The Two Witnesses

The Righterzpen

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The most popular answer would be Moses and Elijah since the former is known for the miracle of turning water into blood, while the latter for shutting the sky from raining

They never died actually. Elijah was taken up into heaven.

Moses body was never found, and Micheal was disputing with Satan about where the body is, so there is a good reason to believe Moses was also taken up to heaven.

Well, Moses and Elijah was recorded as appearing during Jesus Transfiguration correct? That is another piece of evidence that Moses is still alive now in heaven.

Any further offerings???

@Guojing - You make some very good point here.

To dig a little deeper; what do Moses and Elijah represent and why were they on the mount of Tranfiguration? Well the Scripture tells us that "the law came through Moses" and Elijah was a prophet. Now "the law and the prophet" testify to what? (Answer - Christ).

Now flip it - the disciples were sent out "two by two" - "you are my witnesses in the world". You have "two witnesses" on the OT side of the cross (the law and the prophets) and you have "two witnesses" on the NT side. (the "Church" / those atoned for / believing).

Here's another zinger to consider:

The "Church" has existed all through time. Anyone who's become a believer (regardless of when they lived) is part of the "ecclesiastic body" of Christ (since He was the "lamb slain from the foundations of the world"). The "law and the prophets" though have also existed throughout the course of time. Now the written revelation has not always existed, but the creation itself is a testimony to God's eternal power and redemption plan also. It is the "law and prophets" laid down in many formats. The "law" is written on the human conscience. The creation is governed by "law". The heavens "prophesy" the glory of God! It's all over the place. It's all around us. Those that believe it and testify to it are the "Church". They range all the way from Adam, to the last believer standing on Judgement Day.

Now the 1290 days they "prophecy". Is "3.5 years" / "3.5 days" their dead bodies are "in the streets". (There are a couple of (probably more than one / possibly more than two possibilities here.) The gospel was proclaimed 3.5 years. This was the meeting in time of the two sides of the coin and this is why those events were "the fulfillment of all things". This is part of the reason why Jesus says things like: "The kingdom of God is at hand (here).", "The kingdom of God is within you." It came for Adam in parabolic form and comes physically complete on Judgement Day.

Now why are the "law and prophets" "dead" for the time the Messiah is present preaching? (And what culminated at the end of His preaching? Answer: His own death.) When that which is promised is come, that which was in part is done away with. Why are they rejoicing at the death of the Messiah? (Because they hate God!) And who is it? "All the tribes of the earth."

So, who are "all the tribes of the earth" who rejoice at the death of the Messiah and why do they rejoice? (Keep in mind that the Scriptures often speak of things that happen in the spiritual realm of things that we don't see with our physical eyes.)

So why do the unregenerate rejoice? Because if the Messiah is dead (who is righteous) they think they've escaped judgement because at this point "all bets are off". If Christ does not rise from the dead, God has no justification to condemn the wicked (because He's condemned the just). And this is why the testimony of the "law and the prophets" as well as the "Church" has tormented these unredeemed for essentially the entire course of history.

So there's the "two witnesses". You have all that's revealed directly from God (law / creation; prophets / written Scripture) and those who testify to that power in their lives (believers). Both these "witness" hang on the "King pin".
 
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The Righterzpen

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Guojing

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Right. It is something that defies the laws of nature. Someone's eye infection suddenly getting better is not a miracle.

This is half the problem with the charismatic church today, they claim to be performing miracles but they are nothing of the sort. Instead of preaching the gospel, they spend all their time and efforts on trying to wow people with apparent supernatural activity, all with the showmanship of a David Copperfield performance, and all they have to show is people with headaches, backaches, and other minor or psychosomatic ailments showing some improvement. The people paralysed in wheelchairs are quietly ushered away.

One thing unique about Jesus's miracles, a number of them required no faith on the part of the receiver. Some even happened to his enemies, the well known one is the restoration of the ear belonging to the servant of the High Priest, that Peter cut off with his sword during Jesus's arrest. Its hard to imagine that guy having faith in the Lord healing him, yet his ear was fully restored.

Then of course, the signs described in Mark 16:17-18 did not put faith as a necessary requirement. For these sign gifts, I think most of us kind of believe that it has faded away.

Now God still heals, I agree, but its no longer so unconditional. We urge people to stand up and believe in faith, and when they do not manifest their healing, we tell them that they are already healed in the spirit and its only a matter of time before it manifest physically.

That is fine, I believe its correct, but it is quite clear that these types of healing are vastly different from what is written in Scripture.
 
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Guojing

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Exactly - but those with a 'gifts have ceased' theology will say thier works are of the devil.

There are actually many passages in the bible that says Jews need signs in order to believe. God himself also told them time and time again in the OT that signs are a way for them to prove who are truly sent by him and who aren't so I guess its legitimate for them to do so.

Here are the ones I have found so far.

Matthew 16:1-4

The Pharisees and Sadducees came up, and testing Jesus, they asked Him to show them a sign from heaven. But He replied to them, "When it is evening, you say, 'It will be fair weather, for the sky is red.' "And in the morning, 'There will be a storm today, for the sky is red and threatening.' Do you know how to discern the appearance of the sky, but cannot discern the signs of the times?

Mark 8:11-12

The Pharisees came out and began to argue with Him, seeking from Him a sign from heaven, to test Him. Sighing deeply in His spirit, He said, "Why does this generation seek for a sign? Truly I say to you, no sign will be given to this generation."

Matthew 12:38-39

Then some of the scribes and Pharisees said to Him, "Teacher, we want to see a sign from You." But He answered and said to them, "An evil and adulterous generation craves for a sign; and yet no sign will be given to it but the sign of Jonah the prophet;

Luke 11:29

Verse Concepts

As the crowds were increasing, He began to say, "This generation is a wicked generation; it seeks for a sign, and yet no sign will be given to it but the sign of Jonah.

Luke 11:16

Verse Concepts

Others, to test Him, were demanding of Him a sign from heaven.

Luke 12:54-56

And He was also saying to the crowds, "When you see a cloud rising in the west, immediately you say, 'A shower is coming,' and so it turns out. "And when you see a south wind blowing, you say, 'It will be a hot day,' and it turns out that way. "You hypocrites! You know how to analyze the appearance of the earth and the sky, but why do you not analyze this present time?

Luke 23:8

Verse Concepts

Now Herod was very glad when he saw Jesus; for he had wanted to see Him for a long time, because he had been hearing about Him and was hoping to see some sign performed by Him.

John 2:18

Verse Concepts

The Jews then said to Him, "What sign do You show us as your authority for doing these things?"

John 4:48

Verse Concepts

So Jesus said to him, "Unless you people see signs and wonders, you simply will not believe."

John 6:30

Verse Concepts

So they said to Him, "What then do You do for a sign, so that we may see, and believe You? What work do You perform?
 
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throughfiierytrial

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There is historical evidence of this being fulfilled that's "dead on" related to the last week of Christ's life. I can expound on that if you are interested in hearing it.
Yes, interested in hearing it if you wish to take the time to share...I have not read Daniel in quite some time.
 
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GTW27

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For what it is worth (I am not called to teach on end times) so this is a hunch only...

The two witnesses will be two ordinary 'Joe Blow' believers from the future underground church, at a future time after the third temple is built, and they will be anointed to bear witness literally in the way described in Rev 11. This is the second woe.
And perhaps these Two will share a bond like Jonathon and David, for Two are stronger than One, even if it is appointed for them to be overcome after their testimony is complete.
 
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The Righterzpen

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Yes, interested in hearing it if you wish to take the time to share...I have not read Daniel in quite some time.

Well, it's not going to be a short explanation; nor is it likely to be one you've ever heard before!

Atonement Time Table:

Daniel 9:27 says "And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week and in the middle of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and oblation to cease…"

Now a lot of Bible commentators ascribe this to a 7 year tribulation. Which is true that this passage ascribes to a tribulation; but that tribulation is (as stated here) is "for one week".

BUT - when we start looking at the gospels, we see some interesting things:

1. We have Mary anointing Jesus's feet "6 days before the Passover". (John 12:1) This occurred on the Friday (Thursday after sundown) prior to the sabbath that fell the day before the triumphant entry into Jerusalem. The seventh day would have been the day of the crucifixion.

Verse 24 of Daniel 9 says that "70 weeks are determined upon the people and upon the holy city…." Verse 27 states that this ends on "the consummation". The next time table we are given is "three score and two weeks" (62 weeks). Then another 8 weeks to the consummation.
The "consummation" is Pentecost.
70 weeks before that is the death of John the Baptist.
62 weeks from the death of John the Baptist, going toward Pentecost is the Friday before the crucifixion.

This lands us right were we started - 6 days before the Passover with Mary and anointing Jesus's feet. Jesus states (of this event) that "she has reserved this against the day of my burial". This commences what is called in the Scripture "the great tribulation".

2. Four days later, oil was poured over Jesus's head. This is after sundown Tuesday evening which is Wednesday (or "middle of the week") in the Hebrew way of counting days.

Jesus states this is done for his burial. (His burial commenced that night.) This is where the Messiah is "cut off" as is relayed to the passage in Daniel.

Exactly 3 days and 3 nights later Jesus is dead. This is the "three days and three nights in the heart of the earth". This event falls on the heels of the last day he spends in the temple teaching. That day, he spent healing, casting out demons and explaining to the people the destruction of the Jewish religion and warned them of future events surrounding the destruction of Jerusalem.

By the time we get to 70 AD (destruction of the temple) and 93 AD (Herod Agrippa II dies); we have the end of the nation. Jesus also makes some references to judgement day at the end of time; but states that he does not know when that will happen.

3. Within the context of the discussion of the dismantling of the old testament system and the destruction of Jerusalem, Jesus talks about the tribulation. (Matthew 24) He says that it will be cut short, because if it is not cut short, no flesh would be saved.

When was "flesh saved"? The redeemed were saved as part of the atonement.

So the tribulation commences with Mary anointing Jesus's feet and ends at the Passover. (It's cut short by a little less than a day.) So what happens at the end of the Passover? Jesus is confronted with the angel of death. Exodus says the angel of death will pass through the land at midnight.

Where is Jesus at midnight? He's in Gethsemane.

Now what is Gethsemane? A Gethsemane is a cave that houses an olive press. There were several Gethsemane(s) around the mount of olives because it was an olive grove and this is where they crushed the olives to make oil for the lamps in the temple. Contrary to popular belief "Gethsemane" was not a garden. Jesus was in a garden before he ends up in Gethsemane, but Gethsemane was not a garden. Now they went into this cave to escape the cold, because a lot of people stayed in these caves as lodging during the passover.

So, what happens while Jesus is in this Gethsemane? He's confronted with an angel. (Luke 22:43). Now the English says this angel "strengthens him" but the Greek actually says the angel "shows a display of strength (or force) before (against) him".

Next question: How is Jesus acting before he encounters this angel and how does he act after?

Jesus says "My soul is swallowed up in death…." and just prior to this he becomes "exceedingly sorrowful". This "sorrowfulness" is a process that's been happening for a couple of days now. It started Tuesday night after being "anointed for burial" and becomes progressively worse until the night of Passover.

The breath of life and the angel of death:

So if the breath of life is what makes a person "a living soul"; all the angel of death has to do is remove the breath of life and the person dies.

Now Jesus is confronted with the angel of death, but he doesn't physically die. Why is this? This is because of his Divine nature. Now if he didn't have a Divine nature, at this point he would have been physically dead; but since the Divine nature has yet to be severed from the human nature, he's still alive. For all intent and purpose though, his soul has been severed from his personhood; reserved in Sheol to await the death of his body. This is where he "preached to spirits in prison". (1 Pete 3:19) Also Acts 2:27 & 31 say "you have not left my soul in hell, nor will suffer your holy one (body) to see decay.

The next event to happen is the arrest, trial, beating, Peter's denial (3 AM), Pilate, Herod, Judas returns money to the temple is told "See to it yourself." Pilate, Barabbas, Pilate washes his hands before the public. Pilate also tells the public "See to it yourselves." The people say "Let his blood be on us and our children." (6 to 7 AM), condemnation, Judas goes and hangs himself, flogging, mocking, crucifixion (9 AM), sun darkened (noon), death, veil rent (3 PM), burial (before sundown), Saturday The Sabbath, resurrection (3 AM Sunday morning).

So from the point of the encounter with the angel of death, Jesus's soul is rent from his personhood. He goes through all the following events till just before his death pretty much emotionless.

The Crucifixion:

There are four things recorded that Jesus utters just before he dies, but of those 4 phrases the first one that is quasi comprehendible to anyone witnessing this is "Eli Eli lama sabach thani.". The priests think he's calling Elijah. The second phrase "I thirst." was probably only heard by the soldiers and is stated that he said this because he recognized "all had been accomplished". At that point he's given vinegar and hyssop; (which is a mild sedative); which he drinks. Prior to this he'd been given vinegar and sour wine, which he'd refused.

The next two phrases "Into your hands I commend my spirit" and "It is finished" are recorded for us as interpretations of what is intended, yet to the people witnessing this, it looks like delirious screaming. The Greek indicates that the noise Jesus makes sounds like the screeching of a crow. (He's breaking down cognitively at this point because his personhood is being destroyed.) Keep in mind that the sun is still darkened and has been darkened for about 3 hours.

Which phrase came first is unclear from the text, because the sequence is derived from combining the accounts in two different gospels. The "it is finished" is followed by "bowed the head"; which appears to be the last thing that happened.

The last thing recorded to occur just before death is "yielding up the ghost (or spirit)". The language here is interesting because the word "yielding" is most commonly translated as "betrayed" (turned over). The "spirit" that's being "betrayed" is defined as "his spirit". This is not a reference to the Holy Spirit because it would have been phrased differently if it was.

So this "spirit" appears to be the human component that "houses" conscious awareness of God and if "it is finished" was a reference to a spiritual awareness of being forsaken; it would make sense that "betray" (his) "spirit" would be the last conscious act Jesus would surrender to before the Divine nature is rent from the human body, thus causing his death. The veil in the temple was rent top to bottom simultaneously with Jesus dying; so thus I think is the symbolic indicator of his Divinity "torn" from his body.

Now returning for a minute to the phrase concerning the tribulation being shortened or no flesh would be saved. The tribulation ended with the encounter of the angel of death. That was the shortening there of.

Right after this angel departs, comes Judas and the posse to arrest Jesus. Peter pulls out his sword (this is actually the second time this happens) and whacks off the ear of the high priest's servant. The first time this happens (this was the first encounter in the winter garden) Jesus heals this servant. The second time this happens (in Gethsemane) he doesn't. Now is this the same servant who had his ear cut off twice? I don't know. If it is though, this would give some credence as to why Jesus didn't heal him again. The name of the servant given in John is Malchus. This is the Greek version of the Hebrew name Melek; which means "king".

After this, Jesus turns to Peter and says: "Do you think that I can not pray to my Father (right now) and he will send me more than 12 legions of angels? But how than should the Scripture be fulfilled? So this is how it must be." This clues us in on the fact that Jesus is aware that he doesn't have to do this. He could call it quits and go back to heaven and that would be the end of it; thus no flesh would be saved. This hearkens back to Jesus praying if this cup could pass from him; "Not my will but Yours be done".

Keep in mind that Jesus's soul has already been severed from his personhood and is in Hades. The fact that this happened is a mercy to the rest of us, because what Jesus is indicating here; is that if this hadn't happened, he would have quit because the process of being forsaken was more than his soul could deal with. Now at this point, it does not seem to me that Jesus is consciously aware of what his soul is "feeling"; although he is aware of what happened to it.

So in turn this could be why the English translators said this angel "strengthened" him; because in a round about way that's exactly what happened. He was strengthened through the "death" of his soul.

So what happened when Jesus died?

His soul was delivered from hell, joined his spirit (that he'd "betrayed") and in his human nature he stood before the Father as proof that he'd made it out of this ordeal without sinning. Revelation 5 - He's the lamb slain who appears in heaven to open the seals.

Jeremiah 30 talks about the "time of Jacob's trouble". This is also equated to in eschatological speak as "the tribulation". What is important to note about what Jeremiah says concerning Jacob's trouble is that "Jacob" is delivered from them on account of his own obedience.

Matthew 24:29-31 talks about what happens "immediately after the tribulation". Sun darkened, moon does not give light - this happened from noon to 3 PM on the day of the crucifixion. The stars fall from heaven and the powers of heaven are shaken. This is probably a reference to not just the severance of the two natures; but in that process Jesus the man is forsaken by the rest of the Godhead; and because of what he/He was created as, this is why the powers of heaven are shaken.

The next verse: "They shall see the sign of the son of man in heaven…" This is something that entities in heaven are looking down upon. Thus probably why the sun was darkened and the moon did not give its light. The creatures on earth can not see into heaven, but the entities in heaven can see what's going on down on earth; and what they are looking at is the crucifixion. They are watching Jesus die is what's going on.

How do we know this is what it means by "sign of the son of man in heaven"? Jesus makes a reference speaking to the Pharisees about "A wicked and adulterous generation seeks after a sigh, but the only sign given it will be the sign of the prophet Jonah; whereas Jonah was in the whale's belly 3 days and 3 nights, so shall the son of man be in the heart of the earth." Now we know when this happened. The 3 days and 3 nights started sundown Tuesday and ended when Jesus died Friday afternoon. So the only public display that occurred to this "wicked and adulterous generation" was the crucifixion.

The next part of this verse: "..then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn and they shall see the son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory."

This verse is not talking about the return of Christ to earth; it's talking about the ascension into heaven upon his death. The tribes of the earth that mourn are all the unregenerate souls who are in Sheol and see this happen. Once Jesus leaves Sheol all the redeemed on the old testament side of the cross go with him. They got their 'ticket to ride' - there they go! Revelation picks this up as: "a multitude that no man could number who came out of great tribulation." This is the "first resurrection over which the second death has no power". This first resurrection also includes those who come after, who live and die in the interim between Pentecost and judgement day.

Interestingly to note too is that these are "of every kindred, tribe, tongue and nation". They aren't just Israelites from the old testament side of the cross. These are people from around the globe; which explaining how people can be redeemed based on the testimony of creation alone, without ever having heard Scripture, is the subject of a whole other Bible study.

So that's what all that means and it's all taking place from the perspective of what is witnessed in the spiritual realm in both directions; earthly souls looking up and heaven looking down.

And there you have a historical account of the fulfillment of prophecy out of Daniel.
 
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Carl Emerson

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People always seek the signs and wonders, they want to see miracles. But then faith wouldn't be needed as much, it would cheapened when people depended on seeing and experiencing a miracle to believe, likened to a Carnival act.
There are miracles and when necessary, God works through chosen gifted people for his purpose.

Those in Him with faith don't need miracles to believe but when they come according to His will, it is a boost to faith. They are not seeking it, just acting in obedience and giving Glory to Him when He moves in this way.
 
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Carl Emerson

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Again, it is hearsay. There is a reason hearsay evidence is inadmissible in a court. It cannot be verified.

Has there been any peer-reviewed scientific evidence of someone who was certified dead (for days, not just a few minutes) being brought back to life?

BTW Praying for a miracle is not the gift of miracles. If you have to pray for a miracle it proves you do not have the gift of miracles. God can, and sometimes does, perform miracles in response to prayer.

My wife and children prayed for a friend who fell from a roof. The hospital confirmed that the Xray showed broken bones in his foot. He came home on crutches but was very concerned that he couldn't work. After prayer he could walk normally and didn't need the crutches. The following Sunday at church he testified to what had happened and to his surprise the Hospital Registrar was in the congregation and stood up to testify. He had supervised the treatment and confirmed that he saw the Xrays and without a miracle he would not be able to walk like he was. I can supply the name on a PM if needed.
 
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devin553344

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Those in Him with faith don't need miracles to believe but when they come according to His will, it is a boost to faith. They are not seeking it, just acting in obedience and giving Glory to Him when He moves in this way.

Satan trials against me are much less effective now because of witnessing God's hand. God works in mysterious ways, but it's clear to me why he has worked miracles in my life. Many good things come from Him.
 
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Carl Emerson

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C'mon, people will just say they are a very special case, which they are!

Well I believe that some are so bound up in their theology that they will insist works of God are of the devil. The theologically blind don't always 'see' the work of God when faced with it. Phariseeism is still very much alive.
 
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Carl Emerson

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It wasn't me who said an evil and adulterous generation seeks a sign, so don't shoot the messenger. If Jesus said that to unbelievers who were seeking miracles, then what more does it say to believers who should know better and should be walking by faith and not by sight.

Seeking signs is not the way to increase faith....

Matt. 12:39 But He answered and said to them, “An evil and adulterous generation craves for a sign;

Reading and studying God's word is the secret to growing in faith....

1 Peter 2:2 like newborn babies, long for the pure milk of the word, so that by it you may grow in respect to salvation

Maybe you forgot what you posted...
 
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devin553344

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Maybe you forgot what you posted...

Carl, do I understand this correctly? That seeking after a sign is the same as demanding a miracle from a representative of God? So as to prove their relationship to God?
 
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Carl Emerson

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Carl, do I understand this correctly? That seeking after a sign is the same as demanding a miracle from a representative of God? So as to prove their relationship to God?

I am inclined to believe that seeking a sign with an open heart in the right attitude is OK but demanding a sign in unbelief is a different thing...
 
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Carl Emerson

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AD 70 and not everyone believes the gifts cease. Don't put people in a box
That was not my position, I was just summarising the different positions that had been expressed.
Sorry for any misunderstanding.
 
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D.A. Wright

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However, Revelation 11 doesn't seem to imply a dual prophecy.
Upon what exactly do you base your assumption of lack of implication in the text?
Conversely, what would you see as implying a dual prophecy in Matthew 24 (in the text itself), which nearly the entirety of Christendom recognizes today?
 
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