CAN YOU LOSE YOUR SALVATION AND ETERNAL LIFE?

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klutedavid

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And all of them fell to false teaching in less than 100 years after the apostles died? Where was Jesus’ church that preached the “correct gospel” before 1500AD? Do you have any evidence of it outside of the scriptures? I’m sure you recall what Jesus said in Matthew 16:18? The gates of hell will not prevail against His church. So where was His church for the first 1500 years? Was it hiding behind the scene not bearing any fruit at all, or was it the same place it had always been? How is it that all of the apostolic churches within the first 100 years would adopt a foreign false gospel without any sign of resistance? Did evil prevail over all of His Church the first 1500 years?
From what I have read in the New Testament it appears that many of the churches had issues.

Some churches such as the Galatians had accepted an alternate gospel. The Corinthian church had assorted problems such as church divisions, the apostleship of Paul, e.t.c.

The question obviously can be fairly asked; were there any of these churches free of doctrinal problems?

The initial church had a variety of problems and even down to this day, things have not changed.
 
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zoidar

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I’ve shown you evidence on numerous occasions. How much do you want to see?

Btw it wasn't I who said that eternal security wasn't taught before the reformation. What I said was "The Bible says so, therefor the first Christians must have had this doctrine" is no good argument. Hammster stated that all Churches established by the apostles believed in eternal security, then he needs to back that up. The Bible says so is no proof.
 
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redleghunter

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Btw it wasn't I who said that eternal security wasn't taught before the reformation. What I said was "The Bible says so, therefor the first Christians must have had this doctrine" is no good argument. Hammster stated that all Churches established by the apostles believed in eternal security, then he needs to back that up. The Bible says so is no proof.
You may have missed it but he did post several passages, not out of context quotes, which established the doctrine. All from the Bible.
 
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zoidar

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You may have missed it but he did post several passages, not out of context quotes, which established the doctrine. All from the Bible.

Bible quotes alone don't prove what the Apostolic Fathers taught. Early Church writings prove what the Apostolic Fathers taught.

Or do you mean he quoted the Church Fathers? In that case, what post?
 
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Hammster

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Writings of the Early Church of course. If there is no mentioning of eternal security among the first Christians, wouldn't it be wise to reconsider other doctrines?
Not if it’s in scripture.
 
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Hammster

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Btw it wasn't I who said that eternal security wasn't taught before the reformation. What I said was "The Bible says so, therefor the first Christians must have had this doctrine" is no good argument. Hammster stated that all Churches established by the apostles believed in eternal security, then he needs to back that up. The Bible says so is no proof.
Well, I guess I wasn’t entirely correct. He did have to correct the churches in Galatia.
 
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Hazelelponi

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Then no one can fail to abide in Christ like Jesus said they absolutely can in John 15:6. No one can be broken off of the olive tree like Paul said in Romans 11:17-24. It all sounds really nice but it isn’t that fact of what the scriptures teach. How can anyone fail to abide in Christ if they were never in Christ to begin with? How can anyone who is truly in Christ fail to abide if they are predestined to persevere? What you said does not match what Jesus said in John 15.

When, in redemptive history did Jesus show up?

Hebrews 9:26 ".... But he has appeared once for all at the culmination of the ages to do away with sin by the sacrifice of Himself."

He came at the end or culmination of the age. What age?

The end of the Old Covenant in order to begin the New.

When we look there is a difference between the teaching to the Israelites during Jesus' life, and the teachings for all people after His work was finished.

We see, as we read the New Testament or New Covenant books, this transition from repentance and acceptance of the Messiah while still under the Temple law, and the later belief in the completed work of Christ and entrance into His Kingdom, not of this world....

The tree and grafting are not speaking of individuals, but rather people groups. Jews and Gentiles...Jews grafted out nationally due to rejection of the Messiah, Gentiles grafted in to bring the Jews to jealousy...

When individuals are spoken of we see passages like John 15:16

"You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you so that you might go and bear fruit--fruit that will last--and so that whatever you ask in my name the Father will give you."

and this was and still is certainly true. Those individuals God chooses go on to do great things.

People groups? Not so much... As people groups hanging onto a pure faith for any length of time is almost a ridiculous failure..

What do Gentiles look like now 2,000 years in? Any better than Jews? I'd say not.. but In the individual sense, we still have some giants of faith, many we don't even know their names.. but they go forth and went forth in the power of Christ yet today..

Individuals are that beautiful group worshipping God in heaven that are so numerous we cannot even count.

But now we speak not in people groups, but in individuals from all people groups and races, every tribe and tongue.. but individuals

God's people versus the world.
 
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Blade

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I personally think tradition is 1st here then whats written. I keep writing and then realize the op didn't come here to debate. Well my reason for that is when if you believe different.. for you its called a lie. Truth is not being looked at. "according to". Did you read what was said after that? Try to find what was said after "according to" in the word. You cant. Its not in the word. Whats being said is a personal belief. Find this in Heb 6, Heb 10 " all those who CONTINUE in KNOWN UNREPENTANT SIN will not enter into the KINGDOM of HEAVEN ". Not even what Paul was talking about.

We read Heb 1-5.. then the fact that these Jewish believers Paul was talking to.. many when they sinned would go back and offer a sacrifice for that sin. A..there is no more sacrifice for that sin. Can Christ die again. "there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins".

One should never based your salvation on what ANY man tells you what GODS word is really saying. HAHA sorry.. and I don't even believe OSAS nor I can lose my salvation. I was were have been saved.. The word says that. Jesus didn't even die yet and people treat many things He said like He as talking to CHRISTIANS! There were none.. nor Churches. He didn't tell that Christian "go and sin no more"..

So why not.. talk to sit and listen to the GOD Jesus Christ that is in you.. ask HIM to show YOU about this gift HE gave. Man had nothing to do with it. I don't put Him to open shame.. and I have no clue how many MILLIONS have died.. sinned forget to repent.. what ALL LOST!? pfft
 
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zoidar

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Well, I guess I wasn’t entirely correct. He did have to correct the churches in Galatia.

Ah, I thought we were talking about the Churches of the Apostolic Fathers. My bad, sorry...:doh:

Edit: Or were all Churches of the Apostolic Fathers established by the apostles?
 
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Hammster

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Bible quotes alone don't prove what the Apostolic Fathers taught. Early Church writings prove what the Apostolic Fathers taught.

Or do you mean he quoted the Church Fathers? In that case, what post?
Peter, Paul, etc were early church fathers.
 
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Hammster

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Ah, I thought we were talking about the Churches of the Apostolic Fathers. My bad, sorry...:doh:

Edit: Or were all Churches of the Apostolic Fathers established by the apostles?
There were only a few apostles.
 
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iLearn

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"....... I am of Paul; and I of Apollos......." and now its come to "I am of Zac".:rolleyes:
Well it is biblical to follow your elders. Paul said follow me as I follow Christ (1 Cor 11:1) I just lucky to follow and listen to a righteous person. Definitely I will never listen to someone who says your past, present, and future sins are always forgiven, which gives everyone the licence to indulge in all sorts of debaucheries, sexual immoralities, orgies, etc.

Jesus said if you sin pluck your eyes and cut your hand. That sounds serious.
 
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zoidar

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Peter, Paul, etc were early church fathers.

Yes, but it's not them we mean if we talk about the apostolic Fathers. We don't agree on doctrines of the Bible right? So why not discuss the writings of the generations after the apostles? If someone really knew the apostles writings, it got to be them, who else?
 
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redleghunter

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We were talking eternal security.
Clement of Rome:

“Whereas it is the will of God, that all whom he loves should partake of repentance, and so not perish with the unbelieving and impenitent, he has established it by his almighty will.’ But if any of those whom God wills should partake of the grace of repentance, should afterwards perish, where is his almighty will? And how is this matter settled and established by such a will of his?” (Ep. 1, ad Cor. p. 20).

Irenaeus:

“but the Spirit encompasses man within and without, as always abiding, and never leaves him,” (Iren. adv. Haeres. 1. 5, c. 12, p. 450; vide Fragm. Graec. ad Calcem Ireuaei.).

Origen:

“Our soul is enlightened either with the true light, which shall never be put out, which is Christ; or if it has not in it that light which is eternal, without doubt it is enlightened with a temporal and extinguishable light, by him who transforms himself into an angel of light,” (In Jud. homil.1, fol. 177, C; et in Malt. homil. 30, fol. 60, E.).

Athanasius:

“That phrase, as we are one, referring to John 17:11 means nothing else, than that the grace of the Spirit which the disciples had, might be never-failing and irrevocable,” (Contr. Arian. orat. 4, p. 477.).

“He received that the gift residing in him, grace might remain firm; for if men only had received, it was possible that it might be taken away again, which is shown in Adam, for what he received he lost; now that this grace might not he taken away, but be kept safe from men,’ therefore he made this gift his own, and says, that he received power as man, which he always had as God,” (contr. Arian. orat. 4, p. 490.).

Just a few.
 
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redleghunter

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Yes, but it's not them we mean if we talk about the apostolic Fathers. We don't agree on doctrines of the Bible right? So why not discuss the writings of the generations after the apostles? If someone really knew the apostles writings, it got to be them, who else?
So go by uninspired texts to check out Apostolic teachings?

What’s so unclear about the Bible?
 
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Guojing

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So go by uninspired texts to check out Apostolic teachings?

What’s so unclear about the Bible?

Actually, Paul himself wrote that, by the last few years of his life on Earth, his doctrine of OSAS has already been abandoned. It appears the Judaizers have won over many, including the Galatians.

2 Timothy 1:15 You are aware of the fact that all who are in Asia turned away from me, among whom are Phygelus and Hermogenes.

Later on in chapter 4

14 Alexander the coppersmith did me much harm; the Lord will repay him according to his deeds.1 Be on guard against him yourself, for he vigorously opposed our teaching. 16 At my first defense no one supported me, but all deserted me; may it not be counted against them.

Its indeed sad. But I am glad now many churches are rediscovering this once again.
 
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His student

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...I will never listen to someone who says your past, present, and future sins are always forgiven, which gives everyone the licence to indulge in all sorts of debaucheries, sexual immoralities, orgies, etc.
Believing that He Who began the good work in us will complete it - does not give a person a license to sin. I know of no one who holds that position.

I don't need the threat of Hell hanging over my head to keep me from sin.

I need the Holy Spirit Who has (fortunately) sealed me forever as a child of God and Who will never leave me nor forsake me.

We should refrain from sin out of gratitude for our salvation - not in order to earn it.

In fact if one holds the position that His salvation is based on his performance - it is, IMO, a pretty good sign that that person may have never rested in the work of Jesus Christ as his only hope of salvation. I.e. he has not been born again and it may be that he will hear from the Lord that He never knew him.
Jesus said if you sin pluck your eyes and cut your hand. That sounds serious.
It is serious.

Every human being (believer and non believer alike) will answer for every word and deed done while in the flesh. I know of no believer in eternal security who does not teach that.

Do you know of any who teach that believers will not have to account for what they did in the flesh - even since being born again?

If you do please provide a link to such a post.

Thanks.
 
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BNR32FAN

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The tree and grafting are not speaking of individuals, but rather people groups. Jews and Gentiles...Jews grafted out nationally due to rejection of the Messiah, Gentiles grafted in to bring the Jews to jealousy.

That’s incorrect friend there were many Jews who were not grafted out. The apostles were all Jews. Romans 11 is speaking about individuals. Not all of the Gentiles were grafted in either. The grafting in is contingent on believing. It’s in reference to individuals not nationalities.
 
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His student

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Well I was paraphrasing. He said we must abide in John 15:6 and He said we must endure in Matthew 24:13, Mark 13:13, Matthew 10:22.
Regarding the John 15 passage - you are assuming that the Father prunes branches that do not bear fruit by casting them to Hell. You are assuming that the "they" who cast branches so pruned is the Father Who disowns those sealed by His Holy Spirit when they became His children. I doesn't say that.

Regarding all of the other passages - you are committing the oft repeated error of saying that "all those who endure until the end will be saved" logically demands the conclusion that all those who do not endure until the end will not be saved. It does not logically follow.

It may well be that they will not be saved. You'd have to bring other scriptures to bear on the subject - because the passages do not teach that.

You are in a pretty populated company when it comes to committing this kind of logical error (not just from these passages) when it comes to trying to prove eternal security wrong.

I see this kind of logical errors all the time in this forum - and strangley enough they are almost always committed by those who are railing against so called "OSAS".

We all know what happens when we assume too much don't we? :)
 
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