LDS Make a list of all your LDS doctrines, you will not find that combo in the Early Church Fathers, Wh

D.A. Wright

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Make a list of all your LDS doctrines, you will not find that combo in the Early Church Fathers, Whom the Apostles taught. Yes, this is a challenge
It would be very easy for one to conlude that you are slightly obsessed with "Early Church Fathers," bordering on the copy-and-paste spam-ish tendency.
 
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Daniel Marsh

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Think about it friend, if the only writings from that period are Catholic, then that would mean the Catholic Church is the Original Church.

The Challenge on this thread is for the LDS, not SDA. But, if you want to try to find their doctrine in them be my guest.
 
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D.A. Wright

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Think about it friend, if the only writings from that period are Catholic, then that would mean the Catholic Church is the Original Church.

No need to think. It means no such thing. What is true for the post-apostolic period is true for every other period during which God had His seven-thousand. Your fixation is illogical and borderline neurotic.

The Challenge on this thread is for the LDS, not SDA. But, if you want to try to find their doctrine in them be my guest.

Pardon me for interrupting but, again, you appear to be copy-and-paste-happy.
 
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Peter1000

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No need to think. It means no such thing. What is true for the post-apostolic period is true for every other period during which God had His seven-thousand. Your fixation is illogical and borderline neurotic.



Pardon me for interrupting but, again, you appear to be copy-and-paste-happy.
Wow, David, I thought you were just snarky to Mormons on this forum, but you just smashed another Christian. Good going.

If I lived in a glass house, I would not be throwing so many rocks.
 
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Peter1000

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Make a list of all your LDS doctrines, you will not find that combo in the Early Church Fathers, Whom the Apostles taught. Yes, this is a challenge
Here is one doctrine for you Daniel.

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints believes in this model for what a new member does when they want to be a member of the church:

1) A person learns of Christ.
2) This person begins to have good feeling from the Holy Spirit about what they have learned.
3) They meet with other believers and they become a believer, with a budding faith in Jesus.
4) They learn about repentance and repent so they can be baptized.
5) They are baptized by full immersion in water, in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Ghost, for the remission of sins, leaving their dead sins in a watery grave, and come up out of the water clean and pure, ready to receive the full companionship of the Holy Ghost.
6) They then receive the gift of the Holy Ghost by the laying on of hands.

1-3 is essential if you are going to be a believer, but 4-6 is particularly taught in the bible, as the model for new believers. See Acts 2:37-38
Acts 2:37-38 King James Version (KJV)
37 Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?
38 Then Peter said unto them, (4)Repent, and (5)be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and (6)ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
(my parenthesis added)

So on the day of Pentecost, when these 3000 men and women knew that Jesus was their Savior, they wanted to know what they needed to do to be members of the Church of Jesus of First-century Saints. Peter told them to repent, and be baptized, and they would receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. Just like the church does today.

That is just 1 doctrine.
 
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Daniel Marsh

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Here is one doctrine for you Daniel.

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints believes in this model for what a new member does when they want to be a member of the church:

1) A person learns of Christ.
2) This person begins to have good feeling from the Holy Spirit about what they have learned.
3) They meet with other believers and they become a believer, with a budding faith in Jesus.
4) They learn about repentance and repent so they can be baptized.
5) They are baptized by full immersion in water, in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Ghost, for the remission of sins, leaving their dead sins in a watery grave, and come up out of the water clean and pure, ready to receive the full companionship of the Holy Ghost.
6) They then receive the gift of the Holy Ghost by the laying on of hands.

1-3 is essential if you are going to be a believer, but 4-6 is particularly taught in the bible, as the model for new believers. See Acts 2:37-38
Acts 2:37-38 King James Version (KJV)
37 Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?
38 Then Peter said unto them, (4)Repent, and (5)be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and (6)ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
(my parenthesis added)

So on the day of Pentecost, when these 3000 men and women knew that Jesus was their Savior, they wanted to know what they needed to do to be members of the Church of Jesus of First-century Saints. Peter told them to repent, and be baptized, and they would receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. Just like the church does today.

That is just 1 doctrine.

Ok friend, thanks for defining. What quotes with links from the church fathers do you have. Is burning in the bosom part of that definition above?

Didache

Chapter 7. Concerning Baptism
And concerning baptism, baptize this way: Having first said all these things, baptize into the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, Matthew 28:19 in living water. But if you have not living water, baptize into other water; and if you can not in cold, in warm. But if you have not either, pour out water thrice upon the head into the name of Father and Son and Holy Spirit. But before the baptism let the baptizer fast, and the baptized, and whatever others can; but you shall order the baptized to fast one or two days before.

CHURCH FATHERS: The Didache
 
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Peter1000

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Ok friend, thanks for defining. What quotes with links from the church fathers do you have. Is burning in the bosom part of that definition above?

Didache

Chapter 7. Concerning Baptism
And concerning baptism, baptize this way: Having first said all these things, baptize into the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit, Matthew 28:19 in living water. But if you have not living water, baptize into other water; and if you can not in cold, in warm. But if you have not either, pour out water thrice upon the head into the name of Father and Son and Holy Spirit. But before the baptism let the baptizer fast, and the baptized, and whatever others can; but you shall order the baptized to fast one or two days before.

CHURCH FATHERS: The Didache
Do you want links to the church fathers or do you want links to the Bible? I gave you a link to the Bible which to me is quite a step up from the church fathers.

Usually if I can not find a good scripture in the bible to prove my point, once in a while I will go to the church fathers and see what they say, but rarely.

The Didache is a proof of the apostasy in motion, and early in church history. We figure the Dadache was probably written between 50-100ad and it was already making concessions in the baptismal form.

The whole reason that you baptize by immersion in water is a symbolic grave for the sinful man that you leave behind in that watery grave. Coming up out of the water is symbolic for a clean and pure new person in Christ. So to say, OK if you don't have a lot of water, you can just take 3 handfuls and sprinkle them on your head.

This form of baptism destroys the sacred symbol of the watery grave, and the sacred symbol of coming up clean and pure in Christ. Therefore it is a corruption of the baptismal event. This early corruption has led to sprinkling even when there is plenty of water, and even to "you don't have to be baptized in water if you don't want to". No good.

I hope that helps.
 
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Daniel Marsh

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Do you want links to the church fathers or do you want links to the Bible? I gave you a link to the Bible which to me is quite a step up from the church fathers.

Usually if I can not find a good scripture in the bible to prove my point, once in a while I will go to the church fathers and see what they say, but rarely.

The Didache is a proof of the apostasy in motion, and early in church history. We figure the Dadache was probably written between 50-100ad and it was already making concessions in the baptismal form.

The whole reason that you baptize by immersion in water is a symbolic grave for the sinful man that you leave behind in that watery grave. Coming up out of the water is symbolic for a clean and pure new person in Christ. So to say, OK if you don't have a lot of water, you can just take 3 handfuls and sprinkle them on your head.

This form of baptism destroys the sacred symbol of the watery grave, and the sacred symbol of coming up clean and pure in Christ. Therefore it is a corruption of the baptismal event. This early corruption has led to sprinkling even when there is plenty of water, and even to "you don't have to be baptized in water if you don't want to". No good.

I hope that helps.


The Didache is proof of what the early church practiced. It is not proof of any kind of Apostasy.

I want only the Early Church Fathers, not the Bible. Since the King James Bible has been misinterpreted by many today.

The early church Fathers were appointed and taught by the apostles themselves.

The whole great apostasy thing is a myth by those who can not handle the truths of history.

"
Chapter 14. Of Paul's Assertion, that He Had Not Been Sent to Baptize
But they roll back an objection from that apostle himself, in that he said, For Christ sent me not to baptize;1 Corinthians 1:17 as if by this argument baptism were done away! For if so, why did he baptize Gaius, and Crispus, and the house of Stephanas? However, even if Christ had not sent him to baptize, yet He had given other apostles the precept to baptize. But these words were written to the Corinthians in regard of the circumstances of that particular time; seeing that schisms and dissensions were agitated among them, while one attributes everything to Paul, another to Apollos. For which reason the peace-making apostle, for fear he should seem to claim all gifts for himself, says that he had been sent not to baptize, but to preach. For preaching is the prior thing, baptizing the posterior. Therefore the preaching came first: but I think baptizingwithal was lawful to him to whom preaching was.

Chapter 15. Unity of Baptism. Remarks on Heretical And Jewish Baptism
I know not whether any further point is mooted to bring baptism into controversy. Permit me to call to mind what I have omitted above, lest I seem to break off the train of impending thoughts in the middle. There is to us one, and but one, baptism; as well according to the Lord's gospel as according to the apostle's letters, inasmuch as he says, One God, and one baptism, and one church in the heavens. But it must be admitted that the question, What rules are to be observed with regard to heretics? is worthy of being treated. For it is to us that that assertion refers. Heretics, however, have no fellowship in our discipline, whom the mere fact of their excommunication testifies to be outsiders. I am not bound to recognize in them a thing which is enjoined on me, because they and we have not the same God, nor one — that is, the same— Christ. And therefore their baptism is not one with ours either, because it is not the same; a baptism which, since they have it not duly, doubtless they have not at all; nor is that capable of being counted which is not had. Ecclesiastes 1:15 Thus they cannot receive it either, because they have it not. But this point has already received a fuller discussion from us in Greek. We enter, then, the font once: once are sins washed away, because they ought never to be repeated. But the Jewish Israel bathes daily, because he is daily being defiled: and, for fear that defilementshould be practised among us also, therefore was the definition touching the one bathing made. Happy water, which once washes away; which does not mock sinners (with vain hopes); which does not, by being infected with the repetition of impurities, again defile them whom it has washed!

Chapter 16. Of the Second Baptism — With Blood"

CHURCH FATHERS: On Baptism (Tertullian)
 
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Peter1000

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The Didache is proof of what the early church practiced. It is not proof of any kind of Apostasy.

I want only the Early Church Fathers, not the Bible. Since the King James Bible has been misinterpreted by many today.

The early church Fathers were appointed and taught by the apostles themselves.

The whole great apostasy thing is a myth by those who can not handle the truths of history.

"
Chapter 14. Of Paul's Assertion, that He Had Not Been Sent to Baptize
But they roll back an objection from that apostle himself, in that he said, For Christ sent me not to baptize;1 Corinthians 1:17 as if by this argument baptism were done away! For if so, why did he baptize Gaius, and Crispus, and the house of Stephanas? However, even if Christ had not sent him to baptize, yet He had given other apostles the precept to baptize. But these words were written to the Corinthians in regard of the circumstances of that particular time; seeing that schisms and dissensions were agitated among them, while one attributes everything to Paul, another to Apollos. For which reason the peace-making apostle, for fear he should seem to claim all gifts for himself, says that he had been sent not to baptize, but to preach. For preaching is the prior thing, baptizing the posterior. Therefore the preaching came first: but I think baptizingwithal was lawful to him to whom preaching was.

Chapter 15. Unity of Baptism. Remarks on Heretical And Jewish Baptism
I know not whether any further point is mooted to bring baptism into controversy. Permit me to call to mind what I have omitted above, lest I seem to break off the train of impending thoughts in the middle. There is to us one, and but one, baptism; as well according to the Lord's gospel as according to the apostle's letters, inasmuch as he says, One God, and one baptism, and one church in the heavens. But it must be admitted that the question, What rules are to be observed with regard to heretics? is worthy of being treated. For it is to us that that assertion refers. Heretics, however, have no fellowship in our discipline, whom the mere fact of their excommunication testifies to be outsiders. I am not bound to recognize in them a thing which is enjoined on me, because they and we have not the same God, nor one — that is, the same— Christ. And therefore their baptism is not one with ours either, because it is not the same; a baptism which, since they have it not duly, doubtless they have not at all; nor is that capable of being counted which is not had. Ecclesiastes 1:15 Thus they cannot receive it either, because they have it not. But this point has already received a fuller discussion from us in Greek. We enter, then, the font once: once are sins washed away, because they ought never to be repeated. But the Jewish Israel bathes daily, because he is daily being defiled: and, for fear that defilementshould be practised among us also, therefore was the definition touching the one bathing made. Happy water, which once washes away; which does not mock sinners (with vain hopes); which does not, by being infected with the repetition of impurities, again defile them whom it has washed!

Chapter 16. Of the Second Baptism — With Blood"

CHURCH FATHERS: On Baptism (Tertullian)
The Didatche has confirmed that the form of baptism, 70 years after Jesus has already been compromised by the church fathers. And if a major event like baptism can be changed, smaller doctrines could be changed easily, meaning that within 70 years of Christ, the apostasy was starting to take its toll on the church.

I
 
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Daniel Marsh

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The Didatche has confirmed that the form of baptism, 70 years after Jesus has already been compromised by the church fathers. And if a major event like baptism can be changed, smaller doctrines could be changed easily, meaning that within 70 years of Christ, the apostasy was starting to take its toll on the church.

I

Your lack of knowledge is amusing. Baptism is a purification ritual. Whatever water was available was used. My Jewish Ancestors lived in a Desert Environment. In cases where water was limited, sprinkling was done. It is God himself speaking below.


Ezekiel 36:25 Easy-to-Read Version (ERV)
25 Then I will sprinkle pure water on you and make you pure. I will wash away all your filth, the filth from those nasty idols, and I will make you pure.
 
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Daniel Marsh

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Other cases:

Exodus 29:21 Then take some of the blood from the altar. Mix it with the special oil and sprinkle it on Aaron and his clothes. And sprinkle it on his sons and their clothes. This will show that Aaron and his sons serve me in a special way. And it will show that their clothes are used only at special times.

Leviticus 4:6 He must put his finger in the blood and sprinkle the blood seven times before the Lord in front of the curtain of the Most Holy Place.

Leviticus 4:17 He must put his finger in the blood and sprinkle it seven times in front of the curtain before the Lord.

Leviticus 5:9 The priest will sprinkle the blood from the sin offering on the side of the altar. Then he will pour out the rest of the blood at the base of the altar. It is a sin offering.

Leviticus 6:27 Touching the meat of the sin offering makes a person or a thing holy. “If any of the sprinkled blood falls on a person’s clothes, you must wash the clothes in a holy place.

Leviticus 7:2 A priest must kill the guilt offering in the same place where they kill the burnt offerings. Then he must sprinkle the blood from the guilt offering around the altar.

Leviticus 7:14 Offer one each of these different kinds of bread as a gift to the Lord. Then it will belong to the priest who sprinkles the blood of the fellowship offerings.

Leviticus 8:10 Then Moses took the anointing oil and sprinkled it on the Holy Tent and on everything in it. In this way he made them holy.

Leviticus 8:11 He sprinkled some of the anointing oil on the altar seven times. He sprinkled the oil on the altar, on all its tools and dishes, and on the bowl and its base. In this way he made them holy.

Leviticus 8:19 Then Moses killed the ram. He sprinkled the blood around on the altar.

Leviticus 8:24 Then Moses brought Aaron’s sons close to the altar. He put some of the blood on the tip of their right ears, on the thumb of their right hands, and on the big toe of their right feet. Then he sprinkled the blood around on the altar.

Leviticus 8:30 Moses took some of the anointing oil and some of the blood that was on the altar. He sprinkled some on Aaron and on Aaron’s clothes. He sprinkled some on Aaron’s sons who were with Aaron and on their clothes. In this way Moses made Aaron, his clothes, his sons, and his sons’ clothes holy.

Leviticus 9:12 Next, Aaron killed the animal for the burnt offering. His sons brought the blood to him, and he sprinkled the blood around on the altar.

Leviticus 9:18 Aaron also killed the bull and the ram that were the fellowship offerings from the people. His sons brought the blood to him, and he sprinkled this blood around on the altar.

Leviticus 14:7 He must sprinkle the blood seven times on those who had the skin disease. Then he must announce that they are clean. After that the priest must go to an open field and let the living bird go free.

Leviticus 14:16 Then the priest will dip the finger of his right hand into the oil that is in his left palm. He will use his finger to sprinkle some of the oil seven times before the Lord.

Leviticus 14:27 He will use the finger of his right hand to sprinkle some of the oil that is in his left palm seven times before the Lord.

Leviticus 14:51 Then he will take the cedar wood, the hyssop, the piece of red cloth, and the living bird and dip them in the blood of the bird that was killed over running water. Then he will sprinkle that blood on the house seven times.

Leviticus 16:14 Aaron will dip his finger into the bull’s blood and sprinkle it on the front of the Holy Box. Then he will sprinkle the blood seven times onto the front of the mercy-cover.

Leviticus 16:15 “Then Aaron will kill the goat of the sin offering for the people. He will bring this goat’s blood into the room behind the curtain. He will do with the goat’s blood as he did with the bull’s blood. He will sprinkle the goat’s blood on the mercy-cover and in front of it.

Leviticus 16:19 Then he will dip his finger in the blood and sprinkle it on the altar seven times. In this way Aaron will make the altar holy and clean from all the sins of the Israelites.

Numbers 8:7 This is what you should do to make them clean: Sprinkle the special water from the sin offering on them. This water will make them clean. Then they must shave their bodies and wash their clothes. This will make their bodies clean.

Numbers 18:17 “But you must not make a payment for the firstborn cow, sheep, or goat. These animals are holy. Sprinkle their blood on the altar and burn their fat as a sweet-smelling gift to the Lord.

Numbers 19:4 Then Eleazar the priest must put some of its blood on his finger and sprinkle some of the blood toward the Holy Tent. He must do this seven times.

Numbers 19:18 That clean person must take a hyssop branch and dip it into the water. The clean person must sprinkle it over the tent, the dishes, and any people who were in the tent. That clean person must do this for anyone who touches a dead body, its bones, or even a grave.

Numbers 19:19 “Then that clean person must sprinkle this water on you on the third day and again on the seventh day. On the seventh day you will become clean. You must wash your clothes in water and you will become clean in the evening.

Numbers 19:20 “Whoever becomes unclean and does not become clean must be separated from the community. If an unclean person is not sprinkled with that special water and does not become clean, that person might make the Lord’s Holy Tent unclean.

Numbers 19:21 This rule will be for you forever. And whoever sprinkled the special water must wash their clothes because they will be unclean until evening.

2 Kings 16:13 Ahaz burned his burnt offerings and grain offerings on it. He poured his drink offering and sprinkled the blood of his fellowship offerings on this altar.

2 Kings 16:15 He commanded Uriah the priest, “Use the large altar to burn the morning burnt offerings, the evening grain offerings, and the drink offerings from all the people of this country. Sprinkle all the blood from the burnt offering and other sacrifices on the large altar. But I will use the bronze altar to get answers from God.”

2 Chronicles 29:22 So the priests killed the bulls and kept the blood. Then they sprinkled the bulls’ blood on the altar. Then they killed the rams and sprinkled the rams’ blood on the altar. Then they killed the lambs and sprinkled the lambs’ blood on the altar.

2 Chronicles 30:16 They took their regular places in the Temple as described in the Law of Moses, the man of God. The Levites gave the blood to the priests. Then the priests sprinkled the blood on the altar.

2 Chronicles 35:11 The Passover lambs were killed. Then the Levites skinned the animals and gave the blood to the priests. The priests sprinkled the blood on the altar.

Ezekiel 36:25 Then I will sprinkle pure water on you and make you pure. I will wash away all your filth, the filth from those nasty idols, and I will make you pure.

Ezekiel 43:18 Then the man said to me, “Son of man, this is what the Lord God says: ‘These are the rules for the altar: At the time you build the altar, use these rules to offer burnt offerings and to sprinkle blood on it.

Ezekiel 43:24 Then you will offer them before the Lord. The priests will sprinkle salt on them. Then they will offer the bull and ram up as a burnt offering to the Lord.

Hosea 7:9 Strangers destroy Ephraim’s strength, but Ephraim does not know it. Gray hairs are also sprinkled on Ephraim, but Ephraim does not know it.

Hebrews 9:13 The blood of goats and bulls and the ashes of a cow were sprinkled on those who were no longer pure enough to enter the place of worship. The blood and ashes made them pure again—but only their bodies.

Hebrews 9:19 First, Moses told the people every command in the law. Then he took the blood of young bulls and mixed it with water. He used red wool and a branch of hyssop to sprinkle the blood and water on the book of the law and on all the people.

Hebrews 9:21 In the same way, Moses sprinkled the blood on the Holy Tent. He sprinkled the blood over everything used in worship.

Hebrews 10:22 Sprinkled with the blood of Christ, our hearts have been made free from a guilty conscience, and our bodies have been washed with pure water. So come near to God with a sincere heart, full of confidence because of our faith in Christ.

Hebrews 12:24 You have come to Jesus—the one who brought the new agreement from God to his people. You have come to the sprinkled blood that tells us about better things than the blood of Abel.
 
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Daniel Marsh

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From your own church, "There were various purifying ceremonies. Bathing the flesh and the clothes in running water was used in all and sufficed in the simplest cases. When the uncleanness was of a deeper character, a purifying water for sprinkling was provided:"Purification

I am surprised you never made the connection.
 
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CHURCH FATHERS: On the Baptism of Christ (Gregory of Nyssa)
CHURCH FATHERS: Against Two Letters of the Pelagians, Book IV (Augustine)

"In the sacraments of salvation, when necessity compels, and God bestows His mercy, the divine methods confer the whole benefit on believers; nor ought it to trouble any one that sick people seem to be sprinkled or affused, when they obtain the Lord's grace, when Holy Scripture speaks by the mouth of the prophet Ezekiel, and says, Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and you shall be clean: from all your filthiness and from all your idols will I cleanse you. And I will give you a new heart, and a new spirit will I put within you. Ezekiel 36:25-26 Also in Numbers: And the man that shall be unclean until the evening shall be purified on the third day, and on the seventh day shall be clean: but if he shall not be purified on the third day, on the seventh day he shall not be clean. And that soul shall be cut off from Israel: because the water of sprinkling has not been sprinkled upon him. And again: And the Lord spoke unto Moses saying, Take the Levites from among the children of Israel, and cleanse them. And thus shall you do unto them, to cleanse them: you shall sprinkle them with the water of purification. Numbers 8:5-7 And again: The water of sprinkling is a purification. Numbers 19:9 Whence it appears that the sprinkling also of water prevails equally with the washing of salvation; and that when this is done in the Church, where the faith both of receiver and giver is sound, all things hold and may be consummated and perfected by the majesty of the Lord and by the truth of faith." CHURCH FATHERS: Epistle 75 (Cyprian of Carthage)

From Archaeology which is not Catholic,
"
Sixty times the food of life, sixty times the water of life,
sprinkle upon it,


...

Sprinkle Ishtar with the water of life and take her from
my presence!”

...

“See, O Telepinus! I have now sprinkled thy ways
with fine oil. So walk thou, Telepinus, over these ways
that are sprinkled with fine oil! (30) Let sahis wood
and happuriasas wood be at hand! Let us set thee right,
O Telepinus, into whatever state of mind is the right
one!”

"Ancient Near Eastern Texts Relating To The Old Testament"

"Full text of "Ancient Near Eastern Texts Relating To The Old Testament"
 
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Ignatius the Kiwi

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From my reading of the fathers I would say the essential teachings of the LDS are missing.

1. That is necessary to be baptized in the LDS temple ceremony.
2. That it is necessary to be sealed in marriage in order to achieve the greatest state of blessing.
3. LDS doctrine of God. That he is a man. That he is married to one or more goddesses.
4. That the Church was in utter apostasy.
5. They never mention there was a tribe of Jews in the New World.

The Didatche has confirmed that the form of baptism, 70 years after Jesus has already been compromised by the church fathers. And if a major event like baptism can be changed, smaller doctrines could be changed easily, meaning that within 70 years of Christ, the apostasy was starting to take its toll on the church.

I

Except the Didache doesn't change anything about Baptism. It offers advice on how Baptism ought to be done:

"Regarding baptism, baptize thus. After giving the foregoing instructions,1 ‘Baptize in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit’2 in running water.3 4 and, if you cannot in cold water, then in warm.5 6 ‘in the name of the Father, and Son, and Holy Spirit.’ 4 But, before the baptism, let the one who baptizes and the one to be baptized fast, and any others who are able to do so. And you shall require the person being baptized to fast for one or two days."

How does this contradict scripture? It's reasonable advice, especially if you don't have access to a stream or flowing water source. Is the problem that the Didache doesn't tell us to do Temple baptisms?
 
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Peter1000

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Your lack of knowledge is amusing. Baptism is a purification ritual. Whatever water was available was used. My Jewish Ancestors lived in a Desert Environment. In cases where water was limited, sprinkling was done. It is God himself speaking below.


Ezekiel 36:25 Easy-to-Read Version (ERV)
25 Then I will sprinkle pure water on you and make you pure. I will wash away all your filth, the filth from those nasty idols, and I will make you pure.
Yes, this may be true. It was also true that these same men were also circumcised to give an outward sign that they were with God. These same men also did many, many kinds of things that are way different than what Jesus taught us to do in the NT.

Jesus and the apostles taught us the proper way to baptize a person and in what name they were baptized. We were to follow this model, because it was full of symbolic actions that were all a part of the ceremony. As Jesus said to John the Baptist, baptize me now to fulfill all righteousness, and John then baptized him by immersion in the river Jordan.

70 years after Jesus, men were corrupting this important event by sprinkling, which was not the model for baptism. I might even agree that under certain conditions, sprinkling would be OK, but only if I received that change by revelation from Jesus Christ through the apostles. Not some holy man living in a desert that came to that conclusion for pragmatic reasons.

That was the problem, men started to think for themselves because the apostles started to be killed off, and this change in the way you can baptize is the very application of men's wisdom.

So 2 years ago, I was is Pisa Italy, and we went into the baptistery. There was a large beautiful bowl of beautiful clean water, deep enough to baptize by immersion, for the very purpose of baptizing people. Our guide said, we take our people up into the bowl of water and then sprinkle their heads 3 times in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit.

I immediately thought to myself, why would they do that with plenty of water for immersion baptism? Then I thought of the Didatche that opened the door for this corruption of the model. It now went from "if you don't have enough water, then you can sprinkle", to "if you would rather sprinkle, then sprinkle".

I was now a witness of a totally apostate ceremony, according to the NT, which we follow.
 
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Daniel Marsh

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Yes, this may be true. It was also true that these same men were also circumcised to give an outward sign that they were with God. These same men also did many, many kinds of things that are way different than what Jesus taught us to do in the NT.

Jesus and the apostles taught us the proper way to baptize a person and in what name they were baptized. We were to follow this model, because it was full of symbolic actions that were all a part of the ceremony. As Jesus said to John the Baptist, baptize me now to fulfill all righteousness, and John then baptized him by immersion in the river Jordan.

70 years after Jesus, men were corrupting this important event by sprinkling, which was not the model for baptism. I might even agree that under certain conditions, sprinkling would be OK, but only if I received that change by revelation from Jesus Christ through the apostles. Not some holy man living in a desert that came to that conclusion for pragmatic reasons.

That was the problem, men started to think for themselves because the apostles started to be killed off, and this change in the way you can baptize is the very application of men's wisdom.

So 2 years ago, I was is Pisa Italy, and we went into the baptistery. There was a large beautiful bowl of beautiful clean water, deep enough to baptize by immersion, for the very purpose of baptizing people. Our guide said, we take our people up into the bowl of water and then sprinkle their heads 3 times in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit.

I immediately thought to myself, why would they do that with plenty of water for immersion baptism? Then I thought of the Didatche that opened the door for this corruption of the model. It now went from "if you don't have enough water, then you can sprinkle", to "if you would rather sprinkle, then sprinkle".

I was now a witness of a totally apostate ceremony, according to the NT, which we follow.

Baptism as we know it is a Jewish Purification Ritual started by God himself.

Ezekiel 36:25 Then I will sprinkle pure water on you and make you pure. I will wash away all your filth, the filth from those nasty idols, and I will make you pure.

From Ancient Near Eastern Texts related to OT, it shows that it was done that way. In Greek, the word Baptize simply means to wash. There are many ways to wash oneself.

"
[She] draws some water and bathes;"
...
(The beginning of column i has not been recovered
as yet.)
...
Luke 7:38 She stood at Jesus’ feet, crying. Then she began to wash his feet with her tears. She dried his feet with her hair. She kissed his feet many times and rubbed them with the perfume.

No bathtub in Luke 7!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


Where was the miḳweh when the ladies went to wash Jesus after his death?

"As soon as death was certain, the deceased’s eyes were closed; the corpse was washed, and then wrapped and bound. According to the third-century C.E. Jewish tractate Semahot, men could only prepare the corpse of a man, but women could prepare both men and women. Literary depictions often suggest that perfumes or ointments were used for this washing. The body was wrapped and bound in strips of cloth. John 11 has such preparations in view: Lazarus’s “hands and feet [were] bound with strips of cloth, and his face wrapped in a cloth” (John 11:44).
...
" Burial Practices in First Century Palestine

Mark 16 Easy-to-Read Version (ERV)

1 The next day after the Sabbath day, Mary Magdalene, Salome, and Mary the mother of James bought some sweet-smelling spices to put on Jesus’ body. 2 Very early on that day, the first day of the week, the women were going to the tomb. It was very early after sunrise. 3 The women said to each other, “There is a large stone covering the entrance of the tomb. Who will move the stone for us?”

Luke 24 Easy-to-Read Version (ERV)
1 Very early Sunday morning, the women came to the tomb where Jesus’ body was laid. They brought the sweet-smelling spices they had prepared. 2 They saw that the heavy stone that covered the entrance had been rolled away. 3 They went in, but they did not find the body of the Lord Jesus.
 
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Peter1000

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Baptism as we know it is a Jewish Purification Ritual started by God himself.

Ezekiel 36:25 Then I will sprinkle pure water on you and make you pure. I will wash away all your filth, the filth from those nasty idols, and I will make you pure.

From Ancient Near Eastern Texts related to OT, it shows that it was done that way. In Greek, the word Baptize simply means to wash. There are many ways to wash oneself.

"
[She] draws some water and bathes;"
...
(The beginning of column i has not been recovered
as yet.)
...
Luke 7:38 She stood at Jesus’ feet, crying. Then she began to wash his feet with her tears. She dried his feet with her hair. She kissed his feet many times and rubbed them with the perfume.

No bathtub in Luke 7!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


Where was the miḳweh when the ladies went to wash Jesus after his death?

"As soon as death was certain, the deceased’s eyes were closed; the corpse was washed, and then wrapped and bound. According to the third-century C.E. Jewish tractate Semahot, men could only prepare the corpse of a man, but women could prepare both men and women. Literary depictions often suggest that perfumes or ointments were used for this washing. The body was wrapped and bound in strips of cloth. John 11 has such preparations in view: Lazarus’s “hands and feet [were] bound with strips of cloth, and his face wrapped in a cloth” (John 11:44).
...
" Burial Practices in First Century Palestine

Mark 16 Easy-to-Read Version (ERV)

1 The next day after the Sabbath day, Mary Magdalene, Salome, and Mary the mother of James bought some sweet-smelling spices to put on Jesus’ body. 2 Very early on that day, the first day of the week, the women were going to the tomb. It was very early after sunrise. 3 The women said to each other, “There is a large stone covering the entrance of the tomb. Who will move the stone for us?”

Luke 24 Easy-to-Read Version (ERV)
1 Very early Sunday morning, the women came to the tomb where Jesus’ body was laid. They brought the sweet-smelling spices they had prepared. 2 They saw that the heavy stone that covered the entrance had been rolled away. 3 They went in, but they did not find the body of the Lord Jesus.
Jewish Purification rituals, death and burial rituals????

I'm not sure why we are so deep into the simple act of baptizing someone by immersion in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit. It is simple, it is easy to do and it is part of the salvation process, per Jesus and the bible.
 
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Daniel Marsh

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Jewish Purification rituals, death and burial rituals????

I'm not sure why we are so deep into the simple act of baptizing someone by immersion in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit. It is simple, it is easy to do and it is part of the salvation process, per Jesus and the bible.

Ezekiel 36:25 Then I will sprinkle pure water on you and make you pure. I will wash away all your filth, the filth from those nasty idols, and I will make you pure.

The verse above is one of their baptismal options by God himself.
The availability of water is the key. This is witnessed by archaeology, ancient near eastern texts related to the OT. Other books on early texts related to the Bible, History, Church Fathers who were taught by the Apostles themselves. The reference to other purification rituals demonstrate that there was a wide range from Sprinkling to dunking.
 
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