South Dakota schools must display In God We Trust

Desk trauma · Aug 3, 2019

Deborah D said:
I understand where you're going with this.

Where does one get these mind reading devices that people on this forum so often claim to make us of?

Deborah D said:
Have you read the Bible?

Yes.

Deborah D said:
I would say that the central theme of the Bible is that God loves us so much that He has provided the means for us to be free. Jesus came and died on the cross to give us the truest kind of freedom that exists. And this true freedom is available to ALL people. It's no secret that most of our Founders were Christians, and their writings reflected a familiarity with the biblical principle of freedom.

John 8:31-36
So Jesus was saying to those Jews who had believed Him, “If you continue in My word, then you are truly disciples of Mine; 32and you will know the truth, and the truth will make you free.” 33They answered Him, “We are Abraham’s descendants and have never yet been enslaved to anyone; how is it that You say, ‘You will become free’?”

34Jesus answered them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone who commits sin is the slave of sin. 35“The slave does not remain in the house forever; the son does remain forever. 36“So if the Son makes you free, you will be free indeed.

Luke 4:16-21
He came to Nazareth, where He had been brought up. As usual, He entered the synagogue on the Sabbath day and stood up to read. The scroll of the prophet Isaiah was given to Him, and unrolling the scroll, He found the place where it was written:

The Spirit of the Lord is on Me,
because He has anointed Me
to preach good news to the poor.
He has sent Me
to proclaim freedom to the captives
and recovery of sight to the blind,
to set free the oppressed,
to proclaim the year of the Lord’s favor.
He then rolled up the scroll, gave it back to the attendant, and sat down. And the eyes of everyone in the synagogue were fixed on Him. He began by saying to them, “Today as you listen, this Scripture has been fulfilled.”

Galatians 5:1
It is for freedom that Christ has set us free. Stand firm, then, and do not let yourselves be burdened again by a yoke of slavery.

I don't see how those verses says that people should have religious liberty.

carlv_52 · Aug 3, 2019

Mountainmanbob said:
Let us remember
a very few participated.

And none of us alive today
had anything to do with it.

Listening to some of these people
you would think it happened last week.

M-Bob

I thought haikus were mostly 5-7-5

carlv_52 · Aug 3, 2019

Deborah D said:
Like I said my views on this differ from yours. I will be happy to discuss this with you later when I'm up to it. Thanks for understanding.

I would greatly value that! Because of many of the things in the Bible that I really value, Luke 6:31 is a biggy. It's a fantastic teaching.

carlv_52 · Aug 3, 2019

Deborah D said:
It's true that the Founders did not want a state-mandated religion, and I agree with them about this. But to deny that they founded of our nation on Christian principles is to deny our true history. I appreciate that Franklin and other Founders officially requested God's intervention, and it shows in our Constitution, which really is an amazing document.

And in saying this you elevate one religion over another. Which is fine for you because it is your religion that is elevated. But the whole point of no religion in the public square is to protect all the religions, even yours from being elevated arbitrarily AND from being harmed in some way by mandate.

You can think America was founded on the Christian faith but in reality many of the founders were Christian in a rather different way you probably are. Many were deists and I'm rather certain that you would not be comfortable being told that deism is the correct version of Christianity. Jefferson himself went through the New Testament and pulled out all the "miraculous" material for his own purposes. Jefferson and many of the other Founders were also adherents to the "Enlightenment" and a rational form of religious belief in their view. This is where we get the separation of church and state. That is as much to protect your right to belief in God as it is to protect those with whom you disagree.

So why should one religion suddenly be able to take public funding to mount plaques and raise itself over others? Even if you feel it is perfect Truth, you MUST know there are people who are not like you.

And if you believe in the word of God then you will know that if you support that being done to others, then you most assuredly want it done to you one day. You are telling God that one day you want your tax money to go to erecting a giant praise to Al'lah and Islam.

That is what you clearly want if you support it being done the other way 'round.

OR, maybe we could TRULY HONOR what Jefferson and the Founders actually wanted: the freedom of ALL PEOPLE (INCLUDING AND ESPECIALLY YOU) to worship and believe as you wish without the State stepping in.

Shiloh Raven · Aug 3, 2019

MyOwnSockPuppet said:
I'm just imagining a public school principal playing a recording of the Adhaan over the intercom.

I'd be able to hear the screaming and wailing and gnashing of teeth from here.

It's easy enough: either One in, All in or One out, All out.

As a liberal Christian and political activist, I have noticed one common belief being steadily expressed among many evangelical conservative Christians when it concerns the religious freedom of unbelievers (and Christians who aren't evangelical) and that is "Religious freedom for me, but none for thee!"

Nithavela · Aug 3, 2019

That should cut school shootings down by at least 20%.

bèlla · Aug 3, 2019

The issue with this is the precedent it sets for other teachings to enter schools. Throwing a bone for a plaque is meaningless if what follows is nefarious. This gives them the ability to portray tolerance with one hand while undermining values with the other.

Shiloh Raven · Aug 3, 2019

Speedwell · Aug 3, 2019

Deborah D said:
All people don't need to believe as I do unless what I believe is THE TRUTH.

Why are we to suppose that is the case?

keith99 · Aug 3, 2019

Deborah D said:
That's why God gave us His written Word--the Bible. So that we can KNOW who He is, how He thinks, so that we can know HIM.

You do realize the Bible was selected by men a score of decades after Christ. The Mormons have a far better claim that their sacred book came directly from God.

keith99 · Aug 3, 2019

carlv_52 said:
And in saying this you elevate one religion over another. Which is fine for you because it is your religion that is elevated. But the whole point of no religion in the public square is to protect all the religions, even yours from being elevated arbitrarily AND from being harmed in some way by mandate.
...

No, religion in the public square is not prohibited or even discouraged. State sponsorship of religion both in the public square and elsewhere is what is prohibited. Those are very different things.

The state does not prohibit or discourage praying on street corners, though Jesus did not speak well of it.

carlv_52 · Aug 3, 2019

keith99 said:
No, religion in the public square is not prohibited or even discouraged. State sponsorship of religion both in the public square and elsewhere is what is prohibited. Those are very different things.

Your pedantry is appreciated.

The state does not prohibit or discourage praying on street corners, though Jesus did not speak well of it.

You made your point with the FIRST paragraph. thanks

Kentonio · Aug 4, 2019

Am I missing something or isn't this just going to be overturned in the Supreme Court like the last dozen times? Feels like pointless posturing.

Desk trauma · Aug 4, 2019

Kentonio said:
Am I missing something or isn't this just going to be overturned in the Supreme Court like the last dozen times? Feels like pointless posturing.

Off the top of my head I think that displaying the motto passes muster but the weaseling around about intent and meaning to get it past the courts is disgustingly disingenuous.

DaisyDay · Aug 4, 2019

Deborah D said:
Actually, the Framers of the Constitution were at an impasse, so Franklin urged them to pray to God for his help in drafting the document that is now used to keep God out of our public schools. When I was in elementary school, our principal said a prayer on the PA system every morning. This is our heritage as a Christian nation. You may not like our history, but no one should rewrite it. It's dishonest.

It's been rewritten and embellished quite a bit over the years.
The Franklin Prayer Myth

Deborah D · Aug 4, 2019

DaisyDay said:
It's been rewritten and embellished quite a bit over the years.
The Franklin Prayer Myth

This is source cited for the Franklin quote that I used:

The Avalon Project: The Madison Debates. Yale University, 1996-2007.

The Debates in the Federal Convention of 1787, Reported by James Madison, a delegate from the state of Virginia. Ed. by Gaillard Hund and James Brown Scott, Oxford University Press, 1920.

Speedwell · Aug 4, 2019

Deborah D said:
This is source cited for the Franklin quote that I used:

The Avalon Project: The Madison Debates. Yale University, 1996-2007.

The Debates in the Federal Convention of 1787, Reported by James Madison, a delegate from the state of Virginia. Ed. by Gaillard Hund and James Brown Scott, Oxford University Press, 1920.

So, OK, you think this is a Christian nation. Which Christianity?

hedrick · Aug 4, 2019

Kentonio said:
Am I missing something or isn't this just going to be overturned in the Supreme Court like the last dozen times? Feels like pointless posturing.

It is certainly not pointless. It's an attempt to get votes from people who care more about their ideology than the constitution. There are enough of those to be worth courting.

Deborah D · Aug 5, 2019

DaisyDay said:
It's been rewritten and embellished quite a bit over the years.
The Franklin Prayer Myth

This article explains the controversy surrounding Franklin's appeal for prayer at the Constitutional Convention.

Franklin’s Appeal for Prayer at the Constitutional Convention - WallBuilders

The following is a quote from Franklin's appeal (emphasis in bold added by me to show biblical references):

In this situation of this Assembly, groping as it were in the dark to find political truth, and scarce able to distinguish it when presented to us, how has it happened, Sir, that we have not hitherto once thought of humbly applying to the Father of lights to illuminate our understandings? In the beginning of the Contest with G. Britain, when we were sensible of danger we had daily prayer in this room for the divine protection. ”Our prayers, Sir, were heard, and they were graciously answered. All of us who were engaged in the struggle must have observed frequent instances of a Superintending providence in our favor. To that kind providence we owe this happy opportunity of consulting in peace on the means of establishing our future national felicity. And have we now forgotten that powerful friend? I have lived, Sir, a long time, and the longer I live, the more convincing proofs I see of this truth-- that God governs in the affairs of men. And if a sparrow cannot fall to the ground without his notice, is it probable that an empire can rise without his aid? We have been assured, Sir, in the sacred writings, that “except the Lord build the House they labour in vain that build it.” I firmly believe this; and I also believe that without his concurring aid we shall succeed in this political building no better than the Builders of Babel: We shall be divided by our little partial local interests; our projects will be confounded, and we ourselves shall become a reproach and bye word down to future ages. And what is worse, mankind may hereafter from this unfortunate instance, despair of establishing Governments be Human Wisdom and leave it to chance, war and conquest.

Speedwell · Aug 5, 2019

Deborah D said:
This article explains the controversy surrounding Franklin's appeal for prayer at the Constitutional Convention.

Franklin’s Appeal for Prayer at the Constitutional Convention - WallBuilders

The following is a quote from Franklin's appeal (emphasis in bold added by me to show biblical references):

In this situation of this Assembly, groping as it were in the dark to find political truth, and scarce able to distinguish it when presented to us, how has it happened, Sir, that we have not hitherto once thought of humbly applying to the Father of lights to illuminate our understandings? In the beginning of the Contest with G. Britain, when we were sensible of danger we had daily prayer in this room for the divine protection. ”Our prayers, Sir, were heard, and they were graciously answered. All of us who were engaged in the struggle must have observed frequent instances of a Superintending providence in our favor. To that kind providence we owe this happy opportunity of consulting in peace on the means of establishing our future national felicity. And have we now forgotten that powerful friend? I have lived, Sir, a long time, and the longer I live, the more convincing proofs I see of this truth-- that God governs in the affairs of men. And if a sparrow cannot fall to the ground without his notice, is it probable that an empire can rise without his aid? We have been assured, Sir, in the sacred writings, that “except the Lord build the House they labour in vain that build it.” I firmly believe this; and I also believe that without his concurring aid we shall succeed in this political building no better than the Builders of Babel: We shall be divided by our little partial local interests; our projects will be confounded, and we ourselves shall become a reproach and bye word down to future ages. And what is worse, mankind may hereafter from this unfortunate instance, despair of establishing Governments be Human Wisdom and leave it to chance, war and conquest.

Can you remind us what you think that proves?

South Dakota schools must display In God We Trust

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