his dog across the room (like a football) because it has an uncontrollable pooping problem (When the dog owner knows it has such a problem). The poor animal has no control over it's pooping function, and it is forced to release it's poop all over the carpet uncontrollably. Yet, the master of the animal does not care and he is going to punish the animal for something it has no control over. The dog owner is heartless. This is the view of God that I must believe in if Unconditional Election is true. But it is illogical. It is unbiblical. For my Bible says, "God is love." (1 John 4:8). My Bible says, "For God so loved the world..." (John 3:16).

You said:

We preach Christ crucified

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What would be the purpose of preaching in Calvinism if God was the one who determines ultimately who is saved and or not saved? Could not God lead a person to just pick up the Bible and read those passages that are necessary for salvation?

Does it not take effort on the part of the Calvinist to preach the gospel?
Or do you think the Calvinist experiences an uncontrollable force moving them to preach the gospel (of which they cannot resist in fighting against)?

royal priest said:

Jesus said to let your light shine in such a way that men would glorify your Father in Heaven. That means pointing to Jesus when men comment on how good you or other people are.This is one important way in which we give reasons for the hope we have in the Gospel.
Sinners don't want to equate goodness with Gospel. Our sinful nature would rather exult in humanistic moralism than to be reminded that we are in danger of hellfire.

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Matthew 5:16 is in context to righteous instruction or living that is from Jesus's sermon on the Mount. It is not in context to preaching the gospel alone. So in context, the good works would actually be good works. While "good works" can include preaching the gospel, it would also include living holy by the power of the Holy Spirit working in us, as well (i.e. the Sanctification Process).

OldWiseGuy said:

Most everyone on earth has heard the gospel message. What is needed are real-life examples.

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If the world has not seen real life examples, then they have not truly heard the real gospel. A gospel that does not transform us from sinner to saint, that does not cause holy fruits to be produced by us, may indeed have points of truth mixed with error, but in no way is the full gospel.

When that bothers us enough to seek where the error lies, we will discover the rest of the gospel, but only when the half gospel has thoroughly worn us out.

Next stop... brokenness.

blessings,

Gids

Keeping the new covenant Sabbath would go a long way in straightening all this out. Physically speaking the Sabbath is the greatest gift that God has given mankind. Sadly it is either totally misunderstood, or totally ignored by most of Christianity. The importance of keeping the Sabbath cannot be overstated.

BCsenior said:

RE: the "practice righteousness" verses in the NT ... Those who do this PROVE that they are righteous in God's eyes! IMO, those who do NOT do this are NOT righteous in God's eyes.
So, are the latter group on their way to heaven?
No, IMO, they are on the broad road (Matthew 7:21). Therefore, people should NOT make excuses for why they are NOT practicing righteousness!

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Amen, as Yahuweh says in Romans 2 - those who do what is right are justified, those who do not do what is right are unjustified.

OldWiseGuy said:

Keeping the new covenant Sabbath would go a long way in straightening all this out. Physically speaking the Sabbath is the greatest gift that God has given mankind. Sadly it is either totally misunderstood, or totally ignored by most of Christianity. The importance of keeping the Sabbath cannot be overstated.

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The Sabbath is for Yahuweh's set-apart , holy, people, and was also a test in the wilderness for them, to see if they would obey Him or not. Those who rebelled died in the wilderness and did not make it to the promised land.

com7fy8 said:

So, from this scripture I see how living holy is connected with not giving in to lusts. And, instead of being conformed to lusts, we become conformed to Jesus. So, we do not just practice certain behaviors, but in our character we are being conformed to Jesus so we are holy the way Jesus is in love.

Jesus is "gentle and lowly in heart, and you will find rest for your souls." (in Matthew 11:28-30) But lusts can be dominating and dictatorial and driving in desperation for pleasure and excitement, instead of having us humbly submissive to our Father in His peace > Colossians 3:15. So, lusts are anti-love, then > anti-holy > emotions of lust are not gentle and humble and kind and tenderly caring.

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This is what is of the world: The lust (desires) of the flesh, the lust (desires) of he eyes, and the pride of life.

Yahuweh's solution in Jesus: crucifixion.

The lusts/ desires are crucified, when we are crucified with Christ.

yeshuaslavejeff said:

The Sabbath is for Yahuweh's set-apart , holy, people, and was also a test in the wilderness for them, to see if they would obey Him or not. Those who rebelled died in the wilderness and did not make it to the promised land.

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This is a good test for today as well, as it can reveal who controls your mind.

yeshuaslavejeff said:

This is what is of the world: The lust (desires) of the flesh, the lust (desires) of he eyes, and the pride of life.

Yahuweh's solution in Jesus: crucifixion.

The lusts/ desires are crucified, when we are crucified with Christ.

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Amen to that, but I would like to add a caveat. We are already crucified with Christ, dead and risen again. The problem is, that truth does not change anything outwardly in our walks until we believe it and appropriate (reckon it so) as OURS. It must be mixed with faith to see the life of God flow through us.

When we set out to believe the truth that we ARE dead, our faith starts out small. Therefore, more than likely there will be some slipping. But as we continue to fight our good fight of faith, exercising our faith, it grows. Slipping is finally taken out of the equation as we continue to hold up our shields of faith that we are... ARE.... dead.

And glory to God, as we continue in His Words, refusing to be moved, we do indeed discover that fulfilling the lusts of the flesh actually ceases.

However, and this is important, temptations will still come at us, for although we no longer have a fleshly nature, we have our brand new natures housed in fleshly bodies.

The difference now? We fight from the position of victory to keep the victory, with self reckoned dead. We no longer fight trying to gain the victory over self with our efforts. It simply is impossible.

Blessings to you, Jeff

Gids

BCsenior said:

So so sad ... What do YOU do with (just for example):
the various NT verses, which say ...
-- those who practice righteousness are righteous! (1 John 3:7-10)
-- those who work righteousness are righteous! (Acts 10:35)
etc.

WHAT do you say to these verses?

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The children of Yahuweh, Ekklesia born again by His Will from heaven, set apart by Him - called out by Him for Himself, live righteous lives, being His children. Yes, good.